Canon EF 600mm f/4 DO BR lens (1 Viewer)

Chosun Juan said:

I must say, I am finding these new lightweight MkIII (both 600/f4 and 400/f2.8) MTF charts a bit puzzling ........ :brains:

It looks like more than just a small hit compared to the MkII's ...... so perplexed was I that I checked the 400 too, and it's showing a similar drop off in theoretical IQ like the 600.

I mean these new MkIII charts look more like they belong to a Tamron than an uber dollar Canon supertelephoto ...... they are definitely not a Tamron price though! :eek!:

Even more puzzling is when you look at the new lightweight Sony 400 f2.8 G-Master (which is essentially the same lens design concept as the new MkIII's) and it has a stellar MTF chart - more like the highly regarded MkII Canon's ......

Curiouser and curiouser :cat: :cat:


Chosun :gh:

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Canon say they are using a new standard to measure the lenses. And old lenses will be re-measured...:eek!:
I hope Canon realize that they have a communication problem here...
MTF:s without telling what units (lp/mm) etc. used are pretty useless.
Would be strange if they are that much worse than mkII:s as the Sony 400mm seems as sharp as you could expect.
Curiouser it gets.

Chosun Juan said:

It seems like Canon have adopted the same trick as Sony in reducing weight, ie. effectively a very large air spaced objective to peel weight out of the front of the lens - I'm pretty confident a similar approach would see the DO version come in sub 2.5kg ... o

Chosun :gh:

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The incentive for Canon making a 600mm/f4 DO EF just dropped to close to zero.

Vespobuteo said:

The incentive for Canon making a 600mm/f4 DO EF just dropped to close to zero.

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I fear there may be an element of truth in that ...... :-C

Certainly the half kilo or so reduction would not be as impressive as the circa kilo and a third wrt the MkII ..... still for a 600/f4 ~ 3kg = great ..... ~2.5kg = brilliant ! :t: :king: Don't forget, the DO would be shorter too and thus much handier for BIF.

C'mon Canon - surprise us - 600 f4 DO and 7D MkIII announced at Photokina

Of course, Canon could always do something really funky - like release the 600 f4 DO as an RF mirrorless mount only .... :eek!: :cat:



Chosun :gh:

Vespobuteo said:

Canon say they are using a new standard to measure the lenses. And old lenses will be re-measured...:eek!:
I hope Canon realize that they have a communication problem here...
MTF:s without telling what units (lp/mm) etc. used are pretty useless.
Would be strange if they are that much worse than mkII:s as the Sony 400mm seems as sharp as you could expect.
Curiouser it gets.

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Vespo, that's interesting - do you have a link to an official source for that information?

At a guess, it looks like Canon have included 10, 30, and possibly now 50 lp/mm on the graphs. The 50lp/mm lines are the lowest as you would expect - it's the regular measures of 10 and 30 lp/mm that are the concern ....strangely (unless they've somehow changed the measurement of that ??).

The Sony looks outstanding, so this Canon data is indeed puzzling :cat: :cat:




Chosun :gh:

Chosun Juan said:

Vespo, that's interesting - do you have a link to an official source for that information?

At a guess, it looks like Canon have included 10, 30, and possibly now 50 lp/mm on the graphs. The 50lp/mm lines are the lowest as you would expect - it's the regular measures of 10 and 30 lp/mm that are the concern ....strangely (unless they've somehow changed the measurement of that ??).

The Sony looks outstanding, so this Canon data is indeed puzzling :cat: :cat:

Chosun :gh:

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It's not official-official, but credible info from people who have been in contact with Canon.

Chosun Juan said:

I fear there may be an element of truth in that ...... :-C

Certainly the half kilo or so reduction would not be as impressive as the circa kilo and a third wrt the MkII ..... still for a 600/f4 ~ 3kg = great ..... ~2.5kg = brilliant ! :t: :king: Don't forget, the DO would be shorter too and thus much handier for BIF.

C'mon Canon - surprise us - 600 f4 DO and 7D MkIII announced at Photokina

Of course, Canon could always do something really funky - like release the 600 f4 DO as an RF mirrorless mount only .... :eek!: :cat:

Chosun :gh:

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Just forget the DO:s...Canon seem to have.

The new Canons look great no doubt. But not even a hard-case is included anymore and the short tripod foot for monopod use is optional...

The difference is 760 grams between Canon and Nikon 600mm/4 (not sure if weights include tripod foot or not). Nikon also have a protective element in the front. Cheaper to replace if you run into a rhino.

3 kg is still a bit too heavy for use without a tripod more than a short period of time. Balance is of course important also, but the Nikon FL lenses are better balanced than predecessors as well.

Not the optimal walkabout lenses yet, but it's getting close. To me the 500/5.6 PF + D500/D7500 are more in the range of what would be comfortable for a day walk.

Vespobuteo said:

Just forget the DO:s...Canon seem to have.

The new Canons look great no doubt. But not even a hard-case is included anymore and the short tripod foot for monopod use is optional...

The difference is 760 grams between Canon and Nikon 600mm/4 (not sure if weights include tripod foot or not). Nikon also have a protective element in the front. Cheaper to replace if you run into a rhino.

3 kg is still a bit too heavy for use without a tripod more than a short period of time. Balance is of course important also, but the Nikon FL lenses are better balanced than predecessors as well.

Not the optimal walkabout lenses yet, but it's getting close. To me the 500/5.6 PF + D500/D7500 are more in the range of what would be comfortable for a day walk.

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For me (especially atm with an old injury aggravated) up to about <2kg of 600mm lens along with a 670-1000gram body is about as much as I could handle as a walk around rig. I find something along the lines of the Canon 300 f2.8 MkII & 2xTC (2.7kg) on a 7D MkII is about as much weight and length as I want to handle, while still giving good pointability for BIF.

Ultimately once back on deck, my max would be sub 3kg short and well balanced 600 f4 lens + that same body weight as before - knocking out at least 10fps and minimum equivalence of 21MP APS-C (so ~45MP or above FF would cut it). This new MkIII 600 f4 L is still 448mm long despite the weight reduction down to 3.06kg .... never say never of course without having tried it, but I think it would still be too physically long (even with the rearward weight shift) for hand holding for me (certainly atm).

The DO /PF solution seems integral to my plans so I haven't given up yet.

To leave a market niche (albeit tiny) unplugged is very anti-Canonical :-O

I think they will continue on with this 600 f4 DO, but a super neat way for them to segment the market would be to make it in RF mount only. They will need long lenses anyway to flesh out the system. Canon will also have to be working on a Sony a9m2/ Nikon Z9 mirrorless competitor in time for the 2020 Tokyo Olympics (along with a IDX MkIII as well to combat Nikon's gestating D6 DSLR flagship)

Never underestimate the Japanese concept of 'face' and corporate competitive pride in all their work and plans, but especially for an event of National historical significance as the Olympics - it will be a huge milestone sitting in the strategic calendars.

So whoever gets their (600 f4 Diffractive) - be it Canon, Nikon, Sony, or perhaps even Panasonic - gets my 10,000 dollars + o :t:

Hurry up!


Oh, and the most important thing for photographing rhinos (especially from on foot) is a silent shutter ! :eek!: front lens be damned! ..... I once got so close to a 1 horned rhino that I couldn't even take a pic ...... got to live another day though - so phew!




Chosun :gh:

Vespobuteo said:

But not even a hard-case is included anymore and the short tripod foot for monopod use is optional...

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Does anyone actually use the hard case? They just take up storage space! I have always maintained a decent camera backpack bag that takes the lens plus a body would be far more use.
It would be better to include a Swiss Arca QR lensfoot too.

Dave Williams said:

Does anyone actually use the hard case? They just take up storage space! I have always maintained a decent camera backpack bag that takes the lens plus a body would be far more use.
It would be better to include a Swiss Arca QR lensfoot too.

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It helps having the hard case when the lens is resold to a new owner. I never used mine, but sent it along. They are bloody expensive as well.

Vespobuteo said:

Nikon will be laughing all the way to the bank when looking at those MTF:s.

:-O

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I can't see how a company like Canon would invest in upgrading their lenses to make their performance worse than the model they are replacing.

An MTF chart is just a guide for me, and nothing beats using gear in the real world rather than a controlled test situation.

mr_birdman said:

It helps having the hard case when the lens is resold to a new owner. I never used mine, but sent it along. They are bloody expensive as well.

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That was exactly what I was driving at, ridiculous that we buy something we never use just to be able to pass it on to someone else who will do exactly the same as I did!

Dave Williams said:

That was exactly what I was driving at, ridiculous that we buy something we never use just to be able to pass it on to someone else who will do exactly the same as I did!

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Very true - just like my unused Canon "Hard Cases". Never used but don't try selling the lens without one!

Dave Williams said:

That was exactly what I was driving at, ridiculous that we buy something we never use just to be able to pass it on to someone else who will do exactly the same as I did!

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LOL ! :-O ..... that gave me a chuckle

Ugh !! 600mm f4 DO ... NOT likely in 2019 ... AND probably in 'R' mount - NOT EF

The latest rumours have a further delay with a Mirrorless 'R' mount twist, and NOT in 2019 pike !! grrr

https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/i...enses-on-the-way-with-a-new-twist…-cr1.36122/

How much can a Koala Bear !?!




Chosun :gh:

R mount 600mm f4 DO ....... ??

This type of 'artificial' market segmentation would be absolutely typical Canon.

It would help flesh out the R lens road map without treading on any of its traditional EF DSLR toes ...... especially with the new MkIII Big Whites now arriving on the scene.

Even with the prospect of a 'home' 2020 Tokyo Olympics looming and the prestige up for grabs there, it looks like the future is going to unfold a lot slower than we had hoped ......




Chosun :gh:

Back to the future ..... ?

Puzzling new patents have appeared for f4, 500mm and 600mm DO lenses. :cat:

These seem to of an optical design philosophy more along the lines of the new MkIII series refractive big whites - ie. they look to be a bit physically longer than the initial patents released, though with a more rearward weight bias of elements.
https://www.canonnews.com/canon-patent-application-500-and-600mm-diffractive-optics
https://www.lens-rumors.com/new-patents-canon-500-and-600mm-diffractive-optics/

With the new refractive 600mm f4 IS III coming in at 3.06kg, one wonders how close to ~2kg Canon will be able to get with these new f4 DO's .........

I just hope the development clock doesn't get set back half a dozen years ! :eek!:

Curiouser and curiouser :cat:



Chosun :gh:

Chosun Juan said:

With the new refractive 600mm f4 IS III coming in at 3.06kg, one wonders how close to ~2kg Canon will be able to get with these new f4 DO's .........

I just hope the development clock doesn't get set back half a dozen years ! :eek!:

Chosun :gh:

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A 600mm/f4 DO that is 1 kg lighter than the current refractive version, that would be expensive, if to be released today, sounds more like the next generation lens.

Vespobuteo said:

A 600mm/f4 DO that is 1 kg lighter than the current refractive version, that would be expensive, if to be released today, sounds more like the next generation lens.

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I don't think DO will ever replace refractive optics, more like a lightweight adjunct to them, since some people will always prefer the particular image characteristics of the refractive lens system.

However, lighter weight is always welcome too, and no doubt a DO offering will be expensive - probably close to the big whites prices.

How light can they get it? that is the question ......
I think to get to 2kg would require lots of fluorite, and a CFRP or Carbotanium chassis - probably with bits of Magnesium Metal Matrix Composite componentry where necessary too - now that would be expensive! Imagine if a 600mm f4 DO using current chassis tech came in at 2.5kg or less ......... there'd be people selling off their children for scientific experiment all over the place! :-O




Chosun :gh:

Chosun Juan said:

I don't think DO will ever replace refractive optics, more like a lightweight adjunct to them, since some people will always prefer the particular image characteristics of the refractive lens system.

However, lighter weight is always welcome too, and no doubt a DO offering will be expensive - probably close to the big whites prices.

How light can they get it? that is the question ......
I think to get to 2kg would require lots of fluorite, and a CFRP or Carbotanium chassis - probably with bits of Magnesium Metal Matrix Composite componentry where necessary too - now that would be expensive! Imagine if a 600mm f4 DO using current chassis tech came in at 2.5kg or less ......... there'd be people selling off their children for scientific experiment all over the place! :-O


Chosun :gh:

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A 600/4 DO will be the new super premium pro lens, made in Japan for sure.
So no china-made-rebated price here, no doubt it will be $120k+.
Refractive version might remain as a "cheaper" alternative.

Vespobuteo said:

A 600/4 DO will be the new super premium pro lens, made in Japan for sure.
So no china-made-rebated price here, no doubt it will be $120k+.
Refractive version might remain as a "cheaper" alternative.

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LOL ! Some doubt ....... no doubt! ||




Chosun :gh:

P.S. That price you quoted may be for the new hand holdable DO 1200 f5.6 version!