Is ringing ethical? (1 Viewer)

Cudyll Bach said:

Thank you for clarifying that point. I now see where you are coming from and I find myself having to agree with you. I can also see Peociles' point of view, I was at Portland on the 14th of October and a Little Bunting was trapped and within minutes it appeared on the RBA Alert.

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Ringing has not certainly to do with twitching, but unfortunately twitching causes pressure to inform rare birds to the twitcher's association. Accusation of hide birds does not sound so pleasant to anybody's ears.

If we don't utilize all getting knowledge today, we do neither know what the situation is in future. It's better to study species when the population is big, because it will be more difficult to study then, if the population collapse.

If it wasn't for the fact that darvic rings were placed on the Honeys we ring then i wouldnt have had the pleasure of proving for the first time that young Honeys , rung in Wales have returned to breed. As we are familiar with the female we now have the age she first bred,(always interesting) the fact that the male was also rung in Wales and returned to the area to breed will have some impact on preventing developments( windfarms ) in areas ajoining the study area. As it is obvious that these areas in years to come will be looked at as potential breeding sites by returning young birds . One aspect of ringing that does bother me is the fact that some people set up nets in their gardens and ring anything from jackdaws to house sparrows, whats the point in that

Everyone knows that Californian Condors are good example of birds, which researchers follow the development of population with the help of ringing.

valley boy said:

If it wasn't for the fact that darvic rings were placed on the Honeys we ring then i wouldnt have had the pleasure of proving for the first time that young Honeys , rung in Wales have returned to breed. As we are familiar with the female we now have the age she first bred,(always interesting) the fact that the male was also rung in Wales and returned to the area to breed will have some impact on preventing developments( windfarms ) in areas ajoining the study area. As it is obvious that these areas in years to come will be looked at as potential breeding sites by returning young birds . One aspect of ringing that does bother me is the fact that some people set up nets in their gardens and ring anything from jackdaws to house sparrows, whats the point in that

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In my mind, it does not matter, does some bird species wintering area be in Africa or Europe! e.g.
We can estimate the size of wintering population and how much of the catched birds survive over the winter. Also we can get data from their fat score, which indicates how muct they get food to eat (condition of bird), which influence to their breeding successful.

posted in error

hannu said:

Main part of our bird knowledge has got with the help of ringing or on that being connected study (measurements, id points, breeding behaviour, migration, etc). I think that in this fact we can agree ? So if someone claim that the ringing is totally unethical (I have heard such claims sometimes), then the fellow, which say so, using this unethical data by owning these books and thus supporting this unethical work.

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A few points though:

1, Clearly ringing has contributed to our bird knowledge, though personally I'm not convinced that this is to the extent that we wouldn't still have excellent field guides without ringing. I could be wrong, though without any evidence upon which to base such a view I'm not convinced.
2, Even if it were the case that field guides were based on information and data obtained from ringing, owning such books does not directly support the practice of ringing, and certainly not in any financial way (not that I'm aware of anyway, though again, I could be completely wrong about this).
3. I use field guides and am against ringing that does not have a direct link with species protection and conservation. I do not see a problem with this, as I also use prescribed medication but am opposed to research on animals for the development and tersting of such medications. I agree that it's an admirable thing to live by one's principles, though in the society in which we live this is not always possible. I can't purchase asthma medication that I'm sure hasn't at some point been tested on animals any more than I can buy field guides that I'm certain are not based upon information obtained from ringing. I could of course give up birding altogether, though surely this would be a bit silly, as one has to draw the line somewhere. If I lived fully by all of my principles I'd wear a robe and sandals, live in a cave, eat only fruit and not use any products or services that had harmed animals, if I hadn't already died of an asthma attack.

I'd also like to make the point that there appears to be widespread acceptance of ringing because generally there is no physical harm done to the birds (though are we sure about this given how small and delicate some of them are??). What about the total heart pounding terror that they experience upon capture, & upon being trussed up in a bag, then being man-handled and shoved in a plastic bag to be weighed? I'd be interested to know whether any birds (particularly small passerines) drop down dead as a result of the trauma of the whole thing!

Sue Wright said:

I have to agree with Ocelot and Poecile and have recently given my thoughts about it all on the ex beebers forum.

I can't see the necessity in going on and on ringing Birds that get stressed enough as it is in their everyday lives. They come to our shores exhausted and are immediately put under great stress straight away....is that honestly the right thing to do....I'm afraid I really don't think so. One Melodious Warbler was recently caught no less than 3 times at Portland, why? They then wondered why it was staying around the quarry there....too stressed to begin it's flight onward no doubt.

All migrating Birds have enough to do in facing the arduous distances involved as it is, but to be stressed out and possibly injured before they even begin their epic journies is surely often so unnecessary, especially when it's so repetitive. I also agree that a lot of it is for the sheer pleasure of ticking, especially the more rarer species. I know it's said that it's all in the name of conservation, but is it really the case that, after all the information is discovered something can definately be done to help the Birds no matter which countries they go to?

What about the weight of the rings they have to wear, like it or not, do they really not hinder their flight....or their chances of fleeing from danger, especially if they get mud, vegetation etc dried onto the rings as well as their legs? What of the risk of Birds rings getting caught up in scrubland...all things to be seriously considered more surely - and who can tell us just how many are never seen again as a result of the rings which are said to help in their conservation?!

Sue

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Sorry for question, but how you took the picture from so close distance without the stressing bird ? Moreover, yours bird is not as human related as mine ? Or is OK to disterb birds by hours creaping around, but not banding? Why so?
Sincerely,
das.

ocelot said:

A few points though:
1, Clearly ringing has contributed to our bird knowledge, though personally I'm not convinced that this is to the extent that we wouldn't still have excellent field guides without ringing. I could be wrong, though without any evidence upon which to base such a view I'm not convinced.

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It will be difficult to segregate all details which based on ringing work and other studies. Then we have to do so species by species. I'm very convinced that many studies and our general knowledge based on ringers first observation. e.g. moulting strategies, id of sexes and ages of the bird, and so on.

ocelot said:

2, Even if it were the case that field guides were based on information and data obtained from ringing, owning such books does not directly support the act of ringing, and certainly not in any financial way (not that I'm aware of anyway).

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But you utilize and use the knowledge, which came from ringing work. So in that way you admit that the knowledge given by ringing has also some benefits to your hobby. We can be against nuclear power, but in same time we can buy electricity from nuclear power station. Or we can demand to protect nature, but also we participate to destroy nature unnoticed through the our own life style.

ocelot said:

3. I use field guides and am against ringing that does not have a direct link with species protection and conservation. I do not see a problem with this, as I also use prescribed medication but am opposed to the research on animals for such purposes. I agree that it's an admirable thing to live by one's principles, though in the society in which we live this is not always possible. I can't purchase asthma medication that I'm sure hasn't at some point been tested on animals any more that I can buy field guides that I'm certain are not based upon information obtained from ringing. I could of course give up birding altogether, though surely this would be a bit silly, as one has to draw the line somewhere. If I lived fully by all of my principles I'd wear robes and sandals, live in a cave and only eat fruit, if I hadn't already died of an asthma attack.

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So how you protect birds if you don't know their life cycle or any other data, which ringing has given to us ?

ocelot said:

I'd also like to stress that some posts on this thread appear to be justifying ringing because generally there is no physical harm done to the birds. What about the total heart pounding terror that they experience upon capture, & upon trussed up in a bird, then handled and being shoved in a plastic bag to be weighed. I'd be interested to know how many birds (particularly small passerines) drop down dead as a result of the trauma of the whole thing.

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There is not any evidence that birds drop down dead as a result of the trauma, but we have evidence that driving a car or windows in the house or power lines or wind farms or fishing by net kills tens of thousands birds. So I think that scale in this discussion is clearly different than in cases mentioned above.

hannu said:

Main part of our bird knowledge has got with the help of ringing or on that being connected study (measurements, id points, breeding behaviour, migration, etc). I think that in this fact we can agree ? .

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You're actually quite wrong there. The main part of our knowledge regarding biometrics, identification, breeding condition have not been through ringing, but were done before that using killed birds. Go and look in any museum and see the tray upon tray of study skins. Much of the biometric data in BWP is from study skins, not ringed birds.

ocelot said:

I'd also like to make the point that there appears to be widespread acceptance of ringing because generally there is no physical harm done to the birds (though are we sure about this given how small and delicate some of them are??). What about the total heart pounding terror that they experience upon capture, & upon being trussed up in a bag, then being man-handled and shoved in a plastic bag to be weighed? I'd be interested to know whether any birds (particularly small passerines) drop down dead as a result of the trauma of the whole thing!

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It is important that one does not impose human characteristics upon birds. Birds do not experience 'total heart pounding terror'. Fear is an emotion and requires a level of self-conscious awareness, neither of which are experienced by birds. But birds do experience 'stress', an increase in particular hormone levels as a result of environmental factors. Yes, ringing causes stress. It is unavoidable. But the reason for the lengthy training is so that ringers are experienced enough to keep stress to an absolute minimum. And ringers are following a code of ethics as well, which puts the welfare of the bird as paramount. But birds also experience stress on a daily basis, some of which is of a far greater level than that induced by the ringing process. Habitat changes, nutritional changes, abnormal weather, human and other disturbance, predator attacks, male rivalry, mating, etc. are all factors which induce stress in birds.

ocelot said:

A few points though:

I'd also like to make the point that there appears to be widespread acceptance of ringing because generally there is no physical harm done to the birds (though are we sure about this given how small and delicate some of them are??). What about the total heart pounding terror that they experience upon capture, & upon being trussed up in a bag, then being man-handled and shoved in a plastic bag to be weighed? I'd be interested to know whether any birds (particularly small passerines) drop down dead as a result of the trauma of the whole thing!

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Of couse birds are stressed with ringing, however similar stres in bird life is a daylly case: escaping of preditors (including largelly accepted cats :storm: ), cars, windows etc. Also they experiance happyanding - escaping from ringers. Moreower, large number of newlly ringed birds at the same feeder (is a great density of feeders in my living area, north of Sweden) is the indication, that the ringing stress is quite minimal. In addition Steppe Eagle catched in the raptor trap at the Ottenby one day, was found in the same trap next day with stomach full of meat served in the trap.

Jane Turner said:

Ringing picks up changes in population a great deal quicker and way more accurately ly than any other method. eg. by comparison of the catches of 1st year to adult birds, or the results from contant effort sites. Indeed one of the reasons that the decline in the House Sparrow took so long to detect is because the species was species was not ringed in the UK since it was believed that there was no value in ringing them..

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No, it doesn't. Ringers are thinly spread, and the recoveries are only 1%. BBS picks up population trends better than CES - just look at the BTO's own 'breeding birds of the wider countryside' indices - they use CBC and BBS. Not CES or any other ringing data.

The decline of house sparrows did not evade detection, it's just that nobody cared much til they'd gone right down. CBC, BBS and even garden bird surveys picked it up well before any ringing data could have done. But targetting sparrow populations using ringing will shed light on the decline. General ad-hoc ringing of sparrows will tell you nothing much, either now or then.

Poecile said:

You're actually quite wrong there. The main part of our knowledge regarding biometrics, identification, breeding condition have not been through ringing, but were done before that using killed birds. Go and look in any museum and see the tray upon tray of study skins. Much of the biometric data in BWP is from study skins, not ringed birds.

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You are right, but only in partly. I don't think so that main part of museum's samples has killed in all countries. Rather difficult to say.
I suppose that the main part of today's measurements based on lived birds.
Of course researches uses skins also in the research, but it does not compensate totally data from living birds.
So do you suggest that the killing birds is better method?
Maybe so in Russia!

Here’s my tuppence worth…….(which I’ve written before in this forum). I’m against this constant ringing that achieves little new. A lot of bird marking/ringing is not scientifically valid and at times, there is no doubt, is carried out solely for self- gratification. I’m not convinced either that the birds welfare comes first with some ringers.

Don’t forget that ‘marking’ birds at observatories/nature reserves etc includes dyeing, wing-tags, nasal saddles, attaching/taping transmitters, using canon netting – these, and more, all under that catch-all phrase of scientific study.

I've witnessed a tired vagrant (Bonelli's Warbler) in the hand lose all its tail feathers - what hope for that one's onward migration? And seen a White's Thrush hit the net and feathers just came out everywhere. Another, what point in ringing the vagrant Sora last year at Gibraltar Point when we know the outcome of the bird is to die, reorientate, head south, get killed by a cat etc…..what scientific value here?

Where it can be proven that we learn from ringing then fine, but are we to learn anymore from, say, Reed Warblers - the measurements/weights/migration routes are so well documented....what else to learn from any individual bird now? That's my point.....why do this at all if it serves no useful purpose (cf. Sora)....and which indeed must stress or harm individual birds. (I can provide studies on stress and heart rhythms when birds are simply being approached - for example, one study with White Terns whose heart rates soared, so they must suffer in the hand)

Here’s the pics that were used before. Can this Semi-p not be affected by the amount of rings here? And what about these awful nasal saddles used when rings cannot be seen? (Only trouble is that these birds get caught in vegetation, saddle gets iced over, damage to nares etc) Before you ask they are legal throughout the EU – I have seen a Teal with a saddle in the UK, which apparently was traced to the Camargue, France.

Mike Johnston said:

It is important that one does not impose human characteristics upon birds. Birds do not experience 'total heart pounding terror'. Fear is an emotion and requires a level of self-conscious awareness, neither of which are experienced by birds. But birds do experience 'stress', an increase in particular hormone levels as a result of environmental factors. Yes, ringing causes stress. It is unavoidable. But the reason for the lengthy training is so that ringers are experienced enough to keep stress to an absolute minimum. And ringers are following a code of ethics as well, which puts the welfare of the bird as paramount. But birds also experience stress on a daily basis, some of which is of a far greater level than that induced by the ringing process. Habitat changes, nutritional changes, abnormal weather, human and other disturbance, predator attacks, male rivalry, mating, etc. are all factors which induce stress in birds.

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You were quicker :clap:

kuksa said:

Of couse birds are stressed with ringing, however similar stres in bird life is a daylly case: escaping of preditors (including largelly accepted cats :storm: ), cars, windows etc. Also they experiance happyanding - escaping from ringers. Moreower, large number of newlly ringed birds at the same feeder (is a great density of feeders in my living area, north of Sweden) is the indication, that the ringing stress is quite minimal. In addition Steppe Eagle catched in the raptor trap at the Ottenby one day, was found in the same trap next day with stomach full of meat served in the trap.

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The stress does appear to be quite minimal, as the birds act perfetcly normally a few minutes after release. But there is a mortality rate, through injuries during extraction or chilling while in the net, weakened (eg migrant) birds dying through not being able to feed up while waiting to be processed (which can take 40 mins or more) or by the rings catching on things and trapping the bird (this is fairly rare but it does happen). The direct mortality rate is estimated at <1%. Most of this is probably due to the general use of mist nets, rather than the targetted specific use of mist nets.

hannu said:

So do you suggest that the killing birds is better method?
Maybe so in Russia!

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I never said that, but it's wrong for you to suggest that we would not have all of the data we have without ringing.

Pity that you did not take my advice, because you might not ask:

ocelot said:

What about the total heart pounding terror that they experience upon capture, & upon being trussed up in a bag, then being man-handled and shoved in a plastic bag to be weighed? I'd be interested to know whether any birds (particularly small passerines) drop down dead as a result of the trauma of the whole thing!

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...because birds usually resume normal activity, feeding etc. within minutes after release.

It was said in previous thread, and is known to anybody who ringed birds and had a chance to see what they do afterwards.
:t:

Pterodroma said:

Here’s my tuppence worth…….(which I’ve written before in this forum). I’m against this constant ringing that achieves little new. A lot of bird marking/ringing is not scientifically valid and at times, there is no doubt, is carried out solely for self- gratification. I’m not convinced either that the birds welfare comes first with some ringers.

Don’t forget that ‘marking’ birds at observatories/nature reserves etc includes dyeing, wing-tags, nasal saddles, attaching/taping transmitters, using canon netting – these, and more, all under that catch-all phrase of scientific study.

I've witnessed a tired vagrant (Bonelli's Warbler) in the hand lose all its tail feathers - what hope for that one's onward migration? And seen a White's Thrush hit the net and feathers just came out everywhere. Another, what point in ringing the vagrant Sora last year at Gibraltar Point when we know the outcome of the bird is to die, reorientate, head south, get killed by a cat etc…..what scientific value here?

Where it can be proven that we learn from ringing then fine, but are we to learn anymore from, say, Reed Warblers - the measurements/weights/migration routes are so well documented....what else to learn from any individual bird now? That's my point.....why do this at all if it serves no useful purpose (cf. Sora)....and which indeed must stress or harm individual birds. (I can provide studies on stress and heart rhythms when birds are simply being approached - for example, one study with White Terns whose heart rates soared, so they must suffer in the hand)

Here’s the pics that were used before. Can this Semi-p not be affected by the amount of rings here? And what about these awful nasal saddles used when rings cannot be seen? (Only trouble is that these birds get caught in vegetation, saddle gets iced over, damage to nares etc) Before you ask they are legal throughout the EU – I have seen a Teal with a saddle in the UK, which apparently was traced to the Camargue, France.

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All these kind of complaints, (which mostly are justifiable) should direct to the national Ringing Centre, which give licence to the ringers. I can not give answers to any questions, where the decission to use those nasal saddles based. Also we have been such conversation on these in our national forum.
Also Ringing Centre can 'adjust / regulate' the list of ringing species, if they want.