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Canon 7D MkIII ....

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Old Thursday 22nd August 2019, 09:58   #101
temmie
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Hi Neil,

it's been 3 months since my post. Since then, I feel I could upgrade from my 7DII + 300 F4 package in a way, but it seems Canon doesn't want to make my upgrade, and I am still hesitant making the leap to another manufacturer as this will be a big investment for a small increase in quality.

My three biggest gripes with my combo are the lens weight, sensor quality and image stabilisation stops.

Lens weight and image stabilizer: since holding the Nikon 300F4 PF (755 grams), I just know that a much lighter lens with the same image quality can be had than my 300mm F4 weighting double. Ofcourse, it is a bit more expensive than a classic lens, but both Canon (with DO) and Nikon (with PF) have proven that IQ doesn't need to suffer. The question is: when will Canon finally make a 300F4, 500F4 (or 5.6) or 600 F4 DO? This would be a massive upgrade, if combined with the current 4-5 stops image stabilizer (my lens has like 2-3 stops stabilizer).

Sensor quality: the 7DII is, for me, a very significant step compared to the 7D in terms of sensor quality. However, when looking at the competition, the dynamic range can still be improved, a lot. I fear Canon will lag behind because they don't have access to the very best in the sensor market (ruled by the bigger players such as Sony). Camera like the Olympus OMD have excellent image quality because of great sensors (even in 4/3).

So in the end, I know that Canon has everything in-house to produce a much lighter lens or a better camera body, but without anything on the horizion, I am looking at a Nikon lens and an Olympus body, but I cannot get used to the ergonomics of Nikon (I can do all I need to do with a Canon looking through the viewfinder, with Nikon I have to look at the camera body time and time again to adjust settings), and I feel reluctant to spend close to 4000 euros for the Olympus combo of the OMD with a 300F4 lens.
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Old Thursday 22nd August 2019, 11:11   #102
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I have joined this discussion quite late but assume you publish your pictures Temmie? I have a Canon 7DII and use it primarily for bird and aviation photography for personal use. The quality is superb, I have no issues with weight - I generally use a Canon 75-300mm lens - and I'm not sure what increase I would want, other than try to satisfy a certain amount of 'equipment envy' when I see some amazing professional shots. I am sure I will never get my pictures published in National Geographic but I have no wish to and I think photographers will always hanker after something better no matter what we have. It seems to me that we never really enjoy what we have because there is always some technical journal or someone using different equipment telling us about the promised land we can go out and buy. I think you have neatly summarised the situation yourself: you cannot get used to the ergonomics of Nikon and are reluctant to spend $,000 Euros for the Olympus combo, and will it really make a difference anyway?
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Old Thursday 22nd August 2019, 12:38   #103
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I have joined this discussion quite late but assume you publish your pictures Temmie? I have a Canon 7DII and use it primarily for bird and aviation photography for personal use. The quality is superb, I have no issues with weight - I generally use a Canon 75-300mm lens - and I'm not sure what increase I would want, other than try to satisfy a certain amount of 'equipment envy' when I see some amazing professional shots. I am sure I will never get my pictures published in National Geographic but I have no wish to and I think photographers will always hanker after something better no matter what we have. It seems to me that we never really enjoy what we have because there is always some technical journal or someone using different equipment telling us about the promised land we can go out and buy. I think you have neatly summarised the situation yourself: you cannot get used to the ergonomics of Nikon and are reluctant to spend $,000 Euros for the Olympus combo, and will it really make a difference anyway?
My (growing) urge to change is a broken collarbone some weeks ago; all weight on that (right) shoulder is hurting. So less weight is less hurting...
If I would start again, I would buy either the Nikon or Olympus just for the weight.

For the image quality, you are right that the increase would be small compared to my current setup, but I could get more 'keepers' as well. I just take pictures for my own satisfaction, for ID purposes and occasionally, I send in a picture for a book (or better: I get asked by a publisher if I have a certain picture or someone sees a picture of mine and asks if they can publish it).

In this way, I have a picture in the HBW series (I got one book for that), and I got a good reduction for one picture in the birds of the Western Palearctic. So my grand total is something like 2-300 euro worth of books (or money if I would have chosen that, but obviously I didn't). Would I publish more with better equipment? I guess so, but that equipment would cost double or triple.

So the few published pictures and money I am getting doesn't justify the price of my equipment, but looking back at pictures of past travels is "a joy forever".

ps: besides birds, I am trying to give sports photography a go. I reckon I will earn as much (= little to none) from those pictures, but the gratification of people I take pictures of is worth it. For sports photography, the image buffer is my main restriction. I take pictures of cyclists in competition, and when a peloton rushes past, it's hard to get enough pictures of everybody, as 10 fps for some seconds fills the memory buffer quickly, even in jpeg.
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Old Thursday 22nd August 2019, 13:44   #104
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.... The question is: when will Canon finally make a 300F4, 500F4 (or 5.6) or 600 F4 DO? This would be a massive upgrade, if combined with the current 4-5 stops image stabilizer (my lens has like 2-3 stops stabilizer).
This was the question on my mind when I started these two threads years ago now .....

My dream combo was to be the 7D III with DO 600 f4.

That would be well worth the expense, likewise as injuries make carrying more than ~2.5kg of lens unenjoyable. Also that rig would do for the best part of a decade before being surpassed in any practical way and perhaps an adapted future uber mirrorless body would see it through the best part of another decade .....

In common with Canon users, that is because I had given up on Nikon ever producing any fast diffractive optics supertelephotos. Ironically Nikon has had the APSC DSLR market to itself for years now, firstly with the D7200 and now the D500, and has actually come out with medium fast (f5.6) medium long supertelephoto(s) , though actually getting one is like finding rocking horse p**p, and the mythical 600mm version should arrive just after the golden fleece is found.

Similar to you I'm looking to upgrade from the D7200 (needs more fps but the sensor rocks! Also if I'm spending that money I at least want 4K60p to avoid FOMO :) and Tammy G2 150-600 (for that last bit of extra sharpness and AF speed at a weight equal to or lighter than) - but nobody seems to want to make me that .....

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.....Sensor quality: the 7DII is, for me, a very significant step compared to the 7D in terms of sensor quality. However, when looking at the competition, the dynamic range can still be improved, a lot. I fear Canon will lag behind because they don't have access to the very best in the sensor market (ruled by the bigger players such as Sony). Camera like the Olympus OMD have excellent image quality because of great sensors (even in 4/3).....
I have a friend who is a long time Canon shooter with a 7D II (and Pro glass which they love) and literally said to me the other day that they want to "throw the camera in the bin" every time they shoot alongside a Nikon D7200 and see the results. They are seriously considering options ..... I fear that if an a9II (or decent a7000) lands soon they will be drawn over to the S side .....




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Old Thursday 22nd August 2019, 13:52   #105
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Yes, a physical problem is a good reason to change! And congratulations on getting your pictures published in such prestigious works! You are probably right that the cost/return equation doesn't add up but then apart from serious professional photographers it probably never will. But then the joy we get from it can't be measured in Euros.
I sound like a grump about technology but the point about numbers of frames/second is another misleading benefit. Few of us really need more and particularly when I am shooting fast moving aircraft, maybe 600mph, I still try to capture the perfect moment when the aircraft is at its best angle/position, against the optimum backdrop/lighting, between cloud shadows etc. That is because I grew up on (costly) film cameras where every shot was precious. I see more and more photographers blast away in the hope/expectation that at 10 or more fps there must be a good one in there and most of the results I see don't bear that out. I would have thought particularly if you are intending to sell pictures you are better to go for fewer higher quality shots?
Just my thoughts. I would sooner spend the money on another holiday to Africa and get greater use out of my 7DII with all its qualities and limitations.
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Old Thursday 22nd August 2019, 14:37   #106
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Thumbs up

I'm pretty sure most of us would like to assemble a 'Frankensystem' that combines all the best of IQ, Speed, Reach, Light weight, Ergonomics, Range, Connectivity, and Performance from the best parts of each of the major players products and is magically and seamlessly compatible ......

Something like this ! :)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SR3aIzfNMXM




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Old Friday 23rd August 2019, 07:21   #107
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Everything foxy said.
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Old Friday 23rd August 2019, 07:46   #108
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This whole thread is driven by someone who doesn't even own Canon equipment as far as I'm aware but keeps on bemoaning the speed at which a promised Canon body or lens will come on the market. Why?
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Old Friday 23rd August 2019, 08:03   #109
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Originally Posted by Foxy View Post
Just my thoughts. I would sooner spend the money on another holiday to Africa and get greater use out of my 7DII with all its qualities and limitations.
I have, at the very moment, more money to spend on a trip than time to make said trip.
Africa is actually a continent where an older, less light-sensitive sensor (like the one on the 7DII) will perform very well as the savannah light is (in my memory) invariably great. The pictures below are actually with a 7D (mark I), back in 2009. Originals (non-reduced) are sharper, ofcourse, but it shows that even with a 10-year old, much bashed canon 7D, you can take great pictures in the right circumstances.

https://ethiopia.observation.org/waa.../view/87391595
https://ethiopia.observation.org/waa.../view/87391600
https://ethiopia.observation.org/waa.../view/86990267
https://ethiopia.observation.org/waa.../view/87384402
https://ethiopia.observation.org/waa.../view/87382828
https://ethiopia.observation.org/waa.../view/86993451
https://ethiopia.observation.org/waa.../view/86993448
https://ethiopia.observation.org/waa.../view/86991625
https://ethiopia.observation.org/waa.../view/87384433
https://ethiopia.observation.org/waa.../view/87385792


The last one has me and a couple of Lichtenstein's Sandgrouse in one shot ;-)
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Old Friday 23rd August 2019, 10:25   #110
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This whole thread is driven by someone who doesn't even own Canon equipment as far as I'm aware but keeps on bemoaning the speed at which a promised Canon body or lens will come on the market. Why?
Perhaps never will at this rate ......
See post #104 for the reasons I started a watch on this. It was supposedly on the near horizon back then. I think when there's healthy ongoing competition between makers then that's good for ALL consumers.

I've shot side by side with a 7D II countless times, and used it for a day swap here and there. I won't invest that many $ in glass (great glass btw) and take a step backwards in bodies or sit around in God's waiting room hoping for the next generation only to find it barely keeps up with 5 year old competition. But hey, that's just me. I really should've been an outlaw gunslinger !




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Old Friday 23rd August 2019, 14:08   #111
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I have 2 Canon 7D bodies and 2 Tamron zooms that take me from 16-600mm and am happy with that as i will not be upgrading anytime soon - spare money is for going abroad to use the damn things I also augment these with 2 Lumix Bridge cameras which actually capture more stuff ‘out in the field’ then the ‘heavy artillery’

I have to chuckle to myself when i think that just over 40 years ago i spent nearly 4 months hitching around Kenya as a newbie birder toting, wait for it, a Zenith E and a Vivitar 300mm lens i also had about 100 rolls of Kodachrome 25 slide film - no mean feat as i had to pay the processing costs of the film beforehand.....

OK - prehistoric equipment but i saw the ‘big 5’ outside yes outside any Reserves or National Parks! How times change - i even got my copy of East African Diurnal Birds of Prey actually signed by Leslie Brown when i knocked on his door in Karen, Nairobi. I managed to log about 500 species including lots of wintering Western Palearctic stuff i would not see for years including a hitherto unknown Wintering Basra Reed Warblers that had been rung at Ngulia Safari Lodge in Tsavo West. Not forgetting 2.5 million Flamingos at Lake Nakuru.....or was it Naivasha? it’s all long ago but i don’t get bogged down by equipment these days - it’s what you do with it, where you go and what you see

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Old Friday 23rd August 2019, 19:29   #112
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There's also the 400F4 DO mk2 which by all accounts is an impressive lens. I've never used one but I have held one that was attached to a 7D2 and weight wise it was reassuringly light.
Don't be fooled by any of the hogwash that you read on here about the 7D2 being inferior. The Nikon D500 has a marginally superior sensor, that is common knowledge and has been from day one.
How many people can hold their hands up and say that they have the ability to extract that marginal difference between the two cameras? I've looked at a certain persons images on his gallery and see nothing whatsoever to suggest that he is one of the few.
Stick with what you have, it is absolutely excellent, as is the Nikon.

Recently I was at a location where Short eared Owls were flying close on a salt marsh, there were absolutely dozens of photographers cashing in. An interesting point was that every Nikon user That I spoke to said that they had trouble locking on to a bird that had little contrast between itself and the background. Incidentally, every Canon user I spoke to said exactly the same thing.


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I used to get pretty fired up about all this but I've kind of given up. Honestly for my main desire for a DSLR, which is seabirds from a boat, a 7DII is pretty good still. I'm not about to buy a way more expensive body and might or might not be tempted to buy a 7DIII - it would depend wholly on autofocus performance.

To me, the far greater disappointment is the lack of a meaningful new lens that isn't a heavy, large, expensive offering in the 300-500mm range in the last 20 years. There are three lenses that can realistically take pictures of birds and can be carried over a mortal's shoulder for a full day: the 400/5.6, the 300/4 IS, and the 100-400 (mark I and II). The 100-400 mark II is the best of the lot, perhaps, but is still heavy and bulky. If I could get 7DII AF performance in a lighter weight body, and a new 300 or 400 prime that was significantly lighter weight, that would finally be an advance. But I'm not holding my breath :)

At some point mirrorless AF will get there, it's still not even close. In the meanwhile I'll keep what I've got and wait until the clear answer comes along, perhaps it'll be another 5 years or so but I can't see a good motivation to upgrade any DSLR gear any more, honestly.
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Old Saturday 24th August 2019, 06:54   #113
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Sensor quality: the 7DII is, for me, a very significant step compared to the 7D in terms of sensor quality.
How many Canon shooters of both the 7Dc and the 7D2 feel the upgrade from the original body was a worthy exercise ?? I would normally wait 2 generations to get a noticeable improvement between bodies, so any pictures to illustrate I'm being overly cautious would be appreciated.
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Old Saturday 24th August 2019, 09:16   #114
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I went from 7D to 7DII and whilst I was a bit frustrated by the 7D I have always been very happy with the 7DII. I have had it over 4 years and don't really see a need to upgrade. Sure there are things I could wish it did better (e.g. high ISO performance) but knowing your equipment and how to use it matter far more.

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Old Sunday 25th August 2019, 16:29   #115
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I went from 7D to 7DII and whilst I was a bit frustrated by the 7D I have always been very happy with the 7DII. I have had it over 4 years and don't really see a need to upgrade. Sure there are things I could wish it did better (e.g. high ISO performance) but knowing your equipment and how to use it matter far more.

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Can you elaborate what you didn't like about your 7D please ??
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Old Sunday 25th August 2019, 20:55   #116
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7D: very noisy.
7DII: less noisy.
Competitors: even less noisy.

Other things (speed, focus points, handling, build quality,...) were all satisfying when I had my 7D.
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Old Sunday 25th August 2019, 21:44   #117
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How many Canon shooters of both the 7Dc and the 7D2 feel the upgrade from the original body was a worthy exercise ?? I would normally wait 2 generations to get a noticeable improvement between bodies, so any pictures to illustrate I'm being overly cautious would be appreciated.
Me. I had to go back to my 7d twice, once in 2015 when my 7D II shutter failed after 8 months and once a couple of years ago when I damaged the camera in an almost collision with a suicidal cyclist who forced me into an emergency stop. The camera (and lens), which I had thought to be secure on the floor behind the driver’s seat of my VW people carrier hire car came to an abrupt rest against the undercarriage of the seat. The seat had a lot more space underneath than I was used to and there was room for the camera to roll. The camera went away for repair and I was back to using the 7D for two or three weeks.

I couldn’t wait for the mark II to come back. The difference was amazing.
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Old Monday 26th August 2019, 06:06   #118
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7D: very noisy.
7DII: less noisy.
Competitors: even less noisy.

Other things (speed, focus points, handling, build quality,...) were all satisfying when I had my 7D.
I'm not sure about competitors (never used one) but I agree with most of the rest. Not speed: I also had to revert to the 7D for a couple of days after a soaking for my 7DII in Yellowstone rain, and compared to the brrrap of the latter at max chat the 7D sounded soooo clunky.

I'm not really in favour of long burst machine-gunning (oh yes, it seems to me the 7DII buffers less, as well) but the FPS enables you to capture that exact moment in a piece of action more reliably as opposed to being just after or just before. The fox's yawn, chameleon's tongue, small bird hopping fast through vegetation etc.

I have recently bought a second one just because the first's shutter count had passed 350,000 and I didn't want it to critically fail during a long trip or similar desperate circumstance. As I own a well-used 500 f4 and a couple of white zooms and am not either a pro tog or plutocrat, changing manufacturers and starting again is not really an option. I suspect I am part of the core market for a 7DIII: the new 90D does not attract me.

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Old Tuesday 27th August 2019, 15:44   #119
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D Day ....

90D announcement due later on today, with a rumoured mid-September release for $1199. https://www.canonnews.com/updated-sh...and-m6-mark-ii

We will soon get to see how good the AF and sensor DR /Noise are, and whether the one Digic 8 processor is indeed multicored and can handle the load at top whack without those footnotes crippling it out of the blocks.

As more of a 80D replacement than a 7D II one, it will be interesting to see how the performance pans out, and how it places against the Nikon (D7500, D7600?) , and Sony competition ....

A 32.5 MP Canon APS-C sensor is equivalent to an 83.2MP FF sensor which may point to an ~80MP R8. It is also equivalent to a 20.8MP MFT sensor - so finally matching the resolution of the latest con/prosumer cameras in that format.




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Old Tuesday 27th August 2019, 22:35   #120
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How many Canon shooters of both the 7Dc and the 7D2 feel the upgrade from the original body was a worthy exercise ?? I would normally wait 2 generations to get a noticeable improvement between bodies, so any pictures to illustrate I'm being overly cautious would be appreciated.
It was a very big upgrade. The 7D2 did everything better, much better! At the time of the 7D2 release Canon were probably in no mans land to an extent with their sensors. They no doubt released the best they had sensor wise but it still marginally lagged behind the main opposition.
I haven't used a 7D2 since 2016. I don't profess to being anything more than an enthusiast but you can see my efforts with a 7D2 on page 6 of my flickr site. If you also look at page 10 you can compare the shots with the 7D that I previously used.
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Old Wednesday 28th August 2019, 00:25   #121
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A 32.5 MP Canon APS-C sensor is equivalent to an 83.2MP FF sensor which may point to an ~80MP R8. It is also equivalent to a 20.8MP MFT sensor - so finally matching the resolution of the latest con/prosumer cameras in that format.




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Which also should mean similar iso/noise behavior?
(Not that is a truly bad thing but the difference has often been used to point a finger at m43)

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Old Friday 30th August 2019, 19:23   #122
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Question 7D III before 2020 Olympics .....

Or ...... never .......

https://www.canonnews.com/canon-and-...what-is-coming
So goes the analysis from rumour site Canon News. The thinking is that the next generation DSLR will leverage technology from the 1DX III flagship. This seems like a logical last roll of the dice. Conversely, silence on the 7D III through the Olympics would then indicate an R mount Mirrorless solution.




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Old Saturday 31st August 2019, 02:32   #123
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My (growing) urge to change is a broken collarbone some weeks ago; all weight on that (right) shoulder is hurting. So less weight is less hurting...
If I would start again, I would buy either the Nikon or Olympus just for the weight.
Some time ago I wanted to try and get the lightest rig that's good for birds. So I made this spreadsheet. It is sorted by weight. The EM1m2 w/ Panny 100-400 is the clear winner for both weight and focal length.

Some combos I expected to use a TC on, so they are listed with a TC and show the focal length with and without. Those rows without a TC show the same focal length in both columns. If a TC is listed in the row, it is part of the weight too.

I suspect that the new a6600 or a7000 with the 200-600 would be a good contender, but I have not had a chance to add it into the table.

The Canon 400 DO listed in the table is the DO II.

I shoot the d850 + 500mm f/5.6, but I do not use the TC, even though I listed it that way in the table -- it was before I got the combo and decided I didn't need it.

Marc

Code:
			Focal Length	With TC		Price 	Lbs 	KGs
EM1m2	100-400		800 f/6.3	800 f/6.3	3297	3.46	1.56
A6400	100-400, 1.4x	600 f/5.6	840 f/8		3946	4.25	1.91
A7R3	100-400, 1.4x	400 f/5.6	560 f/8		5848	4.82	2.17
EM1m2	300mm, 1.4x	600 f/4		840 f/5.6	4547	4.84	2.18
d7500	500mm PF, 1.4x	750 f/5.6	1050 f/8	4795	5.29	2.38
A6400	150-600C	900 f/6.3	900 f/6.3	2136	5.68	2.55
d500	500mm PF, 1.4x	750 f/5.6	1050 f/8	5876	5.79	2.61
d7500	150-600g2	900 f/6.3	900 f/6.3	1999	5.8	2.61
d850	500mm PF, 1.4x	500 f/5.6	700 f/8		7192	5.89	2.65
A7R3	150-600C	600 f/6.3	600 f/6.3	4038	6.25	2.81
d500	150-600g2	900 f/6.3	900 f/6.3	3080	6.30	2.84
d850	150-600g2	600 f/6.3	600 f/6.3	4396	6.40	2.88
EOS-R	400mm DO, 1.4x	400 f/4		560 f/5.6	9828	6.88	3.10
5dm4	400mm DO, 1.4x	400 f/4		560 f/5.6	10328	7.09	3.19
7dm2	400mm DO, 1.4x	640 f/4		896 f/5.6	8828	7.09	3.19
5dm4	300mm, 2x	300 f/2.8	600 f/5.6	9528	7.99	3.60
5dm4	400mm 3, 1.4x	400 f/2.8	560 f/4		15428	8.74	3.93
d850	300mm, 2x	300 f/2.8	600 f/5.6	9088	9.09	4.09
d850	500mm, 1.4x	500 f/4		700 f/5.6	13892	9.49	4.27
d850	400mm, 1.4x	400 f/2.8	560 f/4		9088	10.99	4.95
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Old Tuesday 3rd September 2019, 10:34   #124
Chosun Juan
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Originally Posted by marcsantacurz View Post
Some time ago I wanted to try and get the lightest rig that's good for birds. So I made this spreadsheet. It is sorted by weight. The EM1m2 w/ Panny 100-400 is the clear winner for both weight and focal length.
Good table Marc

It shows how much bang for the buck you are getting with the Nikon D7500 + Tamron G2 150-600 f6.3 ..... and also how expensive it quickly gets to drop the weight from there while maintaining the focal length and aperture speed.

The Canon 90D with Tammy G2 150-600 would make a similarly reasonably priced /weighted rig too. Eq focal length 960 /f6.3, $2500, weight = 6lbs (2.72kg).

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/63056457
Early indications are that the 90D's DR is pretty much line ball with the 80D ..... so it looks like the discontinued Nikon D7200 is still the unchallenged low ISO king.

It remains to be seen whether the 90D's multi-core single Digic 8 processor and uprated metering sensor can provide AF performance equal to the 7D II given the lesser number of cross type focus points.

The way Sony is nailing their AF though, there seems to be plenty of market space for a high performing 7D III .....that seems to be the feeling among the Canon punters too.



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Last edited by Chosun Juan : Tuesday 3rd September 2019 at 11:39.
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Old Thursday 5th March 2020, 10:45   #125
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Well, the big brother 1DX III has arrived with still nary a whisper still of a sibling 7D III. The good news is that Canon has had a real go with the 1DX III with plenty of tech and plenty of room to transfer a stack of goodies to a 7D III.

The big news of course is that half the world is on the verge of shutting down because of COVID-19. Canon has already shut down 5 factories because of supply issues.
https://m.dpreview.com/articles/8598...photo-industry

With no production could this actually represent an opportunity for the backroom propeller heads to get in there and smash out a 7D III rather than sitting there twiddling their thumbs ...... ?





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