Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Zeiss - Always on the lookout for something special – Shop now

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Three contradictory statements in some various books and articles

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 1 votes, 5.00 average.
Old Wednesday 16th April 2014, 16:23   #1
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,871
Three contradictory statements in some various books and articles

Just to be on "the safe side" …

As far as I understand there is little doubt that the (Scientific respective Common name of the) two species:
● Slaty-breasted Tinamou Crypturellus (erythropus) boucardi SCLATER 1859/1860 (ex Sallé MS) a k a "Boucard Tinamou " or "Boucard's Tinamou"
● Boucard's Wren Campylorhynchus jocosus SCLATER 1860 a k a "Boucard’s Cactus-wren"
… both commemorate the French ornithologist, natural history dealer, traveler and collector Adolphe Boucard (1839– … but when did he die? 1904 or 1905?

And what about:
● Blue-capped Kingfisher (Halcyon) Actenoides hombroni BONAPARTE 1850 a k a "Hombron's Wood-Kingfisher" or "Hombron’s Kingfisher"
… that commemorate the French Naval surgeon, naturalist and collector Jacques Bernard Hombron – but here the years vary from either (1798-1852) or (1800-1853)?

And, the third little question-mark:
● Red-chested Flowerpecker Dicaeum maugei LESSON 1830 a k a "Blue cheeked Flowerpecker", "Lesser Sunda Flowerpecker" or "Timor Flowerpecker" [discovered on Timor, Indonesia, present on several Indonesian Islands, in various subspecies]
… commemorating, according to some; the French zoologist "René Maugé de Cely (d.1802)" or "René Maugé [de Cely] (?–1802)" although other claim "… René Mauger , mort en mer le 21 février 1802)". It ought be, it must be, the same person, don´t you think … or? And if so (or not!), what´s his proper name … for sure? And when was he born?

Anyone of you guys "out there" know the truth?

On either one?

Last edited by Calalp : Wednesday 16th April 2014 at 16:29.
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 16th April 2014, 19:41   #2
JustinJansen
Registered User
 
JustinJansen's Avatar

 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Grave, The Netherlands
Posts: 426
René Maugé de Cely died at Maria Island while at the Baudin expedition. Don't know the year he was born. This bird was collected by Mauge by the way, and is in MNHN.
__________________
Justin Jansen
The Netherlands
JustinJansen is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 16th April 2014, 21:47   #3
Paul Clapham
Registered User
 
Paul Clapham's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 275
The French Wikipedia has an article headed "René Maugé de Cely" which says he was born in 1761.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%...%C3%A9_de_Cely

It also claims that Lesson named Dicaeum maugei after him.

The French Wikipedia article headed "Adolphe Boucard" claims that he died on 15 March, 1905.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolphe_Boucard

And the article headed "Jacques Bernard Hombron" claims his dates were 1798-1852; however the article is only a stub.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Bernard_Hombron
__________________
Life list:
2015 (Clements v2018 -- 19.0% of 10585); 2003 (Howard & Moore 4.1 -- 19.7% of 10175)
2038 (IOC 9.1 -- 18.7% of 10896)
2021 (HBW (Dec 2018 snapshot) -- 18.4% of 10967); 2021 (BLI Version 3 -- 18.2% of 11126)
Paul Clapham is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 17th April 2014, 08:30   #4
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Clapham View Post
The French Wikipedia has an article headed "René Maugé de Cely" which says he was born in 1761.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%...%C3%A9_de_Cely
Thanks for trying, Paul,
But the French Wiki-page of "René Maugé de Cely" says he was born "Né v. 1761" (v. = vers =about).

And Wikipedia is Wikipedia where whomever can write whatever they feel like ...

I was looking, hoping for some more trustworthy sources.
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 17th April 2014, 09:01   #5
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,871
Post

Attached is Lesson's own spelling, regarding the Flowerpecker Dicaeum maugei ...

... which, I think, exclude the "Mauger" suggestion, in some older sources.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Lesson 1831.jpg
Views:	23
Size:	25.3 KB
ID:	492235  

Last edited by Calalp : Thursday 17th April 2014 at 09:13. Reason: typo
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 17th April 2014, 09:28   #6
James Jobling
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 627
H. M. Whittell, 1954, The Literature of Australian Birds, includes the following;
"Adolphe Boucard ...Born in France in 1839 ...He died at Hampstead, near London, on March 15, 1905."
"Jacques Bernard Hombron (1800-1853)...Born in Paris, France, April 4, 1800"
"René Maugé de Cely ...Maugé died on board the corvette Géographe, when off the coast of Tasmania on February 20, 1802, and was buried on Maria Island."
James Jobling is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 17th April 2014, 14:28   #7
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,871
Mr. Maugé ...

I now wonder if "René Maugé de Cely" simply was "René Maugé" de Cely (meaning he was born/from Cely (Cély-en-Bière), in the French Departement Seine-et-Marne?

Most sources claim he died 21 February 1802, but that´s a minor thing at this point. It could just be an ever-repeated error. 20th or 21st ... February and 1802 seem to be the month and year. For example see this link from Sydney University or this one: Voyage de découvertes aux terres Australes

Some sources are quite presice: "At 11pm on February 20, 1802, René Maugé died of 'a bloody flux', dysentery."

There is apparently still, today, a "Point Maugé" where he was burried on the Southern Maria Island (or l'île Maria, close to the East coast of Tasmania ... not on/to Timor, as some sources claim) and others "... at the age of 42".

Last edited by Calalp : Thursday 17th April 2014 at 14:43.
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 17th April 2014, 14:37   #8
JustinJansen
Registered User
 
JustinJansen's Avatar

 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Grave, The Netherlands
Posts: 426
It was René Maugé de Cely as far as I extracted. But only Maugé was used at his specimens that are present in multiply collections in the world.
__________________
Justin Jansen
The Netherlands
JustinJansen is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 17th April 2014, 14:51   #9
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,871
Mr. Hombron ... ?

Link Hombron, Jacques Bernard (1800-1852)?

Last edited by Calalp : Thursday 17th April 2014 at 15:30. Reason: Link fix
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 17th April 2014, 15:01   #10
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,871
Mr. Boucard ...?

According to the Condor ... ?

PS. According to The Auk

Last edited by Calalp : Thursday 17th April 2014 at 15:47. Reason: PS.
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 17th April 2014, 21:26   #11
Paul Clapham
Registered User
 
Paul Clapham's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 275
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calalp View Post
And Wikipedia is Wikipedia where whomever can write whatever they feel like ...

I was looking, hoping for some more trustworthy sources.
Like the other sources you already found which disagree with each other? I wouldn't put down Wikipedia so readily. Remember the study from a year or two ago which found that the online Encyclopedia Britannica was just as error-prone as Wikipedia.
__________________
Life list:
2015 (Clements v2018 -- 19.0% of 10585); 2003 (Howard & Moore 4.1 -- 19.7% of 10175)
2038 (IOC 9.1 -- 18.7% of 10896)
2021 (HBW (Dec 2018 snapshot) -- 18.4% of 10967); 2021 (BLI Version 3 -- 18.2% of 11126)
Paul Clapham is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 19th April 2014, 12:28   #12
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,871
Paul, well spoken!

Your´e quite right. Sorry if I stepped on your toes. Some Wikipedia pages are very thorough and well worth trusting!

The thing is I´m used to the Swedish Wikipedia, where many, just to many, entries regarding ornithology (and ornithologists) are based on an old, very out-dated, Encyclopedia from 1918. And on various people, trying to "fix it" ...

And that´s the whole problem. New as well as old, more or less reliable sources, quoting each other, translated from languages to languages, with various ways of transcription, with or without references, to what, in the end, all turn out very fuzzy.

I´m just trying to get it as right as I can ... even if I (that I have to admit) sometimes has to assume and speculate.
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 19th April 2014, 21:49   #13
Melanie
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Kassel, Germany
Posts: 2,686
Here is also state that Mauge died at age 42

http://books.google.de/books?id=alyq...201802&f=false

If this age is correct, 1761 as birth date would be incorrect.

Last edited by Melanie : Saturday 19th April 2014 at 21:52.
Melanie is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 20th April 2014, 03:41   #14
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,871
More on René Maugé …

Also see this link: Voyage de découvertes aux terres australes ...

Or this link; Pierre Bernard Milius: last commander of the Baudin Expedition (during which Maugé died):

Or this link to his grave inscription: "Here lies Citizen René Maugé, zoologist on the expedition …" (without the Cely part).

Or the PHD-Thesis Constructing the "Perfect Voyage by Nicole Starbuck 2009.

His full name could have been Pierre René Maugé, but I haven´t gotten any wiser regarding his dates (he died round 20-22 February 1802 … by some claimed at the age of 42 ... or by others as born circa 1761.

PS. Here´s another link that might help us narrowing down the Birth of René Maugé; La Reconnaissance française: L'expédition Baudin en Australie (1801-1803) (p.49)

Last edited by Calalp : Sunday 20th April 2014 at 11:52. Reason: PS.
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 20th April 2014, 18:22   #15
Paul Clapham
Registered User
 
Paul Clapham's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 275
I saw that last one, but it appears to refer to an earlier voyage: "Pour le voyage à Trinidad, le Muséum recommande René Maugé...".

By the way there's an English-language version of that book, but Google Books is much less open about its contents.
__________________
Life list:
2015 (Clements v2018 -- 19.0% of 10585); 2003 (Howard & Moore 4.1 -- 19.7% of 10175)
2038 (IOC 9.1 -- 18.7% of 10896)
2021 (HBW (Dec 2018 snapshot) -- 18.4% of 10967); 2021 (BLI Version 3 -- 18.2% of 11126)
Paul Clapham is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 21st April 2014, 13:29   #16
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Clapham View Post
I saw that last one, but it appears to refer to an earlier voyage: "Pour le voyage à Trinidad, le Muséum recommande René Maugé...".
Yes, Paul, I know, I only suggested that we by finding out when that phrase "Pour le voyage à Trinidad, le Muséum recommande René Maugé, 39 ans, ..." was written, that we might be able to trace down the birth year of Mr. Maugé? At least a little bit further ...

But that recquires knowledge of French far out of my league.
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 21st April 2014, 15:48   #17
nartreb
Speak softly and carry a long lens
 
nartreb's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 1,243
The Trinidad expedition left France in September 1796. Planning for that expedition began in March 1796. So Mauge' was born in 1757 if Horner's book is correct that he was 39 at the time he was selected. The book was published in 1987, in Melbourne, in English; the French edition appeared in 2006.)

The English edition is hard to search online but I was able to verify that Mauge's age is the same in that edition.
__________________
My bird photos
nartreb is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 21st April 2014, 18:18   #18
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,871
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinJansen View Post
René Maugé de Cely died at Maria Island while at the Baudin expedition. Don't know the year he was born. This bird was collected by Mauge by the way, and is in MNHN.
Justin, do you by any chance know exactly where and when Maugé collected it? Is it The Type? Does the label tell you/us anything?

Could be fun to mention, maybe worth a line or two ...
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 21st April 2014, 20:06   #19
JustinJansen
Registered User
 
JustinJansen's Avatar

 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Grave, The Netherlands
Posts: 426
Bjorn, it will be published in due course, I'm working on a PhD Thesis on the Baudin expedition (the 1800-1804 one). It was collected in 1802 near Kupang, Timor by Mauge himself.
__________________
Justin Jansen
The Netherlands
JustinJansen is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 21st April 2014, 20:49   #20
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,871
Justin,
Are you sure!? Timor in 1802. It´s a long way from offcoast Maria Island, East of Tasmania where Mr. Maugé supposedly passed away in February 1802?

I thought the Baudin Voyage left Timor in 1801?

But you ought to know, writing a PhD-thesis on the subject ...

PS. "Savu, Samau, Timor"

Last edited by Calalp : Monday 21st April 2014 at 20:50. Reason: PS.
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 21st April 2014, 23:05   #21
Paul Clapham
Registered User
 
Paul Clapham's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 275
I don't know if you have seen this page yet: http://sydney.edu.au/arts/research/b..._members.shtml

The "René Maugé" link tells you where he was born (explaining the "de Cely" title) and mentions more information (also in French, sorry) in a 2004 issue of the Australian Journal of French Studies.

I notice that the page mentions that "nobiliary particles" (i.e. de Cely) were suppressed during the revolutionary period, which would be why you don't see them mentioned in Baudin's work.
__________________
Life list:
2015 (Clements v2018 -- 19.0% of 10585); 2003 (Howard & Moore 4.1 -- 19.7% of 10175)
2038 (IOC 9.1 -- 18.7% of 10896)
2021 (HBW (Dec 2018 snapshot) -- 18.4% of 10967); 2021 (BLI Version 3 -- 18.2% of 11126)
Paul Clapham is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 22nd April 2014, 09:01   #22
JustinJansen
Registered User
 
JustinJansen's Avatar

 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Grave, The Netherlands
Posts: 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calalp View Post
Justin,
Are you sure!? Timor in 1802. It´s a long way from offcoast Maria Island, East of Tasmania where Mr. Maugé supposedly passed away in February 1802?

I thought the Baudin Voyage left Timor in 1801?

But you ought to know, writing a PhD-thesis on the subject ...

PS. "Savu, Samau, Timor"
You are right collected between between 21 September and 13 November 1801 (now I have access to my data).
__________________
Justin Jansen
The Netherlands
JustinJansen is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 23rd April 2014, 09:16   #23
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,871
Thumbs up Thanks guys!

Justin, that makes more sense! I will go for something like "… maugei was collected by René Maugé personally on Timor, in the vicinity of the town Kupang (Kota Kupang Southwest Timor), in the Autumn of 1801 … a few/some months later, he …". Is that correct, or?

"Nartreb" and Paul, Great findings those facts! Even if it sure didn´t make the case any easier.

This explains why there´s so many contradicting claims connected to the age alt. birth of René Maugé! (vers, circa or not)

He was 39 when he signed up, in 1796, for the "Trinidad" expedition (1796-1798) together with Baudin …

… and he was 42 years old when he left the port Le Havre, France (19 Oktober 1800) to participate, as zoologist on the ship Geográphe of (not when he died 1802, during) Baudin's ("own") South Sea Voyage/Expedition (1800-1804).

That´s where I think most of all those various writers have gone astray …

That would mean that René Maugé (de Cely = from Cély-en-Bière, in Seine-et-Marne, North Central France. I still don’t think it ever was a "nobiliary particle"!?) would have been born in either 1857 or 1858, doesn’t it?

And that he died (of dysentery, also picked up on Timor) onboard the Corvette/Ship Geográphe (at 11. pm = 23.00, at night) on the 20th February 1802, and was burried the next morning. Why some claim that he died on the "22nd" I do not understand …?

Anyone think otherwise?
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 26th April 2014, 11:40   #24
Calalp
Björn Bergenholtz
 
Calalp's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 2,871
Thanks everybody!

Ok, I think it´s about time to close this thread …

I´ll have to settle with not knowing the full story of all three …. but I can live with that:

● Slaty-breasted Tinamou Crypturellus (erythropus) boucardi SCLATER 1859/1860 (ex Sallé MS) a k a "Boucard Tinamou " or "Boucard's Tinamou"
● Boucard's Wren Campylorhynchus jocosus SCLATER 1860 a k a "Boucard’s Cactus-wren"
=Adolphe Boucard (1839–1905) = CHECK!
He was the most "important" figure, at least in my view, since he is the only one of those three commemorated in a modern "official" Swedish Bird name. The other two are "out-dated" today, by newer Swedish names, more easy to trace.
--------------------------------

The others I will leave as:
● Red-chested Flowerpecker Dicaeum maugei LESSON 1830 a k a "Blue cheeked Flowerpecker", "Lesser Sunda Flowerpecker" or "Timor Flowerpecker"
= René Maugé (–1802) … as earlier this thread.

● Blue-capped Kingfisher (Halcyon) Actenoides hombroni BONAPARTE 1850 a k a "Hombron's Wood-Kingfisher" or "Hombron’s Kingfisher"
... and what about Jacques Bernard Hombron? He is present in several books, articles, and (of course) all over the internet … either with the years (1798-1852) or (1800-1853) or in any thinkable combination of the same numbers!? Surely it must be possible (if you know French) to find out the truth of a Naturalist and Naval surgeon that participated in such well-documented and praised voyages as the ones of Astrolabe and Zélée, under the Command of Jules Dumont d'Urville?

But ok, the latter is of minor importance (for me, that is) and I will leave it here.

If anyone will keep on searching for those men: I wish you the best of luck!

Boucard, Maugé & Hombron … over and out!
Calalp is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 28th April 2014, 23:55   #25
Paul Clapham
Registered User
 
Paul Clapham's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 275
I know you're satisified with what you know so far about René Maugé, but I was thinking, not everything is on the Internet. So I went up to my university library and had a look at the article from the Australian Journal of French Studies about the scientists of the Baudin voyage.

There was about one page discussing Maugé, but the key sentence from your point of view was this: "On a peu d'informations sur lui". (There is little information about him.)

So yeah, over and out René Maugé.
__________________
Life list:
2015 (Clements v2018 -- 19.0% of 10585); 2003 (Howard & Moore 4.1 -- 19.7% of 10175)
2038 (IOC 9.1 -- 18.7% of 10896)
2021 (HBW (Dec 2018 snapshot) -- 18.4% of 10967); 2021 (BLI Version 3 -- 18.2% of 11126)
Paul Clapham is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Two articles with the same photo jocateme Opus Discussion Area 2 Tuesday 3rd July 2007 03:22
Country articles jocateme Opus Discussion Area 5 Sunday 3rd June 2007 01:14
Intersting articles......... El Annie Birds & Birding 3 Thursday 10th October 2002 16:01



Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.24694800 seconds with 38 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 12:08.