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Three contradictory statements in some various books and articles

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Old Tuesday 29th April 2014, 08:55   #26
Calalp
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Thumbs up Great try, Paul!

Like you noticed, yes, I´m pleased (or at least I´m telling myself I´m content, enough) with what I´ve got ... even if I guess it could be, might be possible to go a tiny, tiny bit further.

But time is a matter, and there is soo many more eponyms and etymologies to solve.

I don´t think there are any major parts left to find, regarding the life of Mr. Maugé ... but many thanks for trying!

PS. I guess you mean: Jangoux, M. 2004. “Les zoologistes et botanistes qui accompagnèrent le capitaine Baudin aux Terres australes”. The Baudin Expedition 1800-1804, special number of the; Australian Journal of French Studies 41 (2): 55-78. Or?

Last edited by Calalp : Tuesday 29th April 2014 at 09:00. Reason: PS.
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Old Wednesday 30th April 2014, 05:26   #27
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Yes, that's the article I was referring to.
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Old Saturday 2nd February 2019, 07:47   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinJansen View Post
Bjorn, it will be published in due course, I'm working on a PhD Thesis on the Baudin expedition (the 1800-1804 one). ....
Type: Doctoral Thesis
Title: The ornithology of the Baudin expedition (1800-1804)
Author: Jansen, Justin J.F.J.
Date: 2018-05-22

Quote:
Abstract: The expedition commanded by Nicolas Baudin to Tenerife, Mauritius, Australia, Timor and South Africa in 1800-1804 is fully researched in regard to ornithology. The expedition was government-funded and scientific equipped and had as one of the core activities collecting natural history items. Despite the lack of any diaries or lists documenting the collected birds, no less then 56 % of the 1.055 bird-specimens collected could be identified on species level. Of those which survived, 389 specimens (36,8 %) still exist in European Museums. Not only in Paris but also in 25 other museum collections worldwide as in 23 private collections specimens ended up. These 389 specimens represent the largest intact collections in time from Australia, Mauritius and Timor. For Australia and Timor only to be surpassed (nearly) three decades later. The Baudin expedition became the most successful expedition in regard to ornithology executed up to 1804. Further the research showed the importance of the 1796-98 voyage into the Caribbean, the role of donors, taxidermy in those years and the importance of notes still present in archives in Europe. With the right data now in place, many gaps in knowledge can be filled (type localities, systematics, reconstruction of long-gone landscapes, etc.).
As of here. Accessible in parts, full text: "Under embargo until 2019-05-22"

Justin, congratulations to a Work well done!

After only having had a look at "Appendix 1: Non- Passerines" I´m sure looking forward to the full Thesis. That part alone covers 251 pages (pp.236-586), fully illustrated ... wow!

I´m impressed.

Björn
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Old Sunday 3rd February 2019, 11:38   #29
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Some additional info from Justin Jansen's Doctoral Thesis (2018), Appendix 3 (Bibliography of prime collectors, occasional collectors and donors of birds, pp.615-628, link in post #28), that might have some influence on (alt. contradictory claims for) a few entries in the HBW Alive Key, concerning the following eponyms:


bougainvillii / bougainvilliorum as in:
● Guanay Cormorant alt. ditto Shag (Phalacrocorax) Leucocarbo "bougainvillii" LESSON 1837 (here) as "Carbo Bougainvillii" a k a (P.) L. bougainvilliorum (Dickinson & Remsen 2013).
... the full name of the Baron/"Son" was apparently even longer (!): Hyacinthe Hypolite Yves Philippe Potentien de Bougainville (1781–1846) ... (p.618)


freycinet / freycineti as in:
● Dusky Scrubfowl Megapodius freycinet GAIMARD 1823 (here)
● the extinct Guam Flycatcher Myiagra freycineti OUSTALET 1881 (here)
● the invalid [Anas (boschas) ... ] "a. freycineti" BONAPARTE 1856 (here) , no explanation, nothing, just a List... (Richmond Card, here; "Nomen dudum!")
= the French Navy Captain Louis-Claude de Saulces de Freycinet (17791841) ... (p.621):
Quote:
(07-08-1779, Montélimar, France; 21-03-1841, Rochefort, France) (OC), was sub-lieutenant of Le Naturaliste. He was born as the son of ...
Also husband of the wife commemorated in Pinon's Imperial-pigeon Ducula pinon QUOY & GAIMARD 1824. Earlier dealt with in my thread Some additional etymological information – Part II (here, No. 9)


macei as in:
● Large Cuckooshrike Coracina macei LESSON 1831 (here) as "Graucalus Macei"
● Fulvous-breasted Woodpecker Dendrocopos macei VIEILLOT 1818 (here) as "Picus Macei"
● the invalid "I. [Ibis] macei" WAGLER 1827 (here) [syn. Threskiornis melanocephalus]
= the French surgeon-naturalist Jean Macé (fl. 1803): "(<1765 - > 1803) ..." ... (p. 624)

Most likely also commemorated in the following names (not listed in today's Key!):
● "Turdus macei" VIEILLOT 1818 (here)
● "Falco macei, Cuv.", ex TEMMINCK 1820 (here + Plate 8, here and Plate 223, here) a k a "Mace's Eagle" Haliaetus macei
● "Columba maceï L." ? (as of here, listed by Nieuwenhuisen & von Rosenberg, 1863), also mentioned by Büttikofer (1896), here, last page. (No such Linnaean bird name is known to me!).


maugei as in:
● Red-chested Flowerpecker Dicaeum maugei LESSON 1830 (here) as "Dicæum Maugei"
● the debated (recent split) Puerto Rican Parakeet (species alt./or subspecies) Psittacara (chloropterus) maugei SOUANCE 1856 (here) as "Psittacara Maugei"
● as well as in the invalid "Strix maugei" TEMMINCK 1821 (Unseen by me, Richmond card here) ... a synonym of Ninox boobook fusca?
● ... and in the Key's many similar names; "maugaeus / maugeanus / maugens / maugerii / maugeris / maugeus" ... (all unchecked by me)
= the French zoologist René Maugé (17571802), ... without the "de Cely" part ... simply born in "(1757, Cély-en Bière, France" ... and died "21-02-1802, off Maria Island, Australia)" ... (pp. 624-625).

Earlier dealt with in this thread (see Posts #1-8, 14-24) ... where we didn´t get any further than Maugé being born in either 1757 or -58. I sure wonder what made it possible to pinpoint his birth?

-----------

Well, that's all I noted. Any other details or questions (alt. doubts?) I´m pretty sure Justin can answer himself. He´s been more than helpful earlier on!

However; enjoy!

Björn
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Last edited by Calalp : Sunday 3rd February 2019 at 16:52. Reason: Falco macei & Columba macei-links
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Old Sunday 3rd February 2019, 14:57   #30
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Thanks Björn
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Old Sunday 3rd February 2019, 16:24   #31
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Björn, thanks for the new macei taxa. I have found homes for Turdus macei and Falco macei (see Key), but not yet Columba macei.
I am still confused by the given names of the young Bougainville -- Florentine, Potentieu, Potentien, Hypolite....

Last edited by James Jobling : Sunday 3rd February 2019 at 22:54. Reason: Bougainvillea
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Old Monday 4th February 2019, 11:05   #32
Calalp
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You´re welcome, James!

Note (easy to miss) that the latter macei bird was written Columba maceï (with diacritic double-dots at the end) in the list by Nieuwenhuisen & von Rosenberg (1863), similar to how "Picus Maceï" a k a "Le Pic de Macé", was listed by Dr van Lidth de Jeude (in 1858), here, somewhat indicating the Pigeon/Dove was aimed the same way, named after the same Monsieur Macé. If relevant?

To my surprise (after some further Googling); apparently there was also a "Tringa Macei"!?! At least it´s listed as such, in 1835; here (on p.122). But I assume that´s only an in-between version of Wagler's "Ibis"/Threskiornis bird (simply as it´s the only one somewhat similar to a wader/shorebird). Or not?

Regarding; bougainvillii / bougainvilliorum. The true full name of Bougainville junior is unknown to me. I just happened to note what Justin claimed in his Thesis, and pointed out the differences. Junior is not "one of my guys". The only Bougainville in my MS is Bougainville Island ... (which, in its turn, was named after his father), but that's a whole different (Common name) thing.

Cheers!

Björn
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Old Monday 4th February 2019, 16:54   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Jobling View Post
Björn, thanks for the new macei taxa. I have found homes for Turdus macei and Falco macei (see Key), but not yet Columba macei.
I am still confused by the given names of the young Bougainville -- Florentine, Potentieu, Potentien, Hypolite....
Think Potentien is the correct one, and I forgot to include the e in the name.
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Old Monday 4th February 2019, 19:18   #34
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Columba macei and Tringa macei. If they exist at all, I think Columba macei may be a Treron; and I don't think even the older authors could have confused a dainty sandpiper Tringa with a stonking great ibis Threskiornis - or could they? The search continues.
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Old Monday 4th February 2019, 22:45   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calalp View Post
To my surprise (after some further Googling); apparently there was also a "Tringa Macei"!?! At least it´s listed as such, in 1835; here (on p.122). But I assume that´s only an in-between version of Wagler's "Ibis"/Threskiornis bird (simply as it´s the only one somewhat similar to a wader/shorebird). Or not?
This is an index to The Animal Kingdom, Edward Griffith's English adaptation of Cuvier's Règne Animal. It says "viii, 378", which is this: https://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/33170244

The name stands there in a footnote, which appears associated to the text of Tringa rufescens (= Buff-breasted Sandpiper) but that, oddly, is indeed quite clearly about ibises. It cites Wagler; the species cited are falcinellus, religiosa, macei, rubra and alba; there is no complete generic name in the footnote; only the intial 'T.' which, given the species, might quite easily stand for Tantalus, rather than for Tringa...
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Old Monday 4th February 2019, 23:11   #36
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Good explanation Laurent. It is a long shot but Wallace described a bird "a fine and very handsome fruit-pigeon, Carpophaga concinna, which feeds upon the- nutmegs, or rather on the mace." Called Mace-eating Pigeo in a 1907 Zoologist. Now in Ducula; Elegant Imperial-Pigeon. Perhaps the source of Columba macei??
Unlikely what would be the purpose of the 'i'? Also the name would be the new latin for "mace eating"
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Old Tuesday 5th February 2019, 09:57   #37
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Well done guys!

Laurent's proposed explanation of the unexpected Buff-breasted Sandpiper off-spring; "Tringa Macei", most likely intended for the Tantalus (Mycteria)/Ibis/Threskiornis bird ... make sense to me.

Regarding Mark's suggested explanation of macei, in "Columba maceï" ... wow! As in mace/nutmeg? In the sence "Columba maceiorum"... ?!? If such a construction/allusion/latinization is possible, why not?

Either way; a full view of The Zoologist : a monthly journal of natural history (with the Carpophaga concinna "Mace-eating Pigeon"), of 1907, here ... with references back to; here and here, the latter taking us here (but to p.187). If still relevant?

And; that is, of course; if that´s the Pigeon/Dove Nieuwenhuisen & von Rosenberg was thinking of in 1863. Could be. Or not.

I gladly leave them all in your more capable hands.

Cheers!

/B
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Old Tuesday 5th February 2019, 13:27   #38
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I agree that "Tringa" macei = syn. Threskiornis melanocephalus (as originally listed in the Key).
The "Mace-eating Pigeon" has nothing to do with Columba macei. The former (Ducula concinna) occurs in Wallacea (the Moluccas, etc.), whereas Columba macei (if identifiable at all) occurs on Nias, off western Sumatra. According to van Marle & Voous 1988, The Birds of Sumatra, pp. 100-106, only the following pigeons have occured on that island: Treron curvirostra, T. fulvicollis, T. vernans, Ptilinopus jambu, Ducula aenea, D. bicolor, D. badia, Macropygia phasianella, Chalcophaps indica, and Caloenas nicobarica.
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Old Saturday 9th February 2019, 08:47   #39
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Quick return to Monsieur Macé (as in macei) ... and let us all forget about the "Mace-eating Pigeon" ... (even though it was a good try, Mark!)

Maybe worth considering, or not, regarding the synonym/s (?) of "Picus Macei", see here, telling us something like; "Picus Macei" VIEILLOT 1818 (OD in post #29, today's Fulvous-breasted Woodpecker Dendrocopos macei) versus "P. [Picus] Macei" listed by Wagler 1827 (here), that turned out to be today's Stripe-breasted Woodpecker Dendrocopos atratus BLYTH 1849 ... !?

To me (with meager understanding of Latin) it looks like Mr Wagler has some objections of the apparently defective description "(Descript. vitiosa.)" of Vieillot (as well on Temminck's). Which (at least to me) is quite understandable when dealing/comparing it with a different species!? Apparently (according to the former link) Hartlaub did the same mistake!

Either way; according to here; "Le naturaliste Macé" also collected a frog in Bengale (Bengal), but if we take one step back from this text, and return to the OD itself , where this frog originally was described (and depicted), as "GRENOUILLE TIGRÉE ... Rana tigerina" (here); the name of its collector was written "Massé"!?! Also written the same way on p.96 (here). Maybe that´s why Monsieur Macé is so hard to find? Or is/was the the frog collector (Mr Macé/Massé) a different guy all together?

However, ... that's it! I´m done with this guy. Tricky to search for (too many, far too many namesakes, both in the same Era, as well as earlier and later).

macei ... over and out (at least on my part)

Björn

PS. If anyone keen keep on digging: Good luck! I assume Justin, if no other, would love to know who he was. And James, of course.
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