Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Zeiss - Always on the lookout for something special – Shop now

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Which flycatcher? | Hegurajima jp, may

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Monday 14th January 2019, 09:25   #1
HouseCrow
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: netherlands
Posts: 194
Which flycatcher? | Hegurajima jp, may

Hi again,
reasonable photos but no option to look at the front... few visible features on this flycatcher that doesn't look like one of the brown flycatchers (Asian Brown, Grey-streaked, Dark-sided)

NB. on Hegurajima rarities are often less rare than elsewhere in Japan (much like Scilly Islands, and Helgoland, i imagine)


What would you say it is?

hope to hear from you,

regards,
Gerben
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	2018-05-21 14.19.33-1.jpg
Views:	23
Size:	412.3 KB
ID:	684702  Click image for larger version

Name:	2018-05-21 14.19.04-1-Geelbrauwvliegenvanger-vrouw-onzeker.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	442.4 KB
ID:	684703  

Last edited by HouseCrow : Monday 14th January 2019 at 09:28.
HouseCrow is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 14th January 2019, 11:03   #2
Grahame Walbridge
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Portland
Posts: 2,159
1st-winter female Blue-and-White/Zappey's Flycatcher. Females are currently considered inseparable on current knowledge, aged as 1st-w on account of retained (pale fringed) greater coverts.

Grahame
Grahame Walbridge is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 14th January 2019, 11:14   #3
HouseCrow
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: netherlands
Posts: 194
Thanks for the reply Grahame, the photo was taken on 21 may... I suppose that would make it either juvenile or adult...if i'm not mistaken.

I must admit I've never even heard of Zappey's. Will look into it.





regards,
Gerben

Last edited by HouseCrow : Monday 14th January 2019 at 11:22.
HouseCrow is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 14th January 2019, 11:22   #4
Grahame Walbridge
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Portland
Posts: 2,159
Quote:
Originally Posted by HouseCrow View Post
Thanks for the reply Grahame, the photo was taken on 21 may... I suppose that would make it either juvenile or adult...if i'm not mistaken.

I must admit I've never even heard of Zappey's. Will look into it

regards,
Gerben
Its a 2cy female.

More on Zappey's https://orientalbirdclub.org/wp-cont...Flycatcher.pdf

Grahame
Grahame Walbridge is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 14th January 2019, 11:29   #5
HouseCrow
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: netherlands
Posts: 194
Thanks for the quick clarification Grahame. I found the info on the 2 species there...
2nd cy blue&white flycatcher spec. it is. I imagine Zappey's at Hegurajima in spring would be unlikely but not at all inconceivable.

Good to know
best regards,
Gerben

Last edited by HouseCrow : Monday 14th January 2019 at 11:33.
HouseCrow is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 14th January 2019, 11:53   #6
Grahame Walbridge
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Portland
Posts: 2,159
Quote:
Originally Posted by HouseCrow View Post
Thanks for the quick clarification Grahame. I found the info on the 2 species there...
2nd cy blue&white flycatcher spec. it is. I imagine Zappey's at Hegurajima in spring would be unlikely but not at all inconceivable.

Good to know
best regards,
Gerben
Yes, I should have stated Blue-and-White would be overwhelmingly the likely option since Zappey's is an accidental to Japan (?4 records, presumably all males) though it may well have been overlooked in the past and just as likely to turn up as a spring overshoot IMO.

Grahame

Last edited by Grahame Walbridge : Monday 14th January 2019 at 12:01.
Grahame Walbridge is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 14th January 2019, 12:33   #7
HouseCrow
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: netherlands
Posts: 194
I need to learn Japanese so that i too can find info on those numbers of zappey's... Thanks again.

will be back with less tricky stuff no doubt

regards,
Gerben
HouseCrow is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Today, 04:15   #8
MacNara
Registered User
 
MacNara's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Nara, Japan
Posts: 2,395
The paper by Leader and Carey that Grahame posted was very interesting. Like House Crow, I had not been aware of the Zappey's split, or at least not paid attention to it.

Here are a couple of comments to what has been posted after looking at this paper - NB I'm not trying to add any personal expertise, just giving my take on what others have said to calrify the issues for myself and others like me who may be interested.

This paper makes the case that there are three groups of birds to consider for Cyanoptila cyanomelana, rather than the two which have been generally recognised.

At the moment, in books that I have and that are likely to be on the shelves of others reading this thread, there is the nominate, breeding in Japan and Kuriles and maybe some coastal continental locations, and then a ssp C. c. cumatilis which breeds in continental locations to far into central China. This is the breakdown in Mark Brazil's book 'Birds of East Asia' (with the added problem that as his book doesn't cover the area, he doesn't mention central China at all).

Leader and Carey argue (and illustrate clearly in my opinion) that the central Chinese population is very different morphologially and in colour from both the Japanese island breeding population and from the continental coastal breeding population, and that the latter two are subspecies of the same species, but that the central Chinese population should be split as a separate species (which is not only morphologically distinct, but geographically disjunct).

L&C propose bringing back a former ssp title for the coastal continental birds of intermedia, and restricting cumatilis to the central Chinese population. They would then separate off cumatilis as Zappey's Flycatcher. (Of course, then the ssp name intermedia would be a bit problematic, as the birds between which this is supposed to be intermediate are no longer the same species.)

Handbook of Birds of the World has adopted this split and re-instated intermedia.

The Japanese name for cumatilis has been 'Chōsen Oruri' where Oruri is Blue-and White Flycatcher, and Chōsen means 'Korean'. Chōsen is often used in Japan to indicate a continental ssp or sp closely related to a Japanese bird. I cannot point to a source, but I strongly suspect that any Japanese records for 'Zappey's' are in fact for the intermedia, and not for the central Chinese birds at all.

I have only one Japanese book (in Japanese from 2016) which mentions Zappey's and it states that 'recently Chōsen Oruri has been renamed as Zappey's Flycatcher'; the illustration this book gives of this latter seems clearly to be of intermedia, and it states that there is one record from Kuroshima off the coast of southern Kyushu, and 'a few other records from Hegura, Tobishima and elsewhere' which are 'thought to be' this ssp. (The male of nominate and intermedia are surely very difficult to tell apart in the field on view alone, and the female impossible.)

The 2013 edition (Japanese) of Maki's generally respected Photographic Guide (Japan's Wild Birds 650) doesn't mention any ssp at all (i.e. no cumatilis, let alone intermedia), even though B&W Flycatcher is the main bird on the front cover of the book, but the distribution map also doesn't indicate any presence in central China.

The bird in Brazil's Birds of East Asia illustrated and described as cumatilis is clearly L&C's intermedia. As noted L&C's cumatilis would fall outside the range of Brazil's book.)

In short, I think that the likelihood of Zappey's in Japan, in the restricted sense of L&C and of HBW is very low even in Hegurajima; indeed it's probably never been seen. But I can't point to any source to confirm this, so I might be wrong.

After writing the above, I remembered a post on Neil Davidson's Japanese birding blog about a possible intermedia on Hegurajima in 2014. If I'd remembered it earlier, perhaps I would have just given the link, without writing my post, but having gone to the trouble, I'll leave my stuff up, as I think it's correct anyway.
__________________
Animals, birds, people: http://kenyaview.earthworldview.com
MacNara is online now  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Today, 08:35   #9
HouseCrow
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: netherlands
Posts: 194
There are a few mentions of cumatilis in Japan. I found not much more than this (https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article...2_309/_article) but it should be enough to confirm the idea that it's not 100% safe to say that my bird is not female cumatilis...especially in spring on Hegurajima.
If there's an autumn record of a juvenile male, a spring record of a 2nd cy cumatilis (on its way back to the breeding ground) should be possible too.

Of course: chances are small...


cheers
Gerben
HouseCrow is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Today, 09:18   #10
MacNara
Registered User
 
MacNara's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Nara, Japan
Posts: 2,395
Quote:
Originally Posted by HouseCrow View Post
There are a few mentions of cumatilis in Japan. I found not much more than this (https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article...2_309/_article) but it should be enough to confirm the idea that it's not 100% safe to say that my bird is not female cumatilis...especially in spring on Hegurajima.
If there's an autumn record of a juvenile male, a spring record of a 2nd cy cumatilis (on its way back to the breeding ground) should be possible too.

Of course: chances are small...cheers

Gerben
Hi Gerben. I think you missed the point of my post.

The paper you cite is from 2003, before L&C proposed the three-way split in 2013. This 2003 paper describes the bird mentioned, as I said, in one Japanese book I have from 2016 from the island of Kuroshima.

At that time, cumatilis referred to all continental birds which vary a little from those breeding in Japan, as well as the central Chinese birds which look quite a lot different from both the Japanese and the coastal continental birds.

But if you accept L&C's proposed three-way split, then cumatilis now refers only to these birds from central China which seem to look a lot different from both the birds that breed in Japan and the more coastal continental birds. Not only that, but Cyanoptila cumatilis is now a species and not a subspecies of Cyanoptila cyanomelana. It is this new species which is called (by those who accept the split) Zappey's Flycatcher.

And the Japanese breeding birds are Cyanoptila cyanomelana cyanomelana, while the continental breeding birds would be Cyanoptila cyanomelana intermedia. (Some Cyanoptila cyanomelana cyanomelana also breed near the continental coast, it seems, but not vice versa.)

The 2003 paper (download the pdf and look at the photos) clearly shows intermedia (not Zappey's). Indeed the photos of continental birds this paper uses for comparison to clinch the ID are from Liaoning, which is coastal China near Korea.The 2016 book I referred to suggests that this is the only absolutely definite record of intermedia in Japan, with a few others claimed (but not necessarily certain) from some other offshore islands, including Hegurajima.

My point was that your bird was extraordinarily unlikely to be cumatilis in the new sense (i.e. Zappey's). And also that it was very unlikely (but not impossible) to be intermedia (part of cumatilis in the old sense), since even this ssp has only been claimed a handful of times. It could be, but unless you or someone else can point to some conclusive features which show this, then the assumption is that it is the local nominate form.

As I said in the earlier post, part of my aim was to clarify things for myself because I didn't understand Grahame's original reply about Blue-and-White/Zappey's. He later says, "Zappey's is an accidental to Japan (?4 records, presumably all males)" but I think he is wrong here, and that there have been only this number of records of intermedia claimed, and no Zappey's at all.

But I am completely open to correction by someone more knowledgeable about this recent split and its occurence.
__________________
Animals, birds, people: http://kenyaview.earthworldview.com
MacNara is online now  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Today, 09:34   #11
HouseCrow
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: netherlands
Posts: 194
Ok I didn't realise the article predates the Zappey's-article...sorry about that.
I should have written 'cumatilis' as i meant to refer to the type (not species or subspecies).

I understand what you are saying. occurrence of C.c. intermediate is possible not likely,
whereas a Japanese record of C. cumatilis would be very much unlikely.

There appears to be little knowledge of C.cumatilis vagrancy pattern. I guess usually short-distance migrants would be less likely to stray to Japan on their path to or from Malaysia or Thailand.

The occasional record of extreme rarities in unlikely places does not warrant an ID of my bird as Cyanoptila spec.

HBW has one record of a singing male in far-eastern Russia...but also states there's a not specified record for Japan.

Last edited by HouseCrow : Today at 10:10.
HouseCrow is online now  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Leaf Warbler | Hegurajima, Japan | may HouseCrow Bird Identification Q&A 6 Friday 11th January 2019 13:13
female Narcissus Flycatcher or Blue-and-white Flycatcher, China xuky.summer Bird Identification Q&A 3 Saturday 23rd May 2015 17:18
New Video: Mugimaki flycatcher, Robin flycatcher (added by rich_a) BirdForum TV BirdForum TV Discussion 1 Thursday 4th December 2014 23:42
Difference among Red breasted Flycatcher, Red Throated flycatcher and Taiga Flycatch saad mahmood Bird Identification Q&A 3 Saturday 19th April 2014 20:31
info on birding Hegurajima Island, Noto, West Japan HouseCrow Birds & Birding 2 Tuesday 15th April 2008 14:44



Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.14641905 seconds with 23 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 10:10.