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Old Sunday 16th February 2020, 08:22   #26
Farnboro John
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I made exactly this point in another thread and if they were used, I doubt anyway that many would know what they denote. We don't have an 'acute', umlaut or cedilla. In some Slavic languages, there is also a similar mark that turns a C in to a 'ch' sound so where does it end?

Maybe there is an argument for a phonetic spelling in cases where there isn't a true, alphabetic representation when using a non English word with such an indication as to pronunciation, hence 'Jasana'?
Or maybe the Anglicisation of words is just a thing, so get over it?

Having been brought up by a secondary school French teacher and not only defied her frequent demands for French pronunciation to be applied to words long-Anglicised but argued that in such cases regardless of her special knowledge she was just wrong, I haven't much time for this sort of thing except where it damages understanding: for which we have scientific names that hardly anybody pronounces as the ancients would have.....

Incidentally you should have been with us in the Italian restaurant when Mum thought Lasagne must enjoy the same pronunciation as Dordogne... oh how we laughed.

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Old Sunday 16th February 2020, 08:38   #27
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As an aside, a digression. Every year here in the UK around the end of October we see complaints about the Americanisation of Halloween by “trick or treating”. However, this is just an American version of the Scots tradition of “guising”.

When “guising” Scots children traditionally put on costumes and pretended that they were malicious spirits as they went ‘guising’ around the local streets. The belief was that, in disguising themselves, they would not be recognised by any wandering spirits and stay safe from harm. Once they had performed their tricks or songs, the guisers were given gifts to help ward off evil.

Nothing to do with birds, but maybe of some interest to someone. David
The word 'disguise' may come from the same ancient root, if by a roundabout way via Old French...
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Old Sunday 16th February 2020, 08:59   #28
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Or maybe the Anglicisation of words is just a thing, so get over it?

Having been brought up by a secondary school French teacher and not only defied her frequent demands for French pronunciation to be applied to words long-Anglicised but argued that in such cases regardless of her special knowledge she was just wrong, I haven't much time for this sort of thing except where it damages understanding: for which we have scientific names that hardly anybody pronounces as the ancients would have.....

Incidentally you should have been with us in the Italian restaurant when Mum thought Lasagne must enjoy the same pronunciation as Dordogne... oh how we laughed.

John
Back in the late 70's, a mate and I were in Greece with a group of people having dinner. The waiter approched my mate who sat back confidently in his seat and in such a wordly way, he said, I'll start with the 'Mine-strone' soup, I actually fell off my chair..................
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Old Sunday 16th February 2020, 09:16   #29
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You'll rarely find people writing in English and using diacritically marked letters like "ç", and the species is called "Jacana" in all of the major field guides.
But, on the other hand, Araçari is written with a cedilla in a number of English-language sources (still recently in HBW, including HBW Alive -- e.g. https://www.hbw.com/species/green-ar...lossus-viridis -- probably doomed to vanish soon, though ). In French, despite we use cedillas, we do the same thing: araçari with one, but not jacana.
It used to be written Jassana in German. But this then gave way to the "pure German" Blatthühnchen (= leaf-gallinule), and the original spelling of the word may be on its way to oblivion (in any case, Wikipedia now says "oder Jacanas"...).

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Old Sunday 16th February 2020, 10:25   #30
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But, on the other hand, Araçari is written with a cedilla in a number of English-language sources (still recently in HBW, including HBW Alive -- e.g. https://www.hbw.com/species/green-ar...lossus-viridis -- probably doomed to vanish soon, though ). In French, despite we use cedillas, we do the same thing: araçari with one, but not jacana.
It used to be written Jassana in German. But this then gave way to the "pure German" Blatthühnchen (= leaf-gallinule), and the original spelling of the word may be on its way to oblivion (in any case, Wikipedia now says "oder Jacanas"...).
Not a million miles from the childhood name I knew, Lilly-trotter.
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Old Sunday 16th February 2020, 14:17   #31
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Not a million miles from the childhood name I knew, Lilly-trotter.
Childhood, Andy? I had always thought you had been hewn from granite...!
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Old Sunday 16th February 2020, 14:49   #32
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Childhood, Andy? I had always thought you had been hewn from granite...!
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I like to think of myself as more of a metamorphic than igneous.........
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Old Sunday 16th February 2020, 18:00   #33
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Or maybe the Anglicisation of words is just a thing, so get over it?
Well, yeah, it is a thing. When English borrows a word from another language (which it does frequently), it takes a certain length of time but eventually the word becomes naturalized in English. The naturalization period varies depending on many conditions but eventually people won't even remember that it was naturalized. For example people don't think of "ketchup" as coming from a Malay word for "fish sauce", it's just that sweet red goopy tomato sauce.

Likewise "jaçana" is being naturalized in English and it's going to be pronounced "ja-KA-na".
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Old Sunday 16th February 2020, 18:23   #34
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Well, yeah, it is a thing. When English borrows a word from another language (which it does frequently), it takes a certain length of time but eventually the word becomes naturalized in English. The naturalization period varies depending on many conditions but eventually people won't even remember that it was naturalized. For example people don't think of "ketchup" as coming from a Malay word for "fish sauce", it's just that sweet red goopy tomato sauce.

Likewise "jaçana" is being naturalized in English and it's going to be pronounced "ja-KA-na".
That's seems to be not quite true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketchup

Or

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/c...chup-invented/

Whilst travelling in Asia in the past, I've also seen it written as 'ketsup'.
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Old Sunday 16th February 2020, 18:35   #35
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Likewise "jaçana" is being naturalized in English and it's going to be pronounced "ja-KA-na".
The 2 words are phonetically distinct. While the Portuguese word derives from the phonetically similar Tupi spoken word "ñaha'nã", the English language word seems to result from an old "mistake" (I stress the commas), where the ç was just replaced by the the letter that looks morphologically closer (the "c"), perhaps from a word written on a tag of a specimen from Brazil (just speculating here). However the "ç" does not have anything to do with a "c" phonetically. Thus an entirely new word was created (as the Portuguese word also is). All languages are fluid and evolving, I'm not saying one is better than the other, just thought with would be interesting to mention it above. In the case of the Açores islands, the problem was solved by writing it Azores (which is closer, but not quite, to the original sound, which is also the name of a bird).
Note also that the stress or the word "Jaçanã" is on the last syllable, not on the middle one.
However, I could list quite a few Hawaiian species where adapting the word to the English language was not clearly the rule followed, where birds received names that attempted to approach phonetically as much as possible the known local names (also others, from NZ, and some other places).
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Old Sunday 16th February 2020, 20:50   #36
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I like to think of myself as more of a metamorphic than igneous.........
So your final form was the result of external pressure rather than becoming cool?

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Old Sunday 16th February 2020, 20:57   #37
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So your final form was the result of external pressure rather than becoming cool?


Did you learn that in sedimentary school? Been keeping out of this langwich debate so far, but that rocks!
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Old Sunday 16th February 2020, 21:57   #38
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Back in the late 70's, a mate and I were in Greece with a group of people having dinner. The waiter approched my mate who sat back confidently in his seat and in such a wordly way, he said, I'll start with the 'Mine-strone' soup, I actually fell off my chair..................
He presumably meant 'mine strewn' . . . did it blow up in his face?
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Old Sunday 16th February 2020, 22:05   #39
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You'll rarely find people writing in English and using diacritically marked letters like "ç", and the species is called "Jacana" in all of the major field guides.
Could be English, but it could also be scholarly Latin, which also doesn't use cedillas - the scientific name was coined by Linnaeus (here) wrongly as 'jacana' (and thus inevitably a "k" sound as 'c' always is in Latin); he probably should have transliterated Portuguese 'jaçana' into Latin as 'jassana'; if he had done, then likely that spelling, rather than 'jacana', would be the standard today.
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Old Sunday 16th February 2020, 22:13   #40
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Could be English, but it could also be scholarly Latin, which also doesn't use cedillas - the scientific name was coined by Linnaeus (here) wrongly as 'jacana' (and thus inevitably a "k" sound as 'c' always is in Latin); he probably should have transliterated Portuguese 'jaçana' into Latin as 'jassana'; if he had done, then likely that spelling, rather than 'jacana', would be the standard today.
That was more or less my point above. Thanks.
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Old Monday 17th February 2020, 05:56   #41
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So your final form was the result of external pressure rather than becoming cool?

John
I prefer to say that I was sculpted by select, outside influences.

The only external force acting on me now is gravity, evidenced by the fact that my ***s, now hit the bathwater ten minutes before my ass does.
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Old Monday 17th February 2020, 06:00   #42
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He presumably meant 'mine strewn' . . . did it blow up in his face?
He meant minestrone in case that was over your head Nutty
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Old Monday 17th February 2020, 08:54   #43
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I like to think of myself as more of a metamorphic than igneous.........
A bit like that wonderful Terry Pratchett Discworld character, Detritus, who joined the Ankh-Morpork Night Watch, then...?
MJB
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Old Monday 17th February 2020, 09:13   #44
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Could be English, but it could also be scholarly Latin, which also doesn't use cedillas - the scientific name was coined by Linnaeus (here) wrongly as 'jacana' (and thus inevitably a "k" sound as 'c' always is in Latin); he probably should have transliterated Portuguese 'jaçana' into Latin as 'jassana'; if he had done, then likely that spelling, rather than 'jacana', would be the standard today.
Linnaeus took this name from Marcgrave, Edwards and Brisson.

Marcgrave (1648 https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/43153490 ) spelled it Iacana in a text that was indeed Latin, without cedillas -- so this is probably where the cedilla got lost. He attributed the word to the Brazilians ('Brasiliensibus'), and used it as an apparent generic name for 'water hens' ('gallina aquatica, Waterhun', with the last word printed in Gothic and presumably intended to be German or Dutch). He described four 'species' of this group : the first one was quite clearly the American Purple Gallinule (i.a.: white undertail, a rotund area of turquoise-coloured naked skin on the head, the neck and breast of the colour of the neck of peafowl, yellow legs, no wing spurs [the presence of spurs is listed under the next species as a difference between this and the first species]); the other three all had spurs on the wings, thus (in Brazil and assuming none was a lapwing) were presumably all Wattled Jacanas of different ages/plumages.

Brisson (1760 https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/36294403 ) presumably adopted the term from Marcgrave, merely turning the initial I into a J. Brisson is deemed to have introduced Jacana as a generic name, before Linnaeus used it as a species-group name. In this genus, he listed what were basically Marcgrave's four species, naming them (French / Latin):
- Le Jacana / Jacana (= Marcgrave's first species, now Porphyrio martinicus (Linnaeus 1766) -- so much for this being the type-species of Brisson's genus "by tautonymy" -- e.g. https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/14483041 )
- Le Jacana armé ou le Chiriugien / Jacana armata
- Le Chirurgien noir / Jacana armata nigra
- Le Chirurgien brun / Jacana armata fusca
...to which he added a fifth species:
- Le Chirurgien varié / Jacana armata varia
...which was based on a plate by Edwards (1743, #58, "The Spur-winged Water Hen" https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/50240691 ), named by Linnaeus Fulica spinosa in 1758 (https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/727059 ).

Edwards (1764 https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/50176674 ) published texts that were bilingual English and French, but he did not use Jacana as an English or French word. He used it only once, in a table at the end of the last part of his work where he added (non-binominal) Latin names to the species he had described in the main text. Jacana armata nigra et rubra was the Latin name given to his plate #357 (https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/50176647 ), in English "The spur-winged Water-hen of Brasil", in French "Le Chirurgien du Bresil".

Then came Linnaeus 1766, who used jacana as a species-group name (for, i.a., Marcgrave's / Brisson's fourth species and Edward's plate #357).

Ii have not seen Jacana used as an English word before that point.

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Old Monday 17th February 2020, 10:09   #45
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A bit like that wonderful Terry Pratchett Discworld character, Detritus, who joined the Ankh-Morpork Night Watch, then...?
MJB
The resemblance is remarkable......
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Old Monday 17th February 2020, 11:57   #46
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Linnaeus took this name from Marcgrave, Edwards and Brisson.

Marcgrave (1648 https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/43153490 ) spelled it Iacana in a text that was indeed Latin, without cedillas -- so this is probably where the cedilla got lost. He attributed the word to the Brazilians ('Brasiliensibus'), and used it as an apparent generic name for 'water hens' ('gallina aquatica, Waterhun', with the last word printed in Gothic and presumably intended to be German or Dutch). He described four 'species' of this group : the first one was quite clearly the American Purple Gallinule (i.a.: white undertail, a rotund area of turquoise-coloured naked skin on the head, the neck and breast of the colour of the neck of peafowl, yellow legs, no wing spurs [the presence of spurs is listed under the next species as a difference between this and the first species]); the other three all had spurs on the wings, thus (in Brazil and assuming none was a lapwing) were presumably all Wattled Jacanas of different ages/plumages.

Brisson (1760 https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/36294403 ) presumably adopted the term from Marcgrave, merely turning the initial I into a J. Brisson is deemed to have introduced Jacana as a generic name, before Linnaeus used it as a species-group name. In this genus, he listed what were basically Marcgrave's four species, naming them (French / Latin):
- Le Jacana / Jacana (= Marcgrave's first species, now Porphyrio martinicus (Linnaeus 1766) -- so much for this being the type-species of Brisson's genus "by tautonymy" -- e.g. https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/14483041 )
- Le Jacana armé ou le Chiriugien / Jacana armata
- Le Chirurgien noir / Jacana armata nigra
- Le Chirurgien brun / Jacana armata fusca
...to which he added a fifth species:
- Le Chirurgien varié / Jacana armata varia
...which was based on a plate by Edwards (1743, #58, "The Spur-winged Water Hen" https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/50240691 ), named by Linnaeus Fulica spinosa in 1758 (https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/727059 ).

Edwards (1764 https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/50176674 ) published texts that were bilingual English and French, but he did not use Jacana as an English or French word. He used it only once, in a table at the end of the last part of his work where he added (non-binominal) Latin names to the species he had described in the main text. Jacana armata nigra et rubra was the Latin name given to his plate #357 (https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/50176647 ), in English "The spur-winged Water-hen of Brasil", in French "Le Chirurgien du Bresil".

Then came Linnaeus 1766, who used jacana as a species-group name (for, i.a., Marcgrave's / Brisson's fourth species and Edward's plate #357).

Ii have not seen Jacana used as an English word before that point.
All very interesting, many thanks Laurent.
Just for completeness sake, and I hope I'm not beating a dead horse, it wasn't only the cedilla that was lost, but also the til on the last syllable, where the word is stressed (as in ja-ça-NÃ). The "ã" is pronounced like the "ean" of the French word "Jean", and not as in an English word like say "Tarzan", if this makes sense. All special characters were sent to space :)
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