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Panasonic going full frame

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Old Friday 31st August 2018, 19:27   #1
nikonmike
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Panasonic going full frame

https://www.43rumors.com/ft5-panason...-september-25/
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Old Friday 31st August 2018, 19:37   #2
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Now that would be interesting....I have a full frame DSLR, but I've always liked the way Panasonic do things (I also have a FZ1000)
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Old Friday 31st August 2018, 20:58   #3
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Originally Posted by nikonmike View Post
Using the Leica SL mount and existing Leica lenses perhaps? Sound nice but expensive.

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Old Saturday 1st September 2018, 03:24   #4
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Likely more interesting for landscape than for bird photography

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Old Friday 7th September 2018, 09:18   #5
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Apparently not using Leica SL mount.

https://www.43rumors.com/ft4-new-pan...in-march-2019/

Olympus sticking to MFT sensor it seems:

https://www.43rumors.com/ft5-the-new...ew-mft-sensor/
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Old Friday 7th September 2018, 23:47   #6
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Seems silly to me.
Leica has been doing lenses for Panasonic for years, what is the advantage of offering two incompatible mounts from the same stable?
More generally, it seems peculiar that mounts have proliferated while unit sales are stagnant. Is there any plausible logic for this?
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Old Saturday 8th September 2018, 01:18   #7
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Certainly a plethora of mounts, though largely dictated by the physics required.

This is no VHS style industry collaboration - hopefully if this rumour is true, Panasonic might adopt the Nikon Z mount dimensions ..... 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' .......

If anything, I think this will all be about 8K broadcasting ..... eventually.

Certainly HD, maybe aiming for 4K reporting at the 2020 Olympics, so setting up the FF format and mount for that now .....
https://www.redsharknews.com/product...-for-broadcast
"Low noise is a key to more dynamic range, because detail can be pushed out of shadows in the grade."




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Old Saturday 22nd September 2018, 15:31   #8
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This is looking interesting, two cameras 3 lenses to start with, L mount so if you have the money Leica lenses will fit and Sigma in with them promising lenses.

They are saying pixel shift on one of them will give 150mb files, IBS.
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Old Saturday 22nd September 2018, 16:04   #9
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To me, expanding their collaboration with Leica was the only logical way that Pana could go full frame and potentially succeed. Still, I don't see this as interesting from a birding point of view for a long time yet (due to lack of a really long lens). Even if the sigma 150-600 gets an L-mount variant, that is not the same reach as my PL100-400 on a m43 camera.

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Old Saturday 22nd September 2018, 17:00   #10
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Question

Is the Leica L mount confirmed?
That would hamstring the development long term compared to the Nikon Z and even Canon RF.

Sharing the Nikon Z mount would have been a master stroke that would open up a whole host of possibilities. I'm not sure how that would go down with the terms of any agreements with Leica though .......



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Old Saturday 22nd September 2018, 18:16   #11
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"And so all cards are on the table now: ON September 25 Leica, Sigma and Panasonic will announce a new profound partnership. Together they will develop cameras and lenses based on the Leica SL mount."

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/wtf...camera-system/

"The L-Mount has an inner diameter of 48.8mm and a flange depth of 20.0mm [2] The L-mount exists in two versions, an APS-C version (TL) and a full frame version (SL). The two versions are mechanically and electronically compatible. TL lenses mounted on the SL will cause the camera to use a 10 Mpix crop-mode from the center of the sensor, corresponding to the APS-C coverage of the lens. SL lenses mounted on TL cameras function normally, providing a 1.5x crop field of view, as is typical with APS-C cameras."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leica_L-Mount

I guess Sigma could adapt their long lenses pretty quick.
But maybe this will be more video-centric cameras.
I don't doubt that Panasonic will make the best FF mirrorless video centric camera on the market though
with large controls & good ergonomics (Sony hint..),
no 1.7x crop in 4k (Canon hint..), dual card slots (Nikon hint..),
and excellent battery life (Fujifilm hint..).

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Old Saturday 22nd September 2018, 19:13   #12
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Well, that's interesting then !

The Leica SL mount is very similar dimensionally to Sony's FE mount. Neither is in the box seat compared to Nikon's Z mount which is the most well thought out and future proof FF mirrorless mount.

Where Nikon will run into difficulties strategically will be in getting lenses to market to flesh out the Z system ostensibly on its own (Tamron, Tokina seem the only viable third partys for purpose designed lenses).

I wish Nikon would have paid more attention to me and done more to wrap Panasonic up in it's Z mount.

The situation going forward now is that Sigma will 'probably' design lenses for the Sony /Panasonic mounts, and then slightly adapt for Canon and Nikon via empty space at the mount end. This means slightly longer and heavier lenses for Canon and Nikon than purpose designed jobbies.

I also expect a strong product response from Sony to these 3 late comers to the FF mirrorless scene -- so a pretty good time to be a camera gear head and photographer



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Old Saturday 22nd September 2018, 21:32   #13
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Chosun, if you are not aware, Pana has a long-standing relationship with Leica. There were rumors that the Leica FF mirrorless was mostly Pana design when it appeared, just as some of the smaller Leica cameras lately have been more or less indistinguishable from Pana cameras. At the lens side, several of the best m43 lenses from Pana carry both names.

I have not seen Nikon have a similar relationship with anybody. However, Sigma has a tradition of making lenses for all mounts that sell well enough that it pays, so if nikon's mirrorless starts selling then I would guess you could get sigma lenses for that as well.

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Old Sunday 23rd September 2018, 04:06   #14
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Hi Niels, yes, I'm well aware of the relationship between Panasonic and Leica, and the 'badge engineering' involved.

This deal makes sense for Sigma since it could quite easily convert it's existing lenses from its Sony range.

The FF mirrorless lens mount battle is now pretty much split down the middle in terms of physical dimensions - Sony/Pana/Leica v's Canon/Nikon. The first group has a good population of lenses (and/or easier conversions), while the second group's lens range is in its infancy and will take quite some effort and time to populate.

It is interesting when you look at who makes up the groups too - the first group are the electronics upstarts - with a long history of competition between the two (along with collaborations with traditional camera makers Leica and Olympus), while the second group consists of the traditional camera industry stalwarts - again huge competitors with each other. Very interesting the way it has panned out !

As far as third party lenses will now go for the CaNikon mirrorless offerings they will either fall into one of two camps:
(i) they will be converted (rather involved) from the existing Sony range, and be less than ideal (in terms of compactness, weight, cost, and that last bit of optical performance) compared to what the mounts could offer, but will appear much sooner than the second case .....
(ii) lenses will be purpose designed for the wider ('shallower' for Nikon too) mount. This will result in lenses that are just that tiny bit more compact, lighter, cheaper to produce (notice I didn't say buy ! :), and maximize the optical benefits of these wider optimal mounts (this will be particularly evident at wide and fast formats). This road of course will take longer to travel.

Any third party lens maker is going to have to come up with something pretty special to outdo the CaNikon duo - look for some cheeky offerings that plug the gaps. The mirrorless market is going to be a bit of a 'bitzer' going forward and take a very slow evolutionary path.

I don't think any of the big camera brands has (or will in the short term) landed the knock out blow to lure customers from rival brands (and to a lesser extent, systems). It will be a terse (and at times both exciting and frustrating for the consumer) battle for hearts, minds, and wallets over the ensuing years.

Ultimately Nikon has put itself in the box seat, but I wouldn't expect them to become dominant (in performance terms of the market) due to resources/lack of partners, until this flat plane sensor caper is nearly done and dusted and then the whole game starts anew in a decade in the curved sensor arena ........


I expect a strong product response from Sony if they are to be any hope of retaining let alone increasing their market share. Interesting, good, (if not exactly cheap ) times to be a buyer in the mirrorless market going forward




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Old Sunday 23rd September 2018, 05:32   #15
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The downside to these new offerings is that they remain bulky. They don't change the equation sufficiently to attract a new range of buyers. Yet we now have at least 4 entrants into a stagnant market.
That spells profit squeeze and probable shakeout.
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Old Sunday 23rd September 2018, 08:21   #16
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The strategy is to keep existing customers.
For Panasonic it's crucial not loosing more customers to the FF offerings.

This camera will most likely add to the top end of the Panasonic line.
Same feature set as the GH5 or even GH5S hopefully but with IBIS.
Price point will be very interesting to see.
Probably closer to 3k (or 3k+) than 2k €.
A bit less expensive FF models might follow, but I'm not sure of that.
MFT format will stay put in the low and mid segment.

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Old Sunday 23rd September 2018, 18:15   #17
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The rumor site claims two models to start with, a high and a more entry level, both with IBIS, and one with
– 150 Megapixel stills in Pixel Shift mode and price below Sony A9, the other more ordinary. https://www.43rumors.com/ft5-more-pa...ctured-sensor/

Niels (who still don't think FF will be in my future)
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Old Monday 24th September 2018, 08:52   #18
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Seems that that PanaLeica is going directly at the Nikon Z6/Z7:s and not Canon R.
Guess the entry level might be around $2k+ like the Z6 and the $4,000 model will compete with Z7.
How these will be positioned vs the G9, GH5 and GH5S will be interesting to see, feature set etc.
50MP is really not optimal or even needed for 4K or low light video. Maybe they will be more stills oriented cameras but with clearly better video features than Nikon and Canon? And GH5S will remain the "semi to pro-videographers" option?

"Panasonic high End Full Frame camera
– Close to 50 Megapixels
– L-mount
– Panasonic designed and manufactured sensor
– 4k60p
– IBIS
– 150 Megapixel stills in Pixel Shift mode
– Dual card slot (one card should be SD)
– Price below the Sony A9 (close to $4,000)

Panasonic entry level Full Frame camera
– 20+ megapixels
– L-mount
– Panasonic designed and manufactured sensor
– 4k60p
– IBIS
– Dual card slot (one card should be SD)

Panasonic FF lenses
– 24-70mm
– 70-200mm
– 50mm"

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/new...-camera-specs/

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Old Monday 24th September 2018, 09:58   #19
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Whether the 'entry' level models are 24 or 30MP doesn't matter that much. It's clear that all the big players are going for pretty much identical 'two tier' type product strategies. If the hi-res models offer over sampling for 4K video rather than binning, that will prove useful.

I tend to agree with etudiant, whether we see pixel shift, even higher resolutions of 70~100MP+, hi-speed sports models a 'la Sony's a9, 8K, or even finally perfected global shutter and the elimination of the mechanical mechanism, there's really not that much compelling advances to significantly grow the market. Lightweight high quality lenses like the new Canon Mk III's, Sony 400 2.8 GM, and the diffractive Canon DO's (hurry up the 600 f4 !) and Nikon PF's (c'mon the 600 and then f4's !) will be key .....

It will be a dog fight for scraps - even among the big 4/5 ..... I wouldn't like to be smaller players like Pentax etc ......




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Old Tuesday 25th September 2018, 12:40   #20
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S1R (47MP) and S1 (24MP) are the new models for 2019. They look pretty close to the G9 in size and controls.

No phase detect on sensor for AF it seems. Only Contrast detect, DFD and "AI Deep Learning" is mentioned.

Dual card slots (XQD + SD).

Dual IS (lens + IBIS).

Operates in low temperature, I thought they said -40C but not sure...that's pretty cold...

100 environmental seals against moisture and dust.

Lumix pro services & support expanded: https://lumixpro.panasonic.com

S1 with 24MP seems to be the video centric version.

Very limited info on lenses, first three are 50/1.4, 24-100mm and 70-200mm.

The L-mount has 51.6* mm diameter, Nikon Z:s 55 mm and Sony E 46mm. Seems like a reasonable compromise to me. The use for f0.95 or even f1.2 lenses is quite limited IMO.

Panasonics press event:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuxXBRLaqyw

*L-mount:

https://l-mount.com/en/Q-and-A

It is equally suitable for both APS-C format and full-frame cameras. The advantages are a large inner diameter of 51.6 mm that enables the realisation of extremely fast lenses and, at the same time, extremely compact dimensions that permit the construction of compact APS-C format system cameras.
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Old Tuesday 25th September 2018, 13:40   #21
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There's no doubt that the 48.8mm [EDIT: or is it 51.6mm? as I have read elsewhere - L mount alliance release] dia/ 20mm FFD mount of the Leica L is a compromise that's not quite as good as Nikon's 55mm/ 16mm - which allows more optical train efficiencies (marginally smaller, lighter lenses), and not just (but mostly) for wide and/or fast lenses.

What it does do though, as I have said above, is give Panasonic a flying start in populating it's lens line up - particularly with Sigma on board and the work they have done for the very similar dimensioned Sony FE mount and the large range of lenses that already exist for that. With this choice of L lens mount, Panasonic will neatly leapfrog Nikon next year in the mirrorless lens range quantity available.

It seems that Panasonic are going to be quite the force. FF 4K60p is pretty cool and 8K is clearly programmed into the strategic road map for the 2020 Tokyo Olympics ....

The only question for me is how well the Contrast Detect, and DFD AF system will work comparitively (relative to Nikon and Sony, plus Canon too).

The other thing after watching the vid is I'm still none the wiser on the EVF spec. Everyone is claiming 'leading' and 'top resolution' performance, but the Nikon / Sony / Canon offerings are a virtually identical 3.6MP, yet the Leica SL (Typ601) has been out with a 4.4MP EVF for over a year now ! I wonder if the top spec Panasonic S1r sports that one too ?




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Last edited by Chosun Juan : Tuesday 25th September 2018 at 15:49. Reason: 48.8mm or 51.6mm dia for L mount ??
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Old Tuesday 25th September 2018, 19:01   #22
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
There's no doubt that the 48.8mm [EDIT: or is it 51.6mm? as I have read elsewhere - L mount alliance release] dia/ 20mm FFD mount of the Leica L is a compromise that's not quite as good as Nikon's 55mm/ 16mm - which allows more optical train efficiencies (marginally smaller, lighter lenses), and not just (but mostly) for wide and/or fast lenses.

What it does do though, as I have said above, is give Panasonic a flying start in populating it's lens line up - particularly with Sigma on board and the work they have done for the very similar dimensioned Sony FE mount and the large range of lenses that already exist for that. With this choice of L lens mount, Panasonic will neatly leapfrog Nikon next year in the mirrorless lens range quantity available.

It seems that Panasonic are going to be quite the force. FF 4K60p is pretty cool and 8K is clearly programmed into the strategic road map for the 2020 Tokyo Olympics ....

The only question for me is how well the Contrast Detect, and DFD AF system will work comparitively (relative to Nikon and Sony, plus Canon too).

The other thing after watching the vid is I'm still none the wiser on the EVF spec. Everyone is claiming 'leading' and 'top resolution' performance, but the Nikon / Sony / Canon offerings are a virtually identical 3.6MP, yet the Leica SL (Typ601) has been out with a 4.4MP EVF for over a year now ! I wonder if the top spec Panasonic S1r sports that one too ?

Chosun
51.6mm seems to be the correct value on the L-mount diameter. Fixed it in my post. Dpreview seem to be a bit dubious about the diameter as well though.

"The company says the 24MP S1 is expected to be used around 70% for stills and 30% for video, targeting people such as wedding photographers and photojournalists. The S1R will be "purely for photographers," the company says, with landscape, commercial and portrait photographers being explicitly named."

"Following the decision of Canon and Nikon to use short, wide mounts, it's interesting to see Panasonic opt into a mount that's considerably narrower (around 50mm, rather than the 54mm of Canon's R mount). We asked Panasonic about this and were told: "Leica designed the original 35mm camera: they know what they're doing."

"Panasonic stressed that it will continue to sell and develop the Micro Four Thirds system in parallel with its L-mount system, which will be targeted at high-end users."

https://www.dpreview.com/news/318725...we-know-so-far

To me it seems pretty clear that there will be no 600mm/f4 or similar telephoto lenses for the S-system in a foreseeable future.

I guess the competition would be too tough in the sports/wildlife area.
That closes the case pretty much for me and I would rather pic up a X-T3 and use it for
anything that Panasonic say the S-system is about. IQ & video is that good on the Fuji,
and it's only $1500 and lenses are smaller, lighter and cheaper (most likely).

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Old Tuesday 25th September 2018, 22:29   #23
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I guess you guys already have visited https://www.l-rumors.com/ and seen the sigma announcement of what they are doing.

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Old Wednesday 26th September 2018, 09:52   #24
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Panasonic seem to be late to the mirrorless FF party with a bigger camera than ever before. Not many will buy a camera that has no lenses and current MFT enthusiasts will not be overly happy about the increasing size & weight? The Sigma FF lenses are not famous for being small and light to say the least.

The only hope is that Olympus join in on the L-mount and makes a compact a APS-C camera with a 600mm/f5.6 PF! Maybe the'll even get it out on the market before Nikon! ;-)

"...promised simultaneous launch date for both models of “early 2019”." is mentioned but also "that more information will be released early 2019". So to me the release date is not clear at all.

"Panasonic are also publishing a lens roadmap, with 10 lenses in total due for release by the end of 2020, a promising start."

"The Panasonic S1R/S1 is a physically big camera, and the 50mm f/1.4 is a physically big lens. Panasonic’s new full-frame system is quite a lot bigger than Sony’s and Nikon’s, being more akin to Canon’s in size with regards to both the body and the lens"

"Panasonic also told us that more companies may follow and join the L-mount Alliance, if they apply and meet the standards."

https://www.photographyblog.com/revi...st_impressions

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Old Wednesday 26th September 2018, 10:27   #25
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What is the advantage going ff mirrorless for bird photography as long lenses seem to be either scarce or expensive (or both) for those camera's from Panasonic, Sony, Olympus and pentax? + you have less reach with FF?
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