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Old Wednesday 19th February 2020, 23:39   #351
etudiant
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
https://insideevs.com/news/398981/fo...EDeJrCbRYyQnGc

Seems to be a lot of thus going on ..... jewelry shops squeezing on one side, faceless order books queued in remote computer memory on the other

Chosun
In fairness, most people really don't want to ever visit a car dealer, much less deal with them. They have a dreadful reputation, at least here in the US.
Add to that the reality that electrics don't need as much maintenance as IC engine powered cars, Ford's move makes good sense.

It has been coherently argued that the lack of dealer support killed the GM Volt, which was a well conceived hybrid. Ford's solution is to cut out the dealer from the equation. Given the reality of trade ins, that may be a risky choice, but it does wipe the slate clean for E cars as a new start.
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Old Thursday 20th February 2020, 09:29   #352
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Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
In fairness, most people really don't want to ever visit a car dealer, much less deal with them. They have a dreadful reputation, at least here in the US.
Add to that the reality that electrics don't need as much maintenance as IC engine powered cars, Ford's move makes good sense.

It has been coherently argued that the lack of dealer support killed the GM Volt, which was a well conceived hybrid. Ford's solution is to cut out the dealer from the equation. Given the reality of trade ins, that may be a risky choice, but it does wipe the slate clean for E cars as a new start.
To bring this into the perspective of the optics branch:
The product is everywhere the same, so the dealer with the dreadful reputation won't make it anyway from the consumers point of view.
That brings us to the lack of dealer support to the brand (read: Leica) from the multi brand dealers side regarding the Leica sales compared to the other brand sales (read: Zeiss/Swarovski).
It is an undeniable fact that the consumer, given a choice between the Noctivid, SF and ELSV, does not fall in love for the Noctivid.
Seen in that light is the Leica move: "Don't give the customer a multi brand choice" more understandable.
Is it a right one? The future will tell.

Jan
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Old Thursday 20th February 2020, 10:23   #353
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Question

They could always build a better mousetrap !

Jan - what are the reasons the customer's are giving for not choosing the Noctivid in preference to the other big two (or any other binocular) .... ?






Chosun
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Old Thursday 20th February 2020, 11:59   #354
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
They could always build a better mousetrap !

Jan - what are the reasons the customer's are giving for not choosing the Noctivid in preference to the other big two (or any other binocular) .... ?






Chosun
,

The overall consensus is:
Between the three, the Noctivid feels the most heavy, the strap connection bites in the hand and while holding the fingertips touch a nasty edge. There are no complaints about the view.
And what follows is the big question and we could put that in the box "dealer support" and that is: "What is the difference in after sales/service/warranty".
The honest and only answer from us is that all three brands have the same warranty but when it comes to coulance there is only one brand that is far above the rest and her name is Swarovski.
On that moment the Nocti is the first to leave the table and it is SF versus ELSV.
The better balance and FOV of the SF against the after sales of Swarovski.
To prove my point, we still have the Noctivid minus 30% and it still won't sell.

Jan

Last edited by jan van daalen : Thursday 20th February 2020 at 12:02.
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Old Thursday 20th February 2020, 12:18   #355
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Thanks for that input Jan
I've always felt the NV was somewhat of a little missed opportunity for Leica - seems I'm not the only one that values the feel of, and actual light weight





Chosun


P.S. Had to look up "coulance" - learnt a new word today - I think !
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Old Thursday 20th February 2020, 12:31   #356
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Originally Posted by jan van daalen View Post
To bring this into the perspective of the optics branch: The product is everywhere the same....

Seen in that light is the Leica move: "Don't give the customer a multi brand choice" more understandable.
Is it a right one? The future will tell.

Jan
Perhaps Apple, whose business model is the 'walled garden' to keep the customer locked in, is the inspiration here.
The key though is that there has to be a garden in the first place, else customers stray.
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Old Thursday 20th February 2020, 14:06   #357
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Perhaps Apple, whose business model is the 'walled garden' to keep the customer locked in, is the inspiration here.
The key though is that there has to be a garden in the first place, else customers stray.
And in the same garden can be found the Apple Store, Gucci, Coach, Tesla, Leica...

There are shopping areas around here that make that possible.

-Bill
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Old Friday 21st February 2020, 00:35   #358
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Originally Posted by jan van daalen View Post
That brings us to the lack of dealer support to the brand (read: Leica) from the multi brand dealers side regarding the Leica sales compared to the other brand sales (read: Zeiss/Swarovski).
It is an undeniable fact that the consumer, given a choice between the Noctivid, SF and ELSV, does not fall in love for the Noctivid.

Jan
Sounds like you're well rid of a third class product then...
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Old Friday 21st February 2020, 06:58   #359
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Sounds like you're well rid of a third class product then...
I wouldn't call them a third class product

Jan
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Old Sunday 23rd February 2020, 16:25   #360
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Hi Jan,

Now I understand why you had such a nice discount on the Leica’s in your store.

Too bad Leica is doing this to their dealers. Lucky for me in this case, that you are not just letting this happen. But I totally understand that you are doing this
I really enjoy my Trinovid 10x42HD now hoping for better weather to use them a bit more.
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Old Sunday 23rd February 2020, 22:12   #361
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Jan, I agree with you, the Noctovid does not make the grade in comparing to the Zeiss and Swarovski models.

I found a Noctovid and tried it in a store setting, it is not a great compromise in the open frame.

If looking Leica, the Ultravid is a better choice, with its classic character and nice optics.

Jerry
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Old Monday 24th February 2020, 05:43   #362
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Are you talking about the Noctovid or the Noctivid?
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Old Monday 24th February 2020, 09:14   #363
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Probably futile to point out that not everyone prefers the nausea inducing SV or the just too big SF to the Noctivid....

Jan, just as a matter of interest, what is your price on an 8x42 NV? I can agree that the ergonomics are not perfect, but for me (and I’m sure a good many others) the view is the best of the big three.
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Old Monday 24th February 2020, 11:05   #364
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I have the SV 8.5X42 and the Noctivid, I used to own the SF. I prefer the views of the Noctivid, but I also do like the extra 0.5X on the SV.
I am not a birder by definition more of a nature observer and what I have observed is that (some) Birders are obsessed by the weight of a glass to the nearest gram, others who use the glass (the other sport we are not allowed to talk about and who actually provide more $$ for the environment)) are not, and they actually trudge through the wilderness carrying more gear than a birder.

IMO the SF is not built to the standards of the FL, nice FOV but that is it for me. I still have and use a few of the FL models, great glass.

My favorite glass is still the EDG in both the 8 and 10X42.

Additionally when I buy a glass, I am not shopping for a warranty, I will pay for repairs myself, like I pay for my car when it needs repair, or anything on my residence which I cannot fix myself. I am not looking for a free lunch.

The design of glass many of the large companies today are driven by the Birding business and for the elderly population so I can understand the need for lighter weight and more eye relief for eyeglass clients, but not everyone needs to have a maximum of 600 grams of weight to go on a 2 hour walk in the woods.

Andy W.

Last edited by dries1 : Monday 24th February 2020 at 12:01.
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Old Monday 24th February 2020, 11:55   #365
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Are you talking about the Noctovid or the Noctivid?
The Nocitoutofparkvid.

Jerry
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Old Monday 24th February 2020, 14:08   #366
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Probably futile to point out that not everyone prefers the nausea inducing SV or the just too big SF to the Noctivid....

Jan, just as a matter of interest, what is your price on an 8x42 NV? I can agree that the ergonomics are not perfect, but for me (and Im sure a good many others) the view is the best of the big three.
AMEN to all the above!
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Old Monday 24th February 2020, 19:32   #367
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Probably futile to point out that not everyone prefers the nausea inducing SV or the just too big SF to the Noctivid....
I'm curious why you like the 2011-15 Trinovid 42 (as I do) if you so dislike the RB effect in SVs. I'm not very sensitive to RB myself, but do find that the Trinovid has a somewhat similar effect also, due to less pincushioning. Or perhaps it's more evident in my 10x than your 8x. In any case I assume it's one reason why this model was abandoned.

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The design of glass many of the large companies today are driven by the Birding business and for the elderly population so I can understand the need for lighter weight and more eye relief for eyeglass clients, but not everyone needs to have a maximum of 600 grams of weight to go on a 2 hour walk in the woods.
As someone for whom birding is "only" part of general appreciation of nature, I have to agree with you here. I wish that 42mm binos in particular didn't suffer so many compromises in performance in order to be quite so lightweight and compact.
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Old Monday 24th February 2020, 20:32   #368
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I'm curious why you like the 2011-15 Trinovid 42 (as I do) if you so dislike the RB effect in SVs. I'm not very sensitive to RB myself, but do find that the Trinovid has a somewhat similar effect also, due to less pincushioning. Or perhaps it's more evident in my 10x than your 8x. In any case I assume it's one reason why this model was abandoned.
I have to say that I've never noticed any RB in my 8X42 2012-15 Trinovids, but it was immediately obvious to me when I tried some SV 8.5X42's. I've always assumed the reason why 2012-15 Trinovid was discontinued after such a short time was that it was too damned inconvenient to have to write '2012-15 Trinovid' every time (OK, only joking! ), I mean, too close in performance to the significantly more expensive Ultravid, but to expensive to compete with mid-priced bins from other manufacturers.
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Old Monday 24th February 2020, 23:25   #369
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Four years is not a particularly "short" time, and the Trinovid's positioning vs the UVs (and others) was obviously known in advance. And it was just 42s, not a whole line. That's why I suspect a market test of its optics, with a somewhat different character from previous Leicas. And apparently that was deemed a failure.
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Old Monday 24th February 2020, 23:26   #370
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I wouldn't call them a third class product

Jan
I would never have expected you to have given that last opinion, not after reading your posts #352 and #354. It certainly seems from those posts that the NVs won't be missed by your clients, or yourself...
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Old Tuesday 25th February 2020, 00:25   #371
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Patudo, you seem to not like Leica in general, I guess Leica never provided enough ER for you then.

Andy W.
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Old Tuesday 25th February 2020, 02:40   #372
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What are you all smoking? Jan, a very supportive dealer, got screwed by Leica. Doesn't mean their products are awful. He just chose to end his relationship with them. That's a divorce, not a condemnation of their product. Yes, Leica is over-priced, and, yes, they are not pursuing the cutting edge of performance in binocularland... Still, they have made, and continue to make, some fine products.

This eye relief rant... Non-eyeglass wearers have over a centuries worth of binoculars to collect and use. The fact that manufacturers are actually making an amazing optical device accessible to more people is a good thing. And you don't have to be elderly to wear glasses. I've had to wear them since I was 5 years old.

Back to hair splitting, gossip, and whining...

-B.

Last edited by wdc : Tuesday 25th February 2020 at 04:05.
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Old Tuesday 25th February 2020, 04:16   #373
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As someone for whom birding is "only" part of general appreciation of nature, I have to agree with you here. I wish that 42mm binos in particular didn't suffer so many compromises in performance in order to be quite so lightweight and compact.
Tenex, I am curious. What compromises in performance are you referring to that 42mm binoculars have suffered? Glare? FOV?

-Bill
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Old Tuesday 25th February 2020, 07:46   #374
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Originally Posted by jan van daalen View Post
The Retrovid is back from our technician and will go to Gijs for a transmission chart.
I traded a Leica 7x35GA Trinovid from 1986 so this makes a 1966, 1967, 1982, 1986 and a 2020 model available for comparison.
Jan
Hi Jan,

do you have already any news for us?

Thomas
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Old Tuesday 25th February 2020, 12:13   #375
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Just got back from Austria for the DG instruction so my answers are a bit delayed (as were the planes).
Price Nocti 8x42 inside EU 1.835,00 euro and outside EU (no VAT) 1.450,00 euro ex transport.

Jan
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