charlierocky
Well-known member
Well one thing that is becoming clear during this debate is that things are not always what they appear to be and unless reported in there entirety are often misconstrued.?
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Mis-handling of raptors by ringers/banders? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter FalconBirder
- Start date
Isurus
Well-known member
Not a ringer but I think this might be one of the examples you mean.
http://10000birds.com/pierfrancesco-micheloni-and-ebbaken-boje.htm
deborah4
Well-known member
Thanks for that Isurus - a fascinating story full of tensions between human and avian needs. Although you posted originally to show the value of ringing, to read what it led to and how the issues were/are being dealt with provides an excellent case study of eco-tourism. Probably going off thread a bit, but got carried away by reading this, my thinking was what about the other wildlife in that region - that surely would help motivate birding visitors/eco tourists who might be tempted to visit? I tried the link in the article to 'the other 142 species' that he mentions recorded in the area but it didn't work for some reason. I didn't get the feeling other species had been ringed in the area during the project but possibly something for the future.
All the worst possible impacts ringing techniques could even theoretically have is nothing compared to seeing those images of birds being stuck to glue sticks - it really puts it into perspective (I hope at least more humane hunting techniques could be introduced!)
All the worst possible impacts ringing techniques could even theoretically have is nothing compared to seeing those images of birds being stuck to glue sticks - it really puts it into perspective (I hope at least more humane hunting techniques could be introduced!)
John Morgan
Well-known member
Well, you'll be pleased to hear that there is a credible conservation reason - actually many. So may we now assume we have your full support to continue ringing?
rozinante
Anarchism is order
Would that be with disregard to the problems of aledged mishandling as illustrated in this thread?
KnockerNorton
Well-known member
note that word 'alleged'. Nobody has provided any evidence that any picture on here shows 'mishandling' in that it has been proven to result in (or be likely to, based on evidence) damage.
rozinante
Anarchism is order
John Cantelo
Well-known member
KnockerNorton
Well-known member
Thanks.
I do note my words.
Even if I can't spell them.
Well, I wasn't going to mention that!
vermivoracelata
Master Bander
I for one am still waiting hear from FalconBirder on the alternate methods of handling raptors.
rozinante
Anarchism is order
Are you suggesting that you are not aware of any alternative methods?
bitterntwisted
Graham Howard Shortt
vermivoracelata
Master Bander
I am, of course, aware of alternative methods. I'm just curious to see whether FalconBirder can suggest any of these him/herself, and justify that they are less 'risky' to the bird.
John Morgan
Well-known member
Perhaps you might consider your query in the following light:
Should medical practice be discontinued because Harold Shipton murdered patients.
Should birders stop using electricity because power cables sometimes kill birds.
Etc.,etc.
I hope you see the point, and can then accept that my answer to your question is - Yes.
The alleged mis-handling is being talked over by ringers - that should produce a just result one way or the other, at least in the UK.
JedHarrison
Member
i guess that falconbirder has given up trying to have a decent debate on this thread. It does not seem to be forthcoming. I have been doing a bit of research and nowhere can i find reference to this type of handling being recommended. It is always recommended to hold the bird wing by the bony parts, not by the primaries (one or more being held). There is no reference to holding small birds, which will not cause claw damage, by the one handed technique depicted. I could not find reference to holding raptors in this way either. my references are not exhaustative and so i woul be interested in see if anyone else has seen these techniques recommended for use.
Poecile asked where is the evidence of mishandling. I posted a link to a picture that showed fairly good proof of a bird being damaged by this type of handling. There was a nighjar with feathers torn out- this obviously happened during the depicted handling with one hand only around the tail, legs and wings (as otherwise the feathers would not be positioned in this way).- the very handling technique that caused this question to be raised in the first place. This handling technique has damaged that bird- i am not making any assumptions about whether this would significantly impact on the bird welfare at all. This is merely evidence that this technique is not perfect in at least some hands.
I have seen primaries of passerines and raptors damaged by holding the wings out in the manner depicted by Falconbirder (bent feathers, abraded feathers and strained)- i have also seen this technique used with no damage whatsoever, each time i have tried to or stopped the person and explained how to hold the birds wing properly. i have never seen a birds wing damaged by holding the wing firmly by the humerus, radius/ulna and the joint inbetween.
There are plenty of other techniques that you can use to get the same information, or the same photgraphs of a birds wing with little or no liklihood of damage.
i would have thought that trying to encourage everyone here that these techniques may not be as safe as others in most/a few circumstances would be a good idea. Collectively we must meet a good deal of banders and we can spread the word...if that is needed
a simple search of the internt reveals that there are several methods around, some may seem bad from the photo and some seem good. This is not a case of bringing ringing/banding into disrepute, simply analysing the methods and improving technique. This thread could become a good place for those starting to ring raptors to come for useful advice..
what do people think of these images?
Poecile asked where is the evidence of mishandling. I posted a link to a picture that showed fairly good proof of a bird being damaged by this type of handling. There was a nighjar with feathers torn out- this obviously happened during the depicted handling with one hand only around the tail, legs and wings (as otherwise the feathers would not be positioned in this way).- the very handling technique that caused this question to be raised in the first place. This handling technique has damaged that bird- i am not making any assumptions about whether this would significantly impact on the bird welfare at all. This is merely evidence that this technique is not perfect in at least some hands.
I have seen primaries of passerines and raptors damaged by holding the wings out in the manner depicted by Falconbirder (bent feathers, abraded feathers and strained)- i have also seen this technique used with no damage whatsoever, each time i have tried to or stopped the person and explained how to hold the birds wing properly. i have never seen a birds wing damaged by holding the wing firmly by the humerus, radius/ulna and the joint inbetween.
There are plenty of other techniques that you can use to get the same information, or the same photgraphs of a birds wing with little or no liklihood of damage.
i would have thought that trying to encourage everyone here that these techniques may not be as safe as others in most/a few circumstances would be a good idea. Collectively we must meet a good deal of banders and we can spread the word...if that is needed
a simple search of the internt reveals that there are several methods around, some may seem bad from the photo and some seem good. This is not a case of bringing ringing/banding into disrepute, simply analysing the methods and improving technique. This thread could become a good place for those starting to ring raptors to come for useful advice..
what do people think of these images?
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John Cantelo
Well-known member
Two points:-
1 - I've no doubt that the first two examples highlighted in Jed's post look very bad - I simply don't have the knowledge to say whether this is actually the case or just prejudice on my part. The point I tried to make earlier (but hasn't been taken up) is that, whatever the pros and cons, ringing is too important to risk the sort of bad PR that these photos generate. As this thread has already demonstrated there are already plenty of ignorant folks out there waiting to 'have a go' at rining & ringers.
2 - Whatever the pros & cons, I would have thought it a sine qua non of ringing that birds should be handled as little as possible and released as quickly as possible. There is an element of risk whenever a bird is handled and extending this period unnecessarily increases that risk. In these pictures it looks to me that this golden rule may have been ignored or bent,
John
1 - I've no doubt that the first two examples highlighted in Jed's post look very bad - I simply don't have the knowledge to say whether this is actually the case or just prejudice on my part. The point I tried to make earlier (but hasn't been taken up) is that, whatever the pros and cons, ringing is too important to risk the sort of bad PR that these photos generate. As this thread has already demonstrated there are already plenty of ignorant folks out there waiting to 'have a go' at rining & ringers.
2 - Whatever the pros & cons, I would have thought it a sine qua non of ringing that birds should be handled as little as possible and released as quickly as possible. There is an element of risk whenever a bird is handled and extending this period unnecessarily increases that risk. In these pictures it looks to me that this golden rule may have been ignored or bent,
John
JedHarrison
Member
John
I take your point
I have removed the links.
my intention was merely to try to get the discussion going again, not to bring anything about ringing into a bad light. With everything that scientists do there are good ways and bad ways. if we could highlight these ways then people can learn how to do things properly. It was supposed to have a positive angle, showing how to do things better.
What ways have you seen to present raptors for a photo, and what do you think is the best method?
It seems to me that being as fast as possible and holding the bird in the standard leg grip whilst restraining the wings is the best for a head and body shot. For the wings i have seen many great photos on the internet which show two people holding the bird. One is holding the standard leg grip and the other holds out the wing gently at the correct joint. To me this seems to be the best.
I take your point
I have removed the links.
my intention was merely to try to get the discussion going again, not to bring anything about ringing into a bad light. With everything that scientists do there are good ways and bad ways. if we could highlight these ways then people can learn how to do things properly. It was supposed to have a positive angle, showing how to do things better.
What ways have you seen to present raptors for a photo, and what do you think is the best method?
It seems to me that being as fast as possible and holding the bird in the standard leg grip whilst restraining the wings is the best for a head and body shot. For the wings i have seen many great photos on the internet which show two people holding the bird. One is holding the standard leg grip and the other holds out the wing gently at the correct joint. To me this seems to be the best.
rozinante
Anarchism is order
On your first point John... I agree that the photos are bad PR for ringing as it also appears do the majority of readers. However I think there is a clear distinction to be made between expressing concern and "waiting to 'have a go' at ringing & ringers". There also appear to be "ignorant folks out there" waiting to justify ringing at any cost.
On your second point... I totally agree.
John Cantelo
Well-known member
Jed, I didn't mean to suggest that, within this limited forum, your posting of the photos was a problem - my point was a general one. Apologies if I didn't make this clear.
Rozinante - I absolutely agree that the distinction between reasonable concern and 'having a go' is an important one. No group should be beyond criticism and I very much doubt any decent ringers would want to be. However, I do think we should all be aware of that some people (not necessariuly those posting here) have a blind "animal rights attitude" that can be damaging,
John
Rozinante - I absolutely agree that the distinction between reasonable concern and 'having a go' is an important one. No group should be beyond criticism and I very much doubt any decent ringers would want to be. However, I do think we should all be aware of that some people (not necessariuly those posting here) have a blind "animal rights attitude" that can be damaging,
John
KnockerNorton
Well-known member
And the BTO - read the Ringer's Manual.
Photos are usually quite unecessary, and such things as 'record shots' etc are needless personal mementos. Unless the photos are for a specific purpose, such as training (close-ups of feather tracts etc, not a pretty pic of a raptor from 2 metres away) or publicity (which is really the BTOs remit, not individual ringers), then all they do is prolong handling and increase stress and the potential for harm to come to the bird (eg when changing grips etc when trying to present the best view).
The welfare of the bird ALWAYS comes first. That is the golden rule. But, imho, too many forget that in the quest for trophy shots. They're not needed, the manual says they should be avoided, and it makes some of the public question the reason why ringers do what they do. Which makes it bad PR.
