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Struggling with sharpness!! (1 Viewer)

kim

Well-known member
I have had my 20d + 100-400mm about 3 months now but don't seem to have come quite to grips with it - I was one of many that was fortunate enought to get a really good sighting of the American Green Heron on Anglesey - but despite having all the time in the world - I feel the shots are not sharp enough. I have done a little to it in Photoshop. Any advice would really be very welcome.
 

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Hi Kim,
Having looked at the exif data from the shot... it stands out that you had plenty of light to play with. You took this shot at f5.6, 1/2500 second shutter-speed at ISO 800.

The shutter-speed is great but far in excess of what is needed to freeze the action and eliminate camera shake. f5.6 is the minimum aperture on your lens, but the lens will provide even better results at f8 or more... which will also increase the depth of focus so more of the bird is in focus. Raising to f8 would've lowered the shutter speed to 1/1250 second, but still ample to remove any shake or bird movement.

Slightly less important is iso800, this high iso number will also cause image degradation compared to the next setting down iso400. Using iso400 would've also halfed your shutter-speed, but proabably still been fast enough to keep movement blur under control.

Basaically, if you are blessed with goood light, don't waste it on an excessively fast shutter-speed... altering the aperture to f8 or higher will usually make for a sharper image.

cheers,
Andy


kim said:
I have had my 20d + 100-400mm about 3 months now but don't seem to have come quite to grips with it - I was one of many that was fortunate enought to get a really good sighting of the American Green Heron on Anglesey - but despite having all the time in the world - I feel the shots are not sharp enough. I have done a little to it in Photoshop. Any advice would really be very welcome.
 
I'm no expert but I'd say you'd have been better off shooting at a lower ISO - as the shutter speecd was 1/2500 you'd probably have been fine shooting at 200 ISO. If the shot had been at a lower ISO then there would have been less noise and you could have got away with more sharpening in Photoshop.

Generally lenses are not at their sharpest when fully open - widest aperture (smallest f number). A good thing to do is to shot using aperture priority (AV) and set the aperture one stop down from fully open so with this lens fully zoomed you'd want to set it to f8.

Personally I almost always use a tripod, though with the IS you should get away with hand holding far more. Aim to shoot at shutter speeds of about 1/500, if you need to use higher ISO to get the shutter speed up, you can always try and clean up the noise with a program like neat image. On your shot there are areas that are slightly overexposed, it is sometimes worth deliberatly underexposing a shot so that light images don't overexpose. Underexposure is easy to deal with in photoshop - over exposure can ruin a shot. Underexposing can also help to keep eth shutter speeds high will keeping the ISO low.

Hope some of that helps. Just ran the shot through neat image to clean up the noise, I've also slightly darkend it and applied a bit of sharpening.

EDIT- that'll teach me to type so slow - submitted my reply only to find that Andy had just said it all... oh well.
 

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postcardcv said:
I'm no expert but I'd say you'd have been better off shooting at a lower ISO - as the shutter speecd was 1/2500 you'd probably have been fine shooting at 200 ISO. If the shot had been at a lower ISO then there would have been less noise and you could have got away with more sharpening in Photoshop.

Generally lenses are not at their sharpest when fully open - widest aperture (smallest f number). A good thing to do is to shot using aperture priority (AV) and set the aperture one stop down from fully open so with this lens fully zoomed you'd want to set it to f8.

Personally I almost always use a tripod, though with the IS you should get away with hand holding far more. Aim to shoot at shutter speeds of about 1/500, if you need to use higher ISO to get the shutter speed up, you can always try and clean up the noise with a program like neat image. On your shot there are areas that are slightly overexposed, it is sometimes worth deliberatly underexposing a shot so that light images don't overexpose. Underexposure is easy to deal with in photoshop - over exposure can ruin a shot. Underexposing can also help to keep eth shutter speeds high will keeping the ISO low.

Hope some of that helps. Just ran the shot through neat image to clean up the noise, I've also slightly darkend it and applied a bit of sharpening.

EDIT- that'll teach me to type so slow - submitted my reply only to find that Andy had just said it all... oh well.
Thank you both - I think the main problem is that I don't remember to adjust the camera to the situation. With the am heron I waas so excited at seeing it so close - the brain cell ceased to function. Also had read on an earlier forum the benefits of higher ISO shutter speeds. Not in this situ - obviously!
Of course what you have said makes sense - so back to more practise . Shame the heron has gone!!
I haven't used a tripod - I have also a mono pod - but thought this cancelled out the benefits of the IS. Incidentally I have an 1.4 extender but feel I can't use this till I have the basics sorted out.
Again - many thanks
 
Two further points which may be of use:

Always use a tripod if you can. Anything that helps to reduce camera shake will be of benefit.

Try to keep the bird's eye in focus. Looking at your photo the plumage from the neck backwards seems to be sharper so it may be that you have not focused on the head. Easier said than done if the bird is moving but probably easier if using a tripod. If you are using autofocus a useful pc tool is the EOS Viewer Utility software which allows you to see which part of the photo the camera was focusing on.

An interesting point in respect of the autofocus zones is that the camera focuses on an area that actually extends outside these squares so you need to make sure that your target overlaps the autofocus box or alternatively resort to manual focussing.
 
Michael McKee said:
Always use a tripod if you can. Anything that helps to reduce camera shake will be of benefit.
Hi Michael,

Kim's using an image stabilised lens, presumably to avoid the need for a tripod.

As a user of a similar lens myself, I'm certain that this function plus a 2500th shutter speed would have removed any stability issues as far as this pic is concerned - assuming Kim wasn't literally jumping up and down in all the excitement, of course! ;)
 
Keith Reeder said:
Hi Michael,

Kim's using an image stabilised lens, presumably to avoid the need for a tripod.

As a user of a similar lens myself, I'm certain that this function plus a 2500th shutter speed would have removed any stability issues as far as this pic is concerned - assuming Kim wasn't literally jumping up and down in all the excitement, of course! ;)
I was just about to ask the question Keith - I was using the IS and therefore thought it incorrect to use a tripod (No I wasn't jumping up and down - but I was snapping in haste and not thinking first!!) You say use auto focus Michael - do you mean on the IS? Sorry to sound silly - but the camera was on Aperture Priority and the lens on AF. I have tried what you have all been suggesting - apart from the tripod - on a blue tit!! I attach image - and I have at long last worked out how to use Neatimage - which I have applied - using auto! Hope this makes sense. I used !SO 400 and raised the aperture to 8
 

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kim said:
I was just about to ask the question Keith - I was using the IS and therefore thought it incorrect to use a tripod (No I wasn't jumping up and down - but I was snapping in haste and not thinking first!!) You say use auto focus Michael - do you mean on the IS? Sorry to sound silly - but the camera was on Aperture Priority and the lens on AF. I have tried what you have all been suggesting - apart from the tripod - on a blue tit!! I attach image - and I have at long last worked out how to use Neatimage - which I have applied - using auto! Hope this makes sense. I used !SO 400 and raised the aperture to 8

Now that shot is sharp. A very nice shot.

With regard to IS it doesn't preclude you from using a tripod. Most of the current IS lenses I believe are compatible with tripod use. I also have an IS lens and almost always use a tripod as well.

It sounds as if you are using autofocus correctly. On the camera you can set which zone you want the camera to focus on. I always use the centre one on its own but that is just a personal preference.
 
Hi Michael,

I've never used my camera/stabilised lens on a tripod (I bought the lens specifically to avoid using tripods! ;)) but there seems to be a lot of conflicting information out there about IS (or OS for me, it's a Sigma lens) and tripod use.

The instructions with my lens - and much online commentary - say "switch it off if you're using a tripod", and this seems to apply (in the eyes of many people) to Canon and Nikon stabilised lenses too.

Then occasionally I read something to the exact opposite efect, posted by someone like yourself who clearly combines approaches successfully..!

;)

Kim,

when all's said and done that's a sharp blue tit, so it can obviously be done hand-held, and hiking the aperture up to f8 will certainly have helped with the overall sharpness.

As an aside, I did notice that the heron's feet and the mud and water that its plodging through looked nice and sharp, so I'm wondering if you auto focussed on the wrong part of the scene instead of the eye, as Michael recommends...
 
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Keith Reeder said:
Hi Michael,

I've never used my camera/stabilised lens on a tripod (I bought the lens specifically to avoid using tripods! ;)) but there seems to be a lot of conflicting information out there about IS (or OS for me, it's a Sigma lens) and tripod use.

The instructions with my lens - and much online commentary - say "switch it off if you're using a tripod", and this seems to apply (in the eyes of many people) to Canon and Nikon stabilised lenses too.

Then occasionally I read something to the exact opposite efect, posted by someone like yourself who clearly combines approaches successfully..!

Kim,

when all's said and done that's a sharp blue tit, so it can obviously be done hand-held, and hiking the aperture up to f8 will certainly have helped with the overall sharpness.

As an aside, I did notice that the heron's feet and the mud and water that its plodging through looked nice and sharp sharp, so I'm wondering if you auto focussed on the wrong part of the scene instead of the eye, as Michael recommends...
I'm quite sure I did focus on the wrong part or the bird - I certainly didn't aim for the head - just the whole bird - so it probably was the feet as you say!
Thanks again for all the advice - it really is appreciated - and any further suggestions as to settings etc would be most welcome.
 
Yes, from everything I've read, including on manufacturers sites, you should NOT use image stabilization if you are using a tripod.

With a monopod, I believe that you SHOULD use IS. A monopod isn't a tripod, and no way near as stable as one. It just makes your handholding somewhat steadier. So use IS with it.
 
RAH said:
Yes, from everything I've read, including on manufacturers sites, you should NOT use image stabilization if you are using a tripod.

With a monopod, I believe that you SHOULD use IS. A monopod isn't a tripod, and no way near as stable as one. It just makes your handholding somewhat steadier. So use IS with it.

I've come up with the following links on the subject:

http://www.dlcphotography.net/TripodAndIS.htm

http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/canonFAQ.htm#3Q6a0

It seems that some Canon lenses are suitable for tripod use with IS (this includes my 400mm f4) and for others (including the 100-400mm) you need to turn IS off.
 
Using my 300 f/4L IS on tripod I turn IS off. But when using my 70-200 f/2.8L IS, I leave it on since the lens detects the tripod and the IS negates vibration from mirror slap.

Trev
 
I have the 20D and 100-400mm IS f4,5-f5,6 - albeit just for a couple of weeks now. The advice from Canon is not to use IS if this lens/camera is tripod mounted. It's simple enough to switch off but for most situations for bird photos especially I don't see the benefit of mouting this lens on a tripod and seldom on a monopod. The IS is very effective, certainly good enough for bright days like when the Heron photo was taken.

As regards camera settings then I've been using sensitivity ratings of between ISO100 and ISO800. The higher the ISO the grainier (noisier) the image.

ISO100 and ISO200 are fine on sunny days with well lit subjects. They'll yield the best colours and detail with least 'noise'.

ISO400 gives pretty decent results as well with minimal though noticeable 'noise'. Maybe better for shadow areas on sunny days or dull days generally.

ISO800 does show the 'noise' but enables faster shutter speeds on dull days. The 'noise' can always be reduced using the likes of NeatImage or Picture Cooler. Having said that ISO800 on the 20D is less grainy than ISO100 on my last camera!

Overall I prefer to use the lowest setting possible, though with the 20D I've about settled on ISO200 as the norm for this time of the year for bright days though I don't mind at all going up to ISO400 if the sun goes in.

With the Heron photo I'd also have sacrificed shutter speed for more aperture. I've been managing with shutter speeds down to 1/60 using this lens though at least 1/250 or more preferable 1/500. Anything higher is 'wasted' on a bird that's moving slowly assuming you're standing still when taking the photo. One of the biggest advantages of using a high aperture setting is the wider depth of field so if focus is slightly out or the bird moves slightly after focussing then there is more chance of it remaining within the sharp focus area.

For focus mode I use the centre-weighted setting for birds and always try to get the camera to pick up the birds head/eye if at all possible. With the Blue Tit though I'd have picked the white cheek to expose for. The rest of the bird would have been too dark, but could be corrected on the computer whilst at the same time the feather detail in the cheeks would be retained.
 
taking the photo. One of the biggest advantages of using a high aperture setting is the wider depth of field so if focus is slightly out or the bird moves slightly after focussing then there is more chance of it remaining within the sharp focus area.

For focus mode I use the centre-weighted setting for birds and always try to get the camera to pick up the birds head/eye if at all possible. With the Blue Tit though I'd have picked the white cheek to expose for. The rest of the bird would have been too dark, but could be corrected on the computer whilst at the same time the feather detail in the cheeks would be retained.

Thanks Ian - I'll have a go at this if the weather is reasonable tomorrow. Perhaps you can answer another query - whilst birding recently another canon user showed me a 'moving rectangle' on the lcd panel which he said concentrated the focus on a particular area. I haven't clue how he did this. Perhaps you can enlighten me please. Also displaying my ignorance a bit further - I keep reading in various manuals that one should check the histogram - do you find this helps. It's something I have never done.
 
Hi Kim,

I should first add that I'm finding AV setting on the top left dial to be the most effective so far along with AI focus and the Partial Metering - which is the nearest thing the camera has to spot metering.

The floating rectangles will be the focus points you can see in the viewfinder which are reflected on the top LCD panel as little dashes when you half depress the shutter and press the button on the top right of the camera back the one above the magnifying glass with the + in the centre. It's a means of manually selecting any one of the nine focus points so you can place it over the main point of the subject - in this case usually the birds head/eye. It's easier to view it in the viewfinder as the point lights up as you move the toggle, but it's a little fiddly as you have to select the focus point using the tiny toggle button top right of the back panel LCD. To be honest I wouldn't worry about it. I've tinkered with it but find an easier method is to rely on the autofocus just half depressing and releasing the shutter button until one or more of the focus points locks on the bit I want.

I rely on autofocus most of the time and usually with a smaller aperture selected the bits that matter are all in focus - often the whole bird. The autofocus locks on to the nearest thing to the camera which is usually the bird you want a photo of. If the bird is sat in a tree or bush and there are branches between you and it then that's the time I'd use the manually selected focus point as it's likely the autofocus would pick up the branches between you and the bird.

Some people do find the histograms helpful, but personally I don't, at least not when taking the photos. I'll take a few shots and check them for clarity of the back LCD using playback. If they're about right you can soon tell. If you have more time then you can use the histograms to check exposure is correct and then make adjustments to centre it better, but the camera is pretty good on autoexposure and even if not spot on, you can adjust levels on the computer afterwards. I guess it's something to work up to later once you're familiar and comfortable with the camera settings but I wouldn't worry about it for now at least I'm not ;)
 
IanF said:
Hi Kim,

I should first add that I'm finding AV setting on the top left dial to be the most effective so far along with AI focus and the Partial Metering - which is the nearest thing the camera has to spot metering.

The floating rectangles will be the focus points you can see in the viewfinder which are reflected on the top LCD panel as little dashes when you half depress the shutter and press the button on the top right of the camera back the one above the magnifying glass with the + in the centre. It's a means of manually selecting any one of the nine focus points so you can place it over the main point of the subject - in this case usually the birds head/eye. It's easier to view it in the viewfinder as the point lights up as you move the toggle, but it's a little fiddly as you have to select the focus point using the tiny toggle button top right of the back panel LCD. To be honest I wouldn't worry about it. I've tinkered with it but find an easier method is to rely on the autofocus just half depressing and releasing the shutter button until one or more of the focus points locks on the bit I want.

I rely on autofocus most of the time and usually with a smaller aperture selected the bits that matter are all in focus - often the whole bird. The autofocus locks on to the nearest thing to the camera which is usually the bird you want a photo of. If the bird is sat in a tree or bush and there are branches between you and it then that's the time I'd use the manually selected focus point as it's likely the autofocus would pick up the branches between you and the bird.

Some people do find the histograms helpful, but personally I don't, at least not when taking the photos. I'll take a few shots and check them for clarity of the back LCD using playback. If they're about right you can soon tell. If you have more time then you can use the histograms to check exposure is correct and then make adjustments to centre it better, but the camera is pretty good on autoexposure and even if not spot on, you can adjust levels on the computer afterwards. I guess it's something to work up to later once you're familiar and comfortable with the camera settings but I wouldn't worry about it for now at least I'm not ;)

Very many thanks Ian for all the detailed help. I am on AV and was on evaluative metering but have moved over to centre weighted but will try both this and partial tomorrow. I had the focus on Al Servo but have moved to Al focus so will try this again tomorrow.
Again
thanks for all the patience
 
Kim

Something that I don`t think anyones mentioned so far is what focussing mode did you have set in the camera? IE One shot,or servo mode it sometimes helps with a moving bird to have the autofocus set up to track the subject.

Cheers Steve.
 
Keith Reeder said:
Hi Stevo,

Hi there
Another day - another opportunity only here its pouring down!! However I have printed off all the welcome advice - now I just have to wait for the weather to improve and hope to try and get an improved result!! :scribe:
 
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