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Hybrid Branta, Belgium, 20th Feb 2019

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Old Thursday 21st February 2019, 09:37   #1
Valéry Schollaert
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Hybrid Branta, Belgium, 20th Feb 2019

Hi all,

Please comment those 2 Barnacle Goose Hybrids taken yesterday in Harchies, Belgium.

Thanks !
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Old Thursday 21st February 2019, 12:49   #2
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could it be Barnacle x Brent? the dark smudging at the borders might suggest this. Here is a link I found
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Old Thursday 21st February 2019, 17:45   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Hurley View Post
could it be Barnacle x Brent? the dark smudging at the borders might suggest this. Here is a link I found

I think you are right, but a new hybrid for me ! Thanks !
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Old Thursday 21st February 2019, 18:53   #4
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Wouldn't Barnie x Brent (a) be a bit smaller (these if anything look marginally larger than the Barnies), and (b) have shorter tail feathers?

The bills are also dirty pinkish, which hints at an Anser species fot the other parent; Barnie x Brent would have black bill like both parents. My best guess Barnie x Euro Whitefront.
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Old Thursday 21st February 2019, 19:19   #5
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They remind me somewhat (especially the weird "patchiness" of the face) of a hybrid that hung around some country parks on the outskirts of Manchester in about 2010-12, which was tentatively identified as Barnacle x Lesser White-fronted (though Greater WF was also considered for the Anser parent, and hybrids between Barnacle and either White-front seem very variable). The bill size and shape on these makes me think Greater is more likely than Lesser?
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Old Thursday 21st February 2019, 19:19   #6
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Originally Posted by Nutcracker View Post
Wouldn't Barnie x Brent (a) be a bit smaller (these if anything look marginally larger than the Barnies), and (b) have shorter tail feathers?

The bills are also dirty pinkish, which hints at an Anser species fot the other parent; Barnie x Brent would have black bill like both parents. My best guess Barnie x Euro Whitefront.

Nutcracker nicely summarises it: barancle x brent is impossible with these birds , pinkish coloration on bill and legs clearly says the other parent is an Anser. The point about the tail featehrs of brent is also correct, the long coverts of brent giving also brent hybrids tails that appear fairly short. and the one barnacle x brent I know (the link to Dave´s website is actually my drawing) was indeed a bit smaller than Barnacle goose on the one photo where it was together with a barnacle goose.

I would however suggest Barnacle x Greylag for these birds, due to the bill being relatively high at the base and the pinkish leg color. In barnacle x greater whitefront this has more orange tones.
http://birdhybrids.blogspot.com/2014...cle-goose.html

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Old Thursday 21st February 2019, 19:21   #7
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Compare http://birdhybrids.blogspot.com/2014...-barnacle.html and http://birdhybrids.blogspot.com/2014...-barnacle.html
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Old Thursday 21st February 2019, 19:28   #8
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Very interesting... many thanks !
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Old Thursday 21st February 2019, 20:50   #9
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Its been very interesting, especially Joern and Nutcracker's reasoning! Thanks
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Old Friday 22nd February 2019, 12:29   #10
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To further illustrate this, here are some Greylag x Barnacle goose hybrids. They often have pinkish legs , but several have rather orange ones. Pale greyish ones also occur.
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/7/12952567.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/7/10673437.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/2/1075782.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/8/7763968.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/6/11692616.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/4/305344.jpg
https://waarnemingen.be/fotonew/8/1104568.jpg

beware , often there´s misidentifications, these are also Greylag x barnacle in my opinion:
https://waarnemingen.be/fotonew/5/7822265.jpg
https://waarnemingen.be/fotonew/7/19216597.jpg

generally the legs in hybrids of the whitefronts x barnacle goose are somewhat orange, and the birds are often very dark, and the bill is smaller. the folowing are probably all GWFG x Barnacle:
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/9/19679709.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/4/15442754.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/8/13828.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/9/3155239.jpg

concerning the head pattern, also snow goose hybrids with barnacle goose occasionally show that (and they have bare part coloration from pale bluegrey to pink:
http://users.utu.fi/hlehto/photo/hyb...D3A5523_ed.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/9/123659.jpg
this might also be an option. But mostly snow x barnacle goose has more white (and these certainly never have orange legs)
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Old Friday 22nd February 2019, 13:23   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joern Lehmhus View Post
To further illustrate this, here are some Greylag x Barnacle goose hybrids. They often have pinkish legs , but several have rather orange ones. Pale greyish ones also occur.
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/7/12952567.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/7/10673437.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/2/1075782.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/8/7763968.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/6/11692616.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/4/305344.jpg
https://waarnemingen.be/fotonew/8/1104568.jpg

beware , often there´s misidentifications, these are also Greylag x barnacle in my opinion:
https://waarnemingen.be/fotonew/5/7822265.jpg
https://waarnemingen.be/fotonew/7/19216597.jpg

generally the legs in hybrids of the whitefronts x barnacle goose are somewhat orange, and the birds are often very dark, and the bill is smaller. the folowing are probably all GWFG x Barnacle:
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/9/19679709.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/4/15442754.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/8/13828.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/9/3155239.jpg

concerning the head pattern, also snow goose hybrids with barnacle goose occasionally show that (and they have bare part coloration from pale bluegrey to pink:
http://users.utu.fi/hlehto/photo/hyb...D3A5523_ed.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/9/123659.jpg
this might also be an option. But mostly snow x barnacle goose has more white (and these certainly never have orange legs)
Useful, thanks !
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Old Friday 22nd February 2019, 13:50   #12
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Hi Joern

Expert analysis as always!

This example you posted (as a hybrid with orange legs) seems to have a lot in common with Bar-headed Goose, including the bill & leg colour and the dark smudge above the leg.

https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/7/10673437.jpg

What do you think?

John
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Old Saturday 23rd February 2019, 07:39   #13
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Originally Posted by screaming piha View Post
Hi Joern

Expert analysis as always!

This example you posted (as a hybrid with orange legs) seems to have a lot in common with Bar-headed Goose, including the bill & leg colour and the dark smudge above the leg.

https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/7/10673437.jpg

What do you think?

John
At first glance maybe, especially as the bird you picked has very yellow legs, but Barheaded x Barnacle doo look very different, being a more slender , smaller hybrid (and are extremely variable in the head and neck pattern)

https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/7/4340357.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/8/16107378.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/7/12802247.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/9/37589.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/9/3994119.jpg
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/1/8008491.jpg


especially the amount of white in the head and neck is variable and can be more than in the parents
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Old Monday 25th February 2019, 09:57   #14
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Originally Posted by Joern Lehmhus View Post
At first glance maybe, especially as the bird you picked has very yellow legs, but Barheaded x Barnacle doo look very different, being a more slender , smaller hybrid (and are extremely variable in the head and neck pattern)
Hi Joern

I agree with all of that.

I should have more explicit, I don't see Barnacle Goose in that bird at all. I think the Barnacle-like markings are from a Bar-headed parent.

John
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Old Monday 25th February 2019, 18:06   #15
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Originally Posted by screaming piha View Post
Hi Joern

I agree with all of that.

I should have more explicit, I don't see Barnacle Goose in that bird at all. I think the Barnacle-like markings are from a Bar-headed parent.

John
So what parentage do you suggest then; I do not know??
Because it must be an Anser x Branta (All dark tail and distribution of black on the bill)
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Old Wednesday 27th February 2019, 15:22   #16
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I was thinking Greylag and Bar-headed.

The neck "ridges" (I don't know the technical term) suggest Greylag to me. And as Greylag can have orange legs & bill, maybe those Bar-headed similarities are coincidence.

But a sturdy goose with yellow legs, yellow bill with black tip, pale grey body with feint scalloped markings, a dark smudge at the thigh and pale primaries all seemed to me to fit Bar-headed.

The lores and the dark chest would argue for Barnacle, as would the body markings if there's no Bar-headed in it. I can't make out the tail well enough to tell much there. Also, I don't know the significance of distribution of black on the bill but I had thought that a black-tipped bill would be a pro-Bar-headed feature.

Anyway, your knowledge and interest in hybrid wildfowl far surpasses mine. Maybe I'm picking up superficial features and seeing similarities that can be explained by Greylag & Barnacle influences.
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Old Wednesday 27th February 2019, 18:32   #17
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Well. there´s no real book on hybrid wildfowl ID, and the variability is certainly much higher than in pure species. so everybody can go wrong here...
It just wasn´t clear to me to whta species combination you were referring.

I agree that especially the primaries of this bird look strangely pale, either it is the angle in this single photo that gives the primaries this pale coloration;

or, perhaps more likely as also other feathers are relatively pale; maybe a pale domestic greylag was involved, like this one.
http://www.gobirding.eu/Images/Geese...0(AB2)%20L.JPG

This can result in rather pale hybrids, as this example of a canada x domestic shows:
https://farm1.static.flickr.com/149/...f239c19a57.jpg

However I have marked what I think is an uniformely dark tail , and the dark area in the bill that would not fit to greylag x barheaded, but points to Branta parent. also black on the nail would be very extensive for a grelag x barhead

here are some greylag x barheaded for comparison:
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/8/12709598.jpg
https://www.flickr.com/photos/141950...posted-public/
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/2/1085952.jpg
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Old Wednesday 27th February 2019, 18:54   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joern Lehmhus View Post
Well. there´s no real book on hybrid wildfowl ID, and the variability is certainly much higher than in pure species. so everybody can go wrong here...
It just wasn´t clear to me to whta species combination you were referring.

I agree that especially the primaries of this bird look strangely pale, either it is the angle in this single photo that gives the primaries this pale coloration;

or, perhaps more likely as also other feathers are relatively pale; maybe a pale domestic greylag was involved, like this one.
http://www.gobirding.eu/Images/Geese...0(AB2)%20L.JPG

This can result in rather pale hybrids, as this example of a canada x domestic shows:
https://farm1.static.flickr.com/149/...f239c19a57.jpg

However I have marked what I think is an uniformely dark tail , and the dark area in the bill that would not fit to greylag x barheaded, but points to Branta parent. also black on the nail would be very extensive for a grelag x barhead

here are some greylag x barheaded for comparison:
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/8/12709598.jpg
https://www.flickr.com/photos/141950...posted-public/
https://waarneming.nl/fotonew/2/1085952.jpg
You should write one
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Old Wednesday 27th February 2019, 21:05   #19
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You should write one
I´ll leave odd sandpipers out then
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