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Northern Harrier

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Old Sunday 2nd October 2016, 08:49   #1
Nutcracker
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Northern Harrier

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Old Sunday 2nd October 2016, 09:04   #2
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Not a good idea to put the archaic, officially deprecated name "marsh hawk" right at the top - it isn't used at all now except by a tiny minority of very elderly non-birders: basically, anyone who hasn't bought a field guide in the last 50 years. And certainly not above Hen Harrier, which is in very widespread official use (and really ought to be split, why clements and H&M haven't is very odd). I'm going to be bold and remove "marsh hawk" altogether; if it is to be mentioned at all, it should be low down the page, near the end.

For comparison, 2nd edition (1987) of Nat. Geog. Field Guide says 'Formerly called Marsh Hawk' right at the end of the Northern Harrier, while 3rd ed. (1999) and Sibley don't mention it at all.
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Old Wednesday 26th October 2016, 20:50   #3
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Still waiting for a response on this one. Seems to me that as the page stands at the moment, adherence to an exact rigid page format is counting for too much; there should be a little more flexibility to suit circumstances.
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Old Wednesday 26th October 2016, 21:49   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutcracker View Post
Not a good idea to put the archaic, officially deprecated name "marsh hawk" right at the top - it isn't used at all now except by a tiny minority of very elderly non-birders: basically, anyone who hasn't bought a field guide in the last 50 years.
Bullsh*t. Still in wide use among non-elderly birders-- of whose number I am admittedly not one--in the areas I most often bird. Dto for Sparrow Hawk for kestrel. Anyway, why the animus against folk names?
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Old Sunday 30th October 2016, 15:37   #5
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Bullsh*t. Still in wide use among non-elderly birders-- of whose number I am admittedly not one--in the areas I most often bird. Dto for Sparrow Hawk for kestrel. Anyway, why the animus against folk names?
Because Marsh Harrier = Circus aeruginosus / Circus spilonotus and
Sparrowhawk = Accipiter nisus, but also any Accipiter that isn't a goshawk.
These are also long-established names, and arguably more widely used.
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Old Sunday 30th October 2016, 16:13   #6
Jos Stratford
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Originally Posted by Nutcracker View Post
And certainly not above Hen Harrier, which is in very widespread official use (and really ought to be split, why clements and H&M haven't is very odd). I'm going to be bold and remove "marsh hawk" altogether
I would have no problem in including Marsh Hawk as an alternative name, but if the Hen Harrier/Northern Harrier split is not accepted, then it absolutely should be titled as much.

I would support

Hen Harrier/Northern Harrier

Alternative name in the US: Marsh Hawk


This would go well with the text later which includes "Widespread in the Northern Hemisphere. The two subspecies Hen Harrier C. c. cyaneus and Northern Harrier C. c. hudsonius occupy the Old and the New Worlds respectively. "
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Old Sunday 30th October 2016, 16:18   #7
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Bullsh*t. Still in wide use among non-elderly birders-- of whose number I am admittedly not one--in the areas I most often bird.
Couldn't Hen Harrier be listed alongside in the title? Marsh Hawk may be an alternative in widespread use in the US, but Hen Harrier absolutely is the name for it in Europe?
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Old Sunday 30th October 2016, 17:17   #8
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. . .I would support

Hen Harrier/Northern Harrier

Alternative name in the US: Marsh Hawk. . .
So would I, for what my opinion's worth (I've never had much to do with Opus). Nutcracker & I often quarrel about bird names; I'm a fan of local and folk names and was reacting in my short-fused way to his dismissive tone.
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Old Sunday 30th October 2016, 19:10   #9
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Bullsh*t. Still in wide use among non-elderly birders-- of whose number I am admittedly not one--in the areas I most often bird. Dto for Sparrow Hawk for kestrel. Anyway, why the animus against folk names?
Hadn't realised it was still so much in use - I'd thought it was well dead, apart from the likes of the shooting community. Given that, I'm not so strongly against its mention, but still think it should be lower priority than the standard name for the nominate subspecies.

My animus against folk names - they're often misleading and confusing, so should not be promoted as having any 'official sanction' as a current correct name to be used, much as the way it was dropped in the 2 latest editions of the Nat Geog field guide. I don't see any reason why vernacular names for animals & plants shouldn't be treated with the same rigour as scientific names; one taxon, one name, with synonyms given only low visibility.
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Old Sunday 30th October 2016, 19:42   #10
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My animus against folk names - they're often misleading and confusing, so should not be promoted as having any 'official sanction' as a current correct name to be used, much as the way it was dropped in the 2 latest editions of the Nat Geog field guide. I don't see any reason why vernacular names for animals & plants shouldn't be treated with the same rigour as scientific names; one taxon, one name, with synonyms given only low visibility.
Find that a little confusing and contradictory - with a global population standardizing names is going to give 'new' or 'americanised' or 'european' names to some as a default ...
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Old Sunday 30th October 2016, 20:58   #11
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FWIW, I think folk names are great (and oftentimes more colourful than the dry official names) - but only if they're not leading to confusion with other species because of identical or very similar names.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman View Post
Find that a little confusing and contradictory - with a global population standardizing names is going to give 'new' or 'americanised' or 'european' names to some as a default ...
The alternative would be to always put both the BE and the AE names in the title (e.g.: Great Northern Diver (BE)/Common Loon (AE)), when and where they differ.
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Old Sunday 30th October 2016, 22:35   #12
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Originally Posted by Sangahyando View Post
FWIW, I think folk names are great (and oftentimes more colourful than the dry official names) - but only if they're not leading to confusion with other species because of identical or very similar names.

The alternative would be to always put both the BE and the AE names in the title (e.g.: Great Northern Diver (BE)/Common Loon (AE)), when and where they differ.
Well, we're starting to ride off in all directions at once here. A little "confusion" it seems to me is a small price to pay for the retention of folk names with their connections to local cultures and sometimes interesting and colorful origins. But, be that as it may, I certainly see no reason for national lists to draw on a single set of internationally standardized names. An international list, on the other hand, will (obviously) have to settle on a particular "official" name for each taxon. What these names should be can be argued on a case by case basis but shouldn't IMO supplant the traditional names on the national lists. With regard to Opus and similar publications, my view is that each taxon should have a single "official" name (decided upon who knows how ) supplemented by a prominently displayed list of alternative names, national and other.
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Old Thursday 3rd November 2016, 09:46   #13
Andy Hurley
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Opus editors use a standard format for ALL species. We also use specific sources for the data. I think that changing standard layout on a whim is going to lead to chaos in the long run. Editors and users of Opus find the standard layout that we use extremely useful. We are dedicated to getting every species as complete and in as standard a form as possible for reasons of familiarity for Opus users and ease of editing. I think that historic names are still widely used in certain circles/places and should not be removed, repositioned, etc without a good reason and without discussing it in this forum first. I also think that the editors that do the bulk of the work should have the final say on any changes that are put forward. Don't get me wrong, if the change proposed is valid and more up to date than the present article then that is good for Opus. The editors have well over 10,000 articles to look after and it is bit frustrating to have an article that has just been updated/rewritten after a considerable amount of work, changed by someone who has a dislike of American/British/whatever names or changed by someone who is not at the forefront of current thinking.
Alternate names are listed at the top of an article below the Opus "official" name and they are also redirected to that name if used in a search.
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Old Saturday 19th August 2017, 18:30   #14
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Time this one was divided into two pages, now that Clements has joined IOC in splitting Northern Harrier from Hen Harrier. I'll be happy to do so.
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Old Sunday 27th August 2017, 11:24   #15
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Time this one was divided into two pages, now that Clements has joined IOC in splitting Northern Harrier from Hen Harrier. I'll be happy to do so.
And done
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