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HMW Handbook of the Mammals of the World

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Old Sunday 23rd August 2009, 18:17   #26
TheSeagull
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Anybody know where I could get this relatively cheap? I am not stingy but I can't see myself paying over 100 or even over 60 on a book unless it contained every single piece of information ever to be gathered by mankind on everything...
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Old Sunday 23rd August 2009, 20:33   #27
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Anybody know where I could get this relatively cheap? I am not stingy but I can't see myself paying over 100 or even over 60...
I wouldn't hold your breath!! Maybe in about 10yrs time...?? Not even sure if you can pick up Vol 1 of HBW for less than 60 yet....
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Old Monday 24th August 2009, 06:26   #28
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I wouldn't hold your breath!! Maybe in about 10yrs time...?? Not even sure if you can pick up Vol 1 of HBW for less than 60 yet....
Nope, the cheapest I can find HBW V.1 is 139 and HMW V.1 for 134! Might increase in time! Guess I'll just have to ask Santa
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Old Monday 24th August 2009, 11:37   #29
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Nope, the cheapest I can find HBW V.1 is 139 and HMW V.1 for 134! Might increase in time! Guess I'll just have to ask Santa
Yeah me too!! At least you know it's a good investment - HBW1 is what, 15-odd yrs old now??
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Old Tuesday 25th August 2009, 17:31   #30
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Changing direction slightly - Have just received my reminder for the forthcoming HBW 14 and see that the pre-publication offer is a whopping 150...ouch!!! I just hope they haven't used any sub-standard artists this time for that bloody price......I remember when the pp price was (just!) 85....happier times! So it's gone up 30-odd from last year alone...
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Old Tuesday 25th August 2009, 20:18   #31
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Changing direction slightly - Have just received my reminder for the forthcoming HBW 14 and see that the pre-publication offer is a whopping 150...ouch!!! I just hope they haven't used any sub-standard artists this time for that bloody price......I remember when the pp price was (just!) 85....happier times! So it's gone up 30-odd from last year alone...
Be thankful you're not paying for it in Icelandic krnur!

As for HMW, I had a quick look through it at Birdfair and it seemed very impressive and superbly put together. However, even on the brief glance I'm pretty sure that the range map for Wolf in Greenland is completely wrong, almost the opposite of what it should be.

E
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Old Wednesday 2nd September 2009, 22:29   #32
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Received my copy today and must admit I think it's bloody good - the photos are top-notch and the plates are darned good too! Must admit to finding some of the taxonomic issues puzzling, like lumping all the tigers together (does this not downsize the plight of say, the Sumatran, if it's relegated to just being a ssp...?), same with the African and Asian Lion and was amazed to see Dingo treated as a ssp of Grey Wolf! I admit to not knowing much about the taxonomy of mammals but this was a surprise! Still a great book and looking forward to the rest of the series
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Old Thursday 3rd September 2009, 08:39   #33
Rasmus Boegh
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Received my copy today and must admit I think it's bloody good - the photos are top-notch and the plates are darned good too! Must admit to finding some of the taxonomic issues puzzling, like lumping all the tigers together (does this not downsize the plight of say, the Sumatran, if it's relegated to just being a ssp...?), same with the African and Asian Lion and was amazed to see Dingo treated as a ssp of Grey Wolf! I admit to not knowing much about the taxonomy of mammals but this was a surprise! Still a great book and looking forward to the rest of the series
No strong evidence supports treating the various tigers or lions as anything but subspecies per the Biological Species Concept. Species *only* if following the Phylogenetic Species Concept or alike. A few authorities have said they also should be species per BSC, but the supporting evidence that has been published until now just doesn't hold at anything above the previously mentioned PSC & alike. The Dingo is more of an issue of nomenclature than taxonomy. It is clearly part of the same BSC species as the Grey Wolf (even if the "traditional" limits of the Grey Wolf quite certainly don't hold, but that's another discussion), but some authorities have argued for the validity of the "domestics name" versus the name of the (sometimes presumed) ancestors, in which case the Dingo would be a ssp. of C. familiaris. Similar examples are the by some used S. domestica for the pig versus S. scrofa for the Wild Boar, or E. caballus for the horse versus E. ferus for the Wild Horse. If I remember right (which isn't certain, 'cause my interest in the domestics is somewhat limited), ICZN has even been asked to take a stance on the validity of certain names of some of the domestics.

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Old Thursday 3rd September 2009, 09:28   #34
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The maps in the HMW are the same as the in the IUCN redlist

here is the example with the Gray Wolf

http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/3746/0

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I'm pretty sure that the range map for Wolf in Greenland is completely wrong, almost the opposite of what it should be.
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Old Thursday 3rd September 2009, 13:18   #35
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Thanks for that Ras - as they (who are 'they' I've often wondered) say, you're never too old to learn something new!!
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Old Thursday 3rd September 2009, 14:52   #36
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The maps in the HMW are the same as the in the IUCN redlist

here is the example with the Gray Wolf

http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/3746/0
Thanks for that, Melanie. Yes, I'm pretty sure that's completely wrong as far as Wolves in Greenland are concerned (although I'm more than willing to be corrected). As far as I know Wolves only occur across the top end of Greenland and down the east coast roughly to Scoresbysund i.e. the blank area on the map. They are accidental at best on the west coast south of the Qaanaaq area and certainly wouldn't be tolerated any longer than it took to grab a rifle on the more densely populated areas of the west coast. A minor complaint about an otherwise superb publication.
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Old Thursday 3rd September 2009, 17:46   #37
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I was a little involved in domestic swine research some years ago, and there would to my mind be good reason to use Sus domesticus for the domestic one: they do not even have the same number of chromosomes as most wild boar. The few wild boar with the domestic number are likely to have had recent domestic ancesters, so be of "hybrid" origin. When doing planned interbreeding for gene mapping, these wild boars with domestic chromosome number were preferred, it seemed that the results were better in terms of husbandry and offspring ... Having said that, I can only remember having seen Sus scrofa for the domestic pig.

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Old Thursday 3rd September 2009, 19:16   #38
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I am browsing through my copy for the last two weeks.

I still remain with the opinion, that it is the very good worldwide overview of carnivores. However, reservations are piling up.

The chapter on general overview of mammals is poor textbook style - brief and boring. The author could read a blogger Darren Naish (of tetrapodzoology blog) to see that anatomy can be interesting and full of facts directly revelant to animal's life.

Also, the family texts seem partially rather boring and obvious, but interesting bits are omitted. Why list which cat species occur in which habitats (lynx and cougar in boreal forests etc...), but omit interesting facts on in large predator management or on molecular and biomechanical studies of sabre-toothed cats?

Among mistakes is that eurasian lynx rarely hunts red deer, its habit of hiding prey is omitted, that indochinese clouded leopard hunt proboscis monkeys, and asian badger is a mess (apparently both texts didn't get updated very well after the split of clouded leopards and eurasian badgers into two species).

Taxonomy is sometimes strange. For ferret-badgers and egyptian weasel, I would be very interested in reasons of their specific status. Although the mammalian taxonomy is often in need of review, it could more often be briefly discussed and gaps in knowledge and needs of revision mentioned.

Subspecies, as Rasmus pointed, are a particular mess. They are usually not descibed, sometimes not listed at all, and sometimes subspecies on the colour plate even don't match ones in the text! Also, they are not written on photos, unlike HBW. Bad decision, because subspecies of carnivores often differ dramatically in apperance, ecology and conservation status.

A few photos are not too well reproduced, and worrying number of them are painfully captive trained cats or were frequently published (this photo of two dingos with a goanna I saw maybe a dozen times over many years - I cannot believe that dingos are difficult to photograph!?). Strangely, I saw many much better pics of eg. hunting lions or wolves with cubs.

So, a good book, but nowhere matches HBW and there is a large room for improvement for the next volumes.
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Old Friday 4th September 2009, 10:18   #39
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I was a little involved in domestic swine research some years ago, and there would to my mind be good reason to use Sus domesticus for the domestic one: they do not even have the same number of chromosomes as most wild boar.
There are a number of cases (e.g. Aotus) where different chromosome numbers occur among taxa known to hybridize freely where they come into contact (i.e. part of a single BSC species), and, as is known from several cases both from Mammalia (e.g. Sorex) and other classes (e.g. Corydoras), the number of autosomes can be far more plastic than traditionally has been believed. To my knowledge, there is no evidence suggesting any limit (other than farmers!) exists for geneflow between domestic pigs & their wild ancestors. Consequently, treating them as separate species is not a possibility if following BSC. If having a preference for PSC, they are, of course, clearly separate species (and regardless of species concept, the taxonomy of Sus scrofa will likely need reshuffling at some point; notably some south-east Asian populations appear to be closer to various other Sus sp. in that region than to the "traditional" populations within S. scrofa).
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Old Friday 4th September 2009, 14:46   #40
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There are a number of cases (e.g. Aotus) where different chromosome numbers occur among taxa known to hybridize freely where they come into contact (i.e. part of a single BSC species), and, as is known from several cases both from Mammalia (e.g. Sorex) and other classes (e.g. Corydoras), the number of autosomes can be far more plastic than traditionally has been believed. To my knowledge, there is no evidence suggesting any limit (other than farmers!) exists for geneflow between domestic pigs & their wild ancestors. Consequently, treating them as separate species is not a possibility if following BSC. If having a preference for PSC, they are, of course, clearly separate species (and regardless of species concept, the taxonomy of Sus scrofa will likely need reshuffling at some point; notably some south-east Asian populations appear to be closer to various other Sus sp. in that region than to the "traditional" populations within S. scrofa).
When I wrote the Sus domesticus remark, I was thinking in analogy to the Wolf/dog situation, if one deserves a separate designation, then it is my feeling that the other also does. Maybe the more stringent outcome would be to not use domesticus for the dog?

The notes about chromosome plasticity are interesting! Currently teaching human genetics, I am telling the students that the risk of getting phenotypically abnormal ofspring for a heterozygote of a chromosome fusion is about 66% at the time of the zygote, falling to a (much) lower number during gestation due to fetal loss. For that reason, I think of chromosome number discrepancies as a partial isolating mechanism. Behavior-wise, I am not sure the swine don't have isolating mechanisms as well; if you want to have them interbreed, then it is impossible for a domestic boar to be accepted by a wild sow, and the other way, there is still a risk that the wild boar kills the sow instead of doing what you want. Of course, if running wild in the forest, the wild boar could be behaving differently than in semiwild husbandry conditions.

Do you have any references of the cases you describe for mammalia?

thanks
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Old Friday 4th September 2009, 17:09   #41
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I would add that Przewalski wild horses have different number of chromosomes from the domestic horses - which didn't prevent frequent hybridization (all living Przewalski's horses have some domestic blood).

Pigs are interesting and suprpisingly understudied, but I think papers on pig domestication and pygmy hog phylogeny would notice if Sus scrofa were more than one species. BTW, collared peccaries, in turn, showed specific-level genetic differences between N and S America.
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Old Friday 4th September 2009, 18:33   #42
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... but I think papers on pig domestication and pygmy hog phylogeny would notice if Sus scrofa were more than one species.
Most of these have just included a few more or less random samples of the wild Sus scrofa (often only S. s. scrofa), and therefore have revealed little on possible species-level issue among the wild taxa. There are exceptions, though none have focussed primarily on this and therefore given results allowing for clear judgement, as also described on pp. 22 & onwards in the following, which also comments on the issue of domestic pigs versus ancestors. It should be noted, however, that it is authored by a strong proponent of PSC (NOTE: large file - don't bother if you're not really interested in this):

http://arts.anu.edu.au/grovco/Albare...al.%20pigs.pdf

As above is from 2007 it obviously doesn't mention the simultaneous publication that validated Porcula. Regardless, there are also other unresolved taxonomical issues in south-east Asian Sus as shown by e.g. Lucchini, Meijaard, Diong, Groves & Randi (2005) in J. Zool., London, 266.

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Old Friday 4th September 2009, 22:48   #43
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Do you have any references of the cases you describe for mammalia?
Missed that earlier. First two non-Sorex examples. The presence of complex chromosomal variations for the second example, Mus musculus, is relatively well known and far more has been written about it than just the two references I mention here:

* Pieczarka, de Souza Barros, de Faria Jr, & Nagamachi (1993). Aotus from the southwestern Amazon region is geographically and chromosomally intermediate between A. azarae boliviensis and A. infulatus. Primates 34(2): 197-204.

* Castiglia & Capanna (1999). Contact zones between chromosomal races of Mus musculus domesticus. 1. Temporal analysis of a hybrid zone between the CD chromosomal race (2n=22) and populations with the standard karyotype. Heredity 83(3): 319–326.

* Solano, Castiglia & Capanna (2009). Chromosomal evolution of the house mouse, Mus musculus domesticus, in the Aeolian Archipelago (Sicily, Italy). Biological Journal of the Linnean Society 96 (1): 194-202.

The situation in Sorex is highly complex, where there are both so-called "chromosomal races" and even monotypic species with major variations in their chromosomes. The most extreme is S. araneus where the diploid number varies from 2n = 20-33! Numerous articles + at least one Ph.D. Thesis dealing with this have been written - indeed, few other mammalian groups have had their chromosomes analysed to the same extend as the widespread Palearctic Sorex and below are just a sample of articles. Note that the first deals with another species (S. tundrensis; 2n = 31-41), but there are yet other species with known chromosomal variations (e.g. S. trowbridgii; 2n = 31-42), and several species from this genus are still rather poorly known (i.e. they may display some chromosomal variations, but at this point it remains unknown).

* Lukĉov, Zima & Volobouev (1996). Karyotypic variation in Sorex tundrensis (Soricidae, Insectivora). Hereditas 125(2-3): 233-238.

* Polyakov, Chadova, Rodionova, Panov, Dobrotvorsky, Searle & Borodin (1997). Novosibirsk revisited 24 years on: chromosome polymorphism in the Novosibirsk population of the common shrew Sorex araneus L. Heredity 79(2), 172–177.

* Narain & Fredga (1997). Meiosis and fertility in common shrews, Sorex araneus from a chromosomal hybrid zone in central Sweden. Cytogenetics and cell genetics 78(3-4): 253-259.

* Fedyk & Chętnicki (2007). Preferential segregation of metacentric chromosomes in simple Robertsonian heterozygotes of Sorex araneus. Heredity 99(5): 545–552.

* Fredga & Narain (2008). The complex hybrid zone between the Abisko and Sidensj chromosome races of Sorex araneus in Sweden. Biological Journal of the Linnean Society 70(2): 285-307.

* Ratkiewicz, Fedyk, Banaszek, Gielly, Chetnicki, Jadwiszczak & Taberlet (2002). The evolutionary history of the two karyotypic groups of the common shrew, Sorex araneus, in Poland. Heredity 88(4): 235–242.

* Borodin, Karamysheva, Belonogova, Torgasheva, Rubtsov, & Searle (2008). Recombination Map of the Common Shrew, Sorex araneus (Eulipotyphla, Mammalia). Genetics 178(2): 621–632.

* Andersson, Narain, Tegelstrm & Fredga (2004). No apparent reduction of gene flow in a hybrid zone between the West and North European karyotypic groups of the common shrew, Sorex araneus. Molecular Ecology 13(5): 1205-1215.

* Wjcik, Ratkiewicz & Searle (2002). Evolution of the common shrew Sorex araneus: chromosomal and molecular aspects. Acta Theriologica 47 (suppl. 1): 139-167.

Of course it should be noted that I did not say this was the norm among mammals (simply that it occurs; there are also more known examples than the above + quite certainly several that still haven't been discovered, as the chromosomes of most mammals still haven't been analysed in detail), and if speaking about the mammal you mentioned, the human, major changes in the chromosomes are generally either debilitating or lethal (at least all the ones I know).

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Old Saturday 5th September 2009, 02:13   #44
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snip

Of course it should be noted that I did not say this was the norm among mammals (simply that it occurs; there are also more known examples than the above + quite certainly several that still haven't been discovered, as the chromosomes of most mammals still haven't been analysed in detail), and if speaking about the mammal you mentioned, the human, major changes in the chromosomes are generally either debilitating or lethal (at least all the ones I know).
Thanks a ton Rasmus, that should keep me busy for a while. I found a description of the Japanese raccoon dog which also varies in karyotype, but that description did not include anything on consequences, quite opposite of your references if I guess right.

Regarding humans, the only neutral chromosomal variation that springs to mind are small centric inversions and length variation in the non-coding part of the Y.

Niels
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Old Sunday 6th September 2009, 22:13   #45
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....Regarding humans, the only neutral chromosomal variation that springs to mind are small centric inversions and length variation in the non-coding part of the Y.

Niels
I guess, XYY individuals would count as well? Though there are indications that there are some effects.

What an interesting thread this has become! Having taught biology for decades, but being retired now, it almost makes me glad I did not know of all the complications earlier. ;-) At any rate, fascinating and a great way to find confirmation that nature never ceases to offer new puzzles.

I should add that I have also not been impressed with that general introductory chapter. It started out with the rather primitive looking illustrations. Textbook style is the apt description for them, and of a rather boring type indeed. Good thing the rest of the book offers more excitement. But I also felt a dej vu in more than one case when looking at the photos. Part of the problem may have come from the way the pictures were selected. A friend of mine who contributes to both HBW and HMW, mentioned that the editors did not even want photos for the cats when they invited contributors to send pictures. I think that kind of procedure leads to the multiple use of many of the already often published photos. Thus effectively reducing the chances for new versions of some undeniably spectacular events.
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Old Sunday 6th September 2009, 23:44   #46
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Yes XYY is borderline. Also worth mentioning is the copy number variation of large areas (the largest I know of is about 1 million bp, but I expect to see some larger ones in the future) that have started to become uncovered; however, the jury is still out on which of these have any influence on phenotype, and which does not.

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Old Tuesday 8th September 2009, 00:13   #47
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Having taught biology for decades, but being retired now, it almost makes me glad I did not know of all the complications earlier. ;-) At any rate, fascinating and a great way to find confirmation that nature never ceases to offer new puzzles.
Do you know that at least 3 unrelated rodents lost Y chromosome and have X0 system? Sorry, cannot quote paper now.

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I think that kind of procedure leads to the multiple use of many of the already often published photos.
Somehow, in HBW I don't remember so many already published bird photos. And such obviously captive animals - like these two gibbons on the grass lawn...
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Old Tuesday 8th September 2009, 19:02   #48
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Do you know that at least 3 unrelated rodents lost Y chromosome and have X0 system? Sorry, cannot quote paper now.....
...
I know about X0 systems, though I did not know they occur in some rodents as well.
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Old Sunday 13th September 2009, 13:24   #49
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Somehow, in HBW I don't remember so many already published bird photos. And such obviously captive animals - like these two gibbons on the grass lawn...
Actually, there have been plenty of obvious captives, but mostly in the earlier volumes of HBW (which also provided less coverage of ssp's, thereby also matching HMW vol. 1 more closely than later volumes of HBW). It is in no way limited to these, but just check photos in the Phasianidae & Cracidae chapters of HBW vol. 2. There have also been several examples from more recent volumes that (to me, anyway) clearly involved captives, though they now tend to blurr out the background. A particularly unfortunate example can be seen on pp. 127 in HBW vol. 10, where I suspect the indicated locality of the captive is to blame for a mistaken identification. Regardless, I suspect we'll see the same developement in HMW that we've already seen in HBW; several improvements being adopted along the way, with later volumes better than earlier.

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Old Sunday 13th September 2009, 19:52   #50
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Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I see no problem with photos of captive animals if the species or behavior was impossible to photograph in the wild and, ideally, the captive status was noted.

So I see no problem in captive photo of extremely shy rusty-spotted cat or various cracids. But a red fox, puma or a white-handed gibbon? It's a stuff you see on wall calendars.
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