Southern Migrant Hawker?!? (1 Viewer)

Insect News: a male Southern Migrant Hawker at Hadleigh Castle Country Park, Essex until 12:15 when obtained by a collector. TQ788857.

Is that allowed?

Jon

The message that came up was that it was taken for the British Museum, hopefully this was the case, but even so it does seem odd and I'm glad you have asked the question above. After all we do not shoot and stuff the new bird species in the UK anymore so are insects different?

See here: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=176708

Its a shame we don't collect first for Britain as we would know one way or the other what the Druidge bay Curlew was.

Mike.

Dog said:

Its a shame we don't collect first for Britain as we would know one way or the other what the Druidge bay Curlew was.

Mike.

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It was a Slender-billed Curlew |>|

StuartReeves said:

See here: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=176708

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Post 44 the first mention of this.

I'm taking my 'gadder' and a 59p fishing net from Franks fishing fodder with me on this weekends Scilly pelagic incase we get a White-bellied Petrel....purely for scientific purposes!

Dog said:

Its a shame we don't collect first for Britain as we would know one way or the other what the Druidge bay Curlew was.

Mike.

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and you would have to be happy to see a dead bird ?

I saw 2 male southerm migrant hawkers on Sunday and they were superb - made my family week's holiday. Shocked that a specimen has been taken. This seems to still occur with plant, butterfly and dragonfly collectors. Beware putting non-bird news out on pager services! PS: nice comment on the slender-billed curlew ... but then I did see it so might be hovering in the pro camp. Sorry Dog!

Thinking about the original question, I suspect that vagrant species such as southern migrant hawker will fall through the loop hole so to speak - won't be on the UK BAP list. Even though it looks like this is a hatch of dragonflies and therefore breeding.

Megsonmen said:

I saw 2 male southerm migrant hawkers on Sunday and they were superb - made my family week's holiday. Shocked that a specimen has been taken. This seems to still occur with plant, butterfly and dragonfly collectors. Beware putting non-bird news out on pager services! PS: nice comment on the slender-billed curlew ... but then I did see it so might be hovering in the pro camp. Sorry Dog!

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Graham, I must give you a bell one day soon & see how your China trip went & for a change it was a neutral comment on the Curlew.

Mike.

Hope the comment on the Curlew was not serious..otherwise not really from a genius...
Indeed, if it was then you would have killed one of the last SBC just to tick or not to tick it...!!

GREAT ...simply foolish !!!

And...you do not need to collect it to know that IS NOT a SBC !!

In any case , and I say ANY...its better to leave apart a record, and to have doubts and not know what a bird or an animal is rather then kill it and know...

Generally speaking, scientific collecting is quite often essential for the overall conservation and understanding of a species. How much less would we know now about all wildlife if it weren't for the all the collections kept in various museums etc.

Adam Cheeseman
Ecologist

bedfontbirder said:

Generally speaking, scientific collecting is quite often essential for the overall conservation and understanding of a species. How much less would we know now about all wildlife if it weren't for the all the collections kept in various museums etc.

Adam Cheeseman
Ecologist

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Difficult to comment without knowing the circumstances of why this individual was collected, but I'd have thought that Southern Migrant Hawker will have been quite well studied within its usual range. I can't really imagine that the collection of one individual vagrant will further our knowledge, although you could say it would be of 'interest' on display in a museum.
I wouldn't be too happy if a Camberwell Beauty turned up local to me, only to be then pinned and displayed in a museum. Yes, of local interest, but there would be no need to kill it in the name of 'science'.

With the way our fauna is responding to climate change and species are trying to colonise new areas, how many more 'new' species need to be collected? Will the first Southern Migrant Hawker for Suffolk be collected for the county museum, then the first for Norfolk, and the first for Kent? I personally do not think we should be influencing potential colonisation of such species unnecessarily.

Mark

bedfontbirder said:

Generally speaking, scientific collecting is quite often essential for the overall conservation and understanding of a species. How much less would we know now about all wildlife if it weren't for the all the collections kept in various museums etc.

Adam Cheeseman
Ecologist

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Absoloutely Adam. And presumably you yourself wouldn't mind if an equivalently sized pin, eg a marquee peg, was thrust through your thorax, providing of course it was decided by someone that some important scientific information for the greater good could be derived from obtaining you as a specimen.

just another way of looking at it.

This issue irks me...[and i have heard that the British Museum had nothing to do with the collecting of these hawkers]...

This is a stunning looking species that i have not yet had the privilege to see as yet....[and perhaps this is not likely with these all these f------ collectors about]....'scientific purposes' my a---....sounds like a japanese whaling excuse....amongst other so called 'research'...[not directly comparable i know...but you get me drift...i hope]...!

ps....i do however appreciate 'proper' controlled scientific studies where species may need to be collected however....etc...

Seems unlikely that this was the case here...

bedfontbirder said:

Generally speaking, scientific collecting is quite often essential for the overall conservation and understanding of a species. How much less would we know now about all wildlife if it weren't for the all the collections kept in various museums etc.

Adam Cheeseman
Ecologist

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I must admit I do struggle with this (especially in this day and age). I do question how conservation of a species can really benefit from what can be learnt from taking a voucher specimen. I agree that we have probably learnt a lot from the collections in museums; however how much more can we (or do we need to) learn from taking specimens?

I am getting a bit fed up with individuals claiming that is is OK to take a specimen for 'scientific purposes' - what exactly does this term mean. It seems it is one of those vague terms that is used as a blanket excuse for continuing this victorian practice.

Is it not about time that 'collecting' was only permited under licence? At least a thorough explanation of what the scientific reasons for collection would be realised.

Of course in the circumstances relating to the Southern Migrant Hawker that was taken in Essex, this was nothing more than a selfish act!

Regards
Tristan

Binocularface said:

I must admit I do struggle with this (especially in this day and age). I do question how conservation of a species can really benefit from what can be learnt from taking a voucher specimen. I agree that we have probably learnt a lot from the collections in museums; however how much more can we (or do we need to) learn from taking specimens?

I am getting a bit fed up with individuals claiming that is is OK to take a specimen for 'scientific purposes' - what exactly does this term mean. It seems it is one of those vague terms that is used as a blanket excuse for continuing this victorian practice.

Is it not about time that 'collecting' was only permited under licence? At least a thorough explanation of what the scientific reasons for collection would be realised.

Of course in the circumstances relating to the Southern Migrant Hawker that was taken in Essex, this was nothing more than a selfish act!

Regards
Tristan

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The vagueness of "scientific reasons" as it is being used here is a problem I agree.... but I don't see it as a blanket excuse though, if taking for "scientific reasons" reason there should be a set out and reasoned explanation as to why this needs to be done, set aims and objectives and explanation as to how the collecting of species will further knowledge etc. Some species are sadly only identifiable by dissection/very close examination.... if survey work on a site is to be comprehensive for example it may be necessary to "take" difficult species or use pitfall traps etc. You cannot survey insects in the same way as say birds... they are often very small and cannot be seen etc unlike easy species like birds! Insects are a key species in survey work as they are a key indicator to habit etc. If the people I know who do this kind of work are anything to go by they think hard and long before resorting to killing anything.

Reference collections in Museums are invaluable as research tools (how many articles do you see in the birding press referring to skin studies at Tring for example?). However just taking single "locale voucher specimens" for local museums of firsts etc of easy insects such as the SMH etc seems very pointless!

Now the use of "scientific reasons" to take, say this SMH is wrong IMO its not going to further anything is it? This was most probably taken for the selfish reason of sticking a pin in it and having a "British caught SMH in my collection" attitude (we don't know that for sure of course... the specimen could end up in a museum, but still not to me a valid scientific reason).... its not that much different to egg collecting is it.... in a similar way collecting and killing anything for say personal pleasure is way off the mark to me! That's the practice that needs to end IMO.
Collecting for collectings sake is not a good aim or objective neither is for monetary gain (I hear on the other thread there is quite a trade in collected wild caught UK butterflies for example!).

The use of the name of the British Museum here also pains me as it could tarnish the reputation of this institution unnecessarily now we have been told that they knew nothing of the capture and it was not done on their behalf.

Of course on the other hand you could look at it from Larry's valid point of view.... I know I wouldn't be happy if someone stuck a marquee peg through me and stuck me on a board for "science".... there are always two sides to every argument as he says!!

ATB

Steph'

bedfontbirder said:

Generally speaking, scientific collecting is quite often essential for the overall conservation and understanding of a species. How much less would we know now about all wildlife if it weren't for the all the collections kept in various museums etc.

Adam Cheeseman
Ecologist

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Yes but that was then....it's now 2010
James

James Lidster said:

Yes but that was then....it's now 2010
James

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Yes but its not like all species were discovered years and years ago and we know everything there is to know,new species are being found all the time so the same still applies this is a constantly ongoing process so if you think it was okay then,then it still is now if its species that are new to science and not known about.
That doesnt apply to this particular case but the general principle still applies,its not a case of it was okay years ago but out dated now as a lot of people seem to think.