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Why aren't Abbe Koenig prisms chosen more often ? (1 Viewer)

Torview

Well-known member
I`v been watching some Goldfinches on my feeders and pondering this question.

They rely on total internal reflection, no need for mirror coating.

They seem to offer higher transmission than a Schmidt Pechan, and don`t need an air gap but are cemented together, surely stronger ?

They allow the objectives some latitude to be spaced wider like a porro aiding a 3d effect.

Some have commented on increased C/A, but the FL surely has the best C/A control around.

Is it they make for a longer body ?
 
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After trawling the Zeiss Forum, it seems the AK prisms do transmit more light than the SP types, even if it's little more than 2% higher. I also gather that Zeiss own the rights to the AK design, inherited from Hensoldt, so I presume other makers would need to pay Zeiss a fee, if Zeiss agreed to grant them licences to use their system. It's been said the AK prism is rather more awkward to incorporate in a binocular body, thus increasing the costs of manufacture. It may be for these two reasons (licence fees and higher costs) that other makers are less attracted to the "AK way of doing things", despite the higher light transmission and reduced CA advantages? Just my gleanings...
 
After trawling the Zeiss Forum, it seems the AK prisms do transmit more light than the SP types, even if it's little more than 2% higher. I also gather that Zeiss own the rights to the AK design, inherited from Hensoldt, so I presume other makers would need to pay Zeiss a fee, if Zeiss agreed to grant them licences to use their system....

I doubt it. Most designs are protected by patents, and when they expire, just like the patents for drugs, anybody can copy the design. The name might be trademarked, in which case they would have to use another name.

A perfect example of the above are the various iconic Rolex designs like the Day-Date and the Submariner. The patents have expired, that's why there are zillions of copies out there and they're 100% legal as long as the manufacturer doesn't put the name Rolex on the dial.

On a related note I'm curious to see what happens when the copyright for the Beatles expires in Europe in a few years time - fifty years I think it is. Our corrupt politicians kow towed to Disney et al when their copyrights were due to expire a few years ago and "graciously" looked out for the voters who put them into office by extending the copyright to 100 years or so.
 
After trawling the Zeiss Forum, it seems the AK prisms do transmit more light than the SP types, even if it's little more than 2% higher. I also gather that Zeiss own the rights to the AK design, inherited from Hensoldt, so I presume other makers would need to pay Zeiss a fee, if Zeiss agreed to grant them licences to use their system. It's been said the AK prism is rather more awkward to incorporate in a binocular body, thus increasing the costs of manufacture. It may be for these two reasons (licence fees and higher costs) that other makers are less attracted to the "AK way of doing things", despite the higher light transmission and reduced CA advantages? Just my gleanings...

James:

You may be right about how it is to incorporate the AB prism in a binocular
design. If you look at the Zeiss models that have the AB, they require more
room in the barrels than others do that use the SP type.

That means Swaro. and Leica, would not go that direction, as the EL and
the UV would not be as slim and why bother, as the handling and other
considerations are very important in their design. Also these makers
would not want to copy Zeiss, as it would infer a better idea.

It seems Zeiss uses it and it is good design, they can boast of the highest transmission in their models.

Jerry
 
I traced the distance covered by a ray through the two types of roof prism. In the SP, the total path is about 2.5 times the length of the prism, while for the AK, it's only 1.5.
The SP folds light more effectively you could say.

So, if an AK and SP binocular have the same body length, the SP has an optical advantage: the objectives have of longer focal length, and smaller aberrations of all kinds. There aren't many complaints about CA in the long body Zeiss Classics, but they occasionally show up for first generation, shorter body Victory models. By introducing ED glass objectives in the FL, Zeiss pretty much solved the problem.

The short focal length objective in a short bodied AK binocular does have an advantage. It allows a wider field of view. That's why FLs can have wide fields even in the big exit pupil models like 7x42 and 8x56. The other makes just can't do it with their SPs.
(Thanks to 8x56 fan and highest guru Henry Link for pointing that out.)
Ron
 
I doubt it. Most designs are protected by patents, and when they expire, just like the patents for drugs, anybody can copy the design. The name might be trademarked, in which case they would have to use another name.

A perfect example of the above are the various iconic Rolex designs like the Day-Date and the Submariner. The patents have expired, that's why there are zillions of copies out there and they're 100% legal as long as the manufacturer doesn't put the name Rolex on the dial.

On a related note I'm curious to see what happens when the copyright for the Beatles expires in Europe in a few years time - fifty years I think it is. Our corrupt politicians kow towed to Disney et al when their copyrights were due to expire a few years ago and "graciously" looked out for the voters who put them into office by extending the copyright to 100 years or so.

In 1986, the year of Haley's Comet, I bought a 9x63 Japanese-made Optolyth clone.

It cost me more than $300, which at the time was a lot of money for binoculars. The dealer said they cost more because of the "special" Abbe-Konig prisms, which made the image brighter, and that was a good thing for detecting comets.

Haley's was a dud during that apparition, it looked like a faint globular cluster through the 9x63s. But the sales of binoculars and telescopes must have been high that year in anticipation.

Optolyth is the only current manufacturer that I know besides Zeiss that uses A/K prisms. The Opts have a long tube design like my 9x63s and the dimpled thick rubber armor.

As far as the Beatles, Michael Jackson bought their catalog in 1985. McCartney and Yoko Ono considered bidding on it, but Yoko didn't think it was worth $20 million. Yoko said, "It's only a Northern song".

Jackson purchased the Beatles catalog for more than double that figure, which is still far less than what the songs are worth today. It was just a "must have".

After 1985, ebony and ivory didn't live together in perfect harmony, and from what I've read, never spoke again. Considering the debt that Michael Jackson left behind, the Beatles songs might be sold off.

Buyers anyone? Bidding starts at $18 million. Bill? Donald? Warren? J.K.? Oprah? Mick?

B.
 
When Zeiss introduced the mid-size Victory FL binoculars, several years ago, they said this:

"Schmidt-Pechan prisms with new dielectric mirror layers as a reverse system – phase-corrected, of course, were used to economise on space and weight. Transmission of these new prisms is over 99%."

So there seems to be very little transmission advantage to Abbe-Koenig prisms. This tallies with separate claims about the efficiency of dielectric mirrors, too.

Either Abbe-Koenig prisms have another optical advantage, or their true advantage is a marketing one, or they have no advantage at all and Zeiss misjudged the market on this issue (and succeeded despite that).

However, Abbe-Koenig prisms do have one notable disadvantage, mentioned by ronh above: they're big. You'd expect that to result in big binoculars, and the full-size Victory FLs are indeed a bit bigger than their nearest competitors.

Still, I can think of some ways to keep the overall binocular short despite using Abbe-Koenig prisms:

  1. Use a telephoto construction for the objective lens. That is, use a positive front component widely separated from a negative rear component (in this case the focusing element or doublet).
  2. Make a faster objective, i.e. of a lower f-number, like f/4 instead of f/5. This reduces the focal length for a given objective diameter. E.g. a 210 mm f/5 lens and a 168 mm f/4 lens have equal diameters (42 mm), but the latter has a shorter light path. Ronh implies Zeiss did this.
  3. Using a shorter focal length objective (2, above) necessitates a more elaborate ocular construction to achieve the desired magnification and eye relief. Thus this necessary sophistication is part and parcel of making a binocular simultaneously compact and practical to use.
The downside to all these techniques is that they compromise the quality of the view, particularly for off-axis subjects. And to the extent that they're nevertheless useful, they're just as applicable to binoculars with Schmidt-Pechan prisms.

The full-size Victory FL binoculars are obviously successful despite these difficulties. But to the observant, there are some signs that Zeiss struggled with these problems:

  1. The eye relief of around 16 mm is on the low side of generous, though Zeiss made the most of it by wasting unusually little space between the lens vertex and its mount, i.e. the last glass surface of the ocular is nearly flush with the eyecup.
  2. Zeiss moved to FL glass before the other alphas, presumably under pressure to offer a tangible advantage.
  3. In addition to FL glass in the objectives, other glasses with anomalous partial dispersion were used in the Victory FL binoculars. (I read this in a press release somewhere.) It wouldn't surprise me if special glasses were used in the ocular lens too. These glass types are generally expensive.
  4. Field curvature and astigmatism are present in abundance, and there's a good dose of rectilinear distortion too.
  5. Zeiss used a plastic body construction to keep the weight of the larger binocular manageable. This plastic wasn't met with universal approval.
  6. The aforementioned larger binocular size should be mentioned separately. Done!
I'm convinced the success of the Victory FL has more to do with the state of its competition (Swarovski, Leica, and Nikon could each be described as lazy a few years ago, for varying reasons) and superb design choices by Zeiss, than any inherent superiority of Abbe-Koenig prisms. The design choices I'm talking about are things like eye relief, size, materials versus weight, off-axis aberration correction, on-axis sharpness, etc. Zeiss walked a perfect tightrope with the Victory FL, making excellent judgments on what the market would accept and playing to their strengths. The designers made good use of what they had: FL glass, great coating technology, access to new plastics, a wide angle of view since a short focal length was forced by the Abbe-Koenig prisms anyway, unusually good central sharpness since low astigmatism/field curvature was always going to be tough, etc. They did a brilliant job.

But I think Zeiss will have a much harder time with the revitalised competition of Swarovision, EDG, and any eventual next-gen Leica. Banking on the trivially higher transmission of Abbe-Koenig prisms in the Victory HT doesn't bode well, in my view.
 
Hello Dorian,

I will not argue with anything you have written. However, one of the most successful binoculars before HD, FL, etc. was the Zeiss ClassiC 7x42 BGT*P. Zeiss made the most of the AK prisms, by making a long binocular with great balance. The rest of the package, including wide FOV, was simply a masterpiece of design.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :hi:
 
I'm actually surprised that with today's technology, AK prisms almost appear to be a drawback.
 
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Thanks Dorian

Evidently you have a good knowledge of optics, a great post.

Just a feeling from me but I reckon the size and length of the forthcoming HT makes it look like the venerable classic 7x42 BGT*P.
 
Dorian,
Thanks for your thoughful and enjoyable analysis. You bring up a good point: the numbers don't indicate an appreciable brightness advantage with AKs any more. And yet Zeiss continues to be the brightest roof, and promises even more transmission to come with the HT. Whatever is going on, the AK is part of the myth.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying but it seems to me that the AK choice continues to define Zeiss, by both strengths (high transmission maybe, and wide field of view) and weaknesses (long bodies, poor off axis performance). Love em or hate em, Zeiss is different.
Ron
 
For me a long body is not a disadvantage with binoculars. Quite the contrary, this could provide (big) hands more space to find the best fitting position and a well balanced grip. Perhaps, a construction with longer focal length of the objectives could allow a better correction of off axis aberrations, too.

Steve
 
....So there seems to be very little transmission advantage to Abbe-Koenig prisms. This tallies with separate claims about the efficiency of dielectric mirrors, too.

Either Abbe-Koenig prisms have another optical advantage, or their true advantage is a marketing one, or they have no advantage at all and Zeiss misjudged the market on this issue (and succeeded despite that).

However, Abbe-Koenig prisms do have one notable disadvantage, mentioned by ronh above: they're big. You'd expect that to result in big binoculars, and the full-size Victory FLs are indeed a bit bigger than their nearest competitors....

Thanks for the informative post. The fact that the Zeiss AK FL's have held up so well in the long term is a testament to their excellent design.

This thread reminds me of my youth many moons ago when I sold high-end stereo for a short while. People had a hard time understanding the fact that a theoretically superlative design parameter doesn't necessarily translate into a superior product. Vacuum tubes vs transistors, class A vs class AB, balanced vs unbalanced outputs etc. The fact is that most successful products - products known to be outstanding in their various fields - be it binoculars, stereo etc, are the result of intelligent compromises superbly executed.

Sadly, too often I have seen many products that should have been outstanding because of their intelligent design parameters, and sometimes even with outstanding components, fall flat due to poor execution. As an example, too many computers fall into the latter category.

IMHO, the bottom line is that it's an exercise in futility to focus on only one aspect of the design, unless you're the designer trying to improve that particular item. An outstanding design with intelligent compromises usually results in a superior product most of the time.
 
When Zeiss introduced the mid-size Victory FL binoculars, several years ago, they said this:

"Schmidt-Pechan prisms with new dielectric mirror layers as a reverse system – phase-corrected, of course, were used to economise on space and weight. Transmission of these new prisms is over 99%."

So there seems to be very little transmission advantage to Abbe-Koenig prisms. This tallies with separate claims about the efficiency of dielectric mirrors, too.

Either Abbe-Koenig prisms have another optical advantage, or their true advantage is a marketing one, or they have no advantage at all and Zeiss misjudged the market on this issue (and succeeded despite that).

However, Abbe-Koenig prisms do have one notable disadvantage, mentioned by ronh above: they're big. You'd expect that to result in big binoculars, and the full-size Victory FLs are indeed a bit bigger than their nearest competitors.

Still, I can think of some ways to keep the overall binocular short despite using Abbe-Koenig prisms:

  1. Use a telephoto construction for the objective lens. That is, use a positive front component widely separated from a negative rear component (in this case the focusing element or doublet).
  2. Make a faster objective, i.e. of a lower f-number, like f/4 instead of f/5. This reduces the focal length for a given objective diameter. E.g. a 210 mm f/5 lens and a 168 mm f/4 lens have equal diameters (42 mm), but the latter has a shorter light path. Ronh implies Zeiss did this.
  3. Using a shorter focal length objective (2, above) necessitates a more elaborate ocular construction to achieve the desired magnification and eye relief. Thus this necessary sophistication is part and parcel of making a binocular simultaneously compact and practical to use.
The downside to all these techniques is that they compromise the quality of the view, particularly for off-axis subjects. And to the extent that they're nevertheless useful, they're just as applicable to binoculars with Schmidt-Pechan prisms.

The full-size Victory FL binoculars are obviously successful despite these difficulties. But to the observant, there are some signs that Zeiss struggled with these problems:

  1. The eye relief of around 16 mm is on the low side of generous, though Zeiss made the most of it by wasting unusually little space between the lens vertex and its mount, i.e. the last glass surface of the ocular is nearly flush with the eyecup.
  2. Zeiss moved to FL glass before the other alphas, presumably under pressure to offer a tangible advantage.
  3. In addition to FL glass in the objectives, other glasses with anomalous partial dispersion were used in the Victory FL binoculars. (I read this in a press release somewhere.) It wouldn't surprise me if special glasses were used in the ocular lens too. These glass types are generally expensive.
  4. Field curvature and astigmatism are present in abundance, and there's a good dose of rectilinear distortion too.
  5. Zeiss used a plastic body construction to keep the weight of the larger binocular manageable. This plastic wasn't met with universal approval.
  6. The aforementioned larger binocular size should be mentioned separately. Done!
I'm convinced the success of the Victory FL has more to do with the state of its competition (Swarovski, Leica, and Nikon could each be described as lazy a few years ago, for varying reasons) and superb design choices by Zeiss, than any inherent superiority of Abbe-Koenig prisms. The design choices I'm talking about are things like eye relief, size, materials versus weight, off-axis aberration correction, on-axis sharpness, etc. Zeiss walked a perfect tightrope with the Victory FL, making excellent judgments on what the market would accept and playing to their strengths. The designers made good use of what they had: FL glass, great coating technology, access to new plastics, a wide angle of view since a short focal length was forced by the Abbe-Koenig prisms anyway, unusually good central sharpness since low astigmatism/field curvature was always going to be tough, etc. They did a brilliant job.

But I think Zeiss will have a much harder time with the revitalised competition of Swarovision, EDG, and any eventual next-gen Leica. Banking on the trivially higher transmission of Abbe-Koenig prisms in the Victory HT doesn't bode well, in my view.

Dorian,

I'll add my kudos to the pat-on-the-back parade. I enjoyed reading your post, it had some good insights, though I can't speak to the technical suggestions you made about how to better accommodate A/K prisms; however, as you implied in your last sentence, they might be overcome by events at this point now that dielectric coatings are available on S/P prisms.

I think Zeiss getting out ahead has been what's expected from the company after its introduction of phase coatings. But we should keep in mind that even though they have made the classic roof of all times it seems, as Arthur pointed out, when you add up the number of roof models they have offered over the past three decades, it hasn't exactly been an avalanche of products like say, Nikon, which probably has had more versions of the Monarch than Zeiss has had total roof model (hyperbole, but a point well taken, I think, being that Zeiss has rode on a wave of success with just a few excellent roofs).

Zeiss initially developed its good reputation for its excellent porros, though only the 7x50 B/GAs still lives on. I've wondered which demographic/hobbyist buys these IF 7x50 porros in enough quantities as to justify continued production while other great porros from Zeiss, Nikon, B&L/Bushnell, Swift, etc. have gone the way of the dinosaur? How did this lone species survive the onslaught of the roof invasion?

Hunters? That's the group apparently sustaining the lone Zeiss ClassiC - 8x56 B/GA. I'd like to see the 7x42 B/GA resurrected and updated but would there be as many birders who would buy it as there are hunters who buy the 8x56s? I would have to guess not, or Zeiss would have already brought it back.

Zeiss took a risk making an alpha with a fiber reinforced polycarbonate body. "Lidder is bedder," but the FLs have had their share of critics because of the "plasticy" body, not just because of the feel but also a lack of confidence in its durability and robustness. What Zeiss needed was for the guys who ran over the Steiners to rip some rubber on the FLs. :)

I know there were complaints about the Night Owls' weight but they went from one extreme to the other. That was a bold move and despite the critics, most people seemed to accept the change over to polycarbonate once they got used to it.

Still, an FL "run over video" might have quickened the FL's acceptance, particularly in the hunting community, where "ruggedness is next to Godliness". Perhaps this might be why Zeiss went out of its way to market the HT to hunters.

The "brilliant" design choice" I have always questioned in the FL is Zeiss' postulate that you need to sacrifice edge performance to get better centerfield performance. I've never seen that claim substantiated, and as an adherer to the scientific method uber alles I'm surprised that Ed would swallow that potential malarkey without hard evidence to back it up. Yet, not a peep about that.

If a miracle occurred <here>, I might be able to afford an HT, but from what I've read so far, I don't know if I would like it even if I did hit the Power Ball.

When I first saw the photos, I really didn't know what to make of it. It was as if ZR had shrunken the double open bridge of its 7x36 ED2 into one bridge. And what about that half on, half off rubber armoring? Sort of like the EDG I.

Then again, I didn't know what to make of the original Victory, with it's odd triangular shape. It still looks a bit odd to me, but I'm already warming up to the HT body design.

After Steve Ingraham's comment about the Victory I's "rubber tire" smell and "meat hook" strap lugs," I lost some enthusiasm. Then came the reports of excessive CA, and it never made my Wish List though the 7x42 ClassiC remains on it.

It will be interesting to see if Zeiss retains the optical characteristics of the FL or goes another way. Sometimes "progress for progress sake" isn't the best path. Sometimes in moving ahead too quickly, you leave something good behind.

I'm hoping that the HT's optical design will be more like the Classic than the FLs, that is, ample sweet spot with gradual fall off at the edges and low astigmatism and just a bit of field curvature, less than the Classics.

One thing about Zeiss that you rarely see from Leica and Swarovski is some really nice discounts, not half price discounts like Nikon, but there have been some nice prices on FLs, particularly the 8x32 and 10x32 models.

If the HT does depart from the FL optical design, I think you will see some division btwn the FL crowd and the new adopters initially, and if stores offer trade-ins for HTs like they are doing for the SV ELs, I can imagine some FL owner uttering those famous words: "You'll have to pry it from my cold, dead hands!" :)

Well, I think we can at least be glad for one thing, alphas don't change designs every four years like automakers.

Brock
 
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It wasn't so long ago that there was a thread where Zeiss themselves were reported to have found that the AK prisms achieved a 2% higher transmission compared to SP prisms.

Also, I can see the marketing advantages in trying to keep the short focal lengths, but aren't there are also optical advantages to longer focal lengths which have also been discussed elsewhere?

So the prospect of comparatively long focal length binocular in a more ergonomic body with AK combined with new HT glass could be an exciting prospect given that even the latest competition still appears to be hovering around the 88-92% transmission mark. Who knows...?
 
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When Zeiss introduced the mid-size Victory FL binoculars, several years ago, they said this:

"Schmidt-Pechan prisms with new dielectric mirror layers as a reverse system – phase-corrected, of course, were used to economise on space and weight. Transmission of these new prisms is over 99%."

So there seems to be very little transmission advantage to Abbe-Koenig prisms. This tallies with separate claims about the efficiency of dielectric mirrors, too....

It wasn't so long ago that there was a thread where Zeiss themselves were reported to have found that the AK prisms achieved a 2% higher transmission compared to SP prisms.
...

So according to Zeiss the Schmidt-Pechan prisms have a transmission of (over) 99% and the Abbe-Koenig prisms, eeeh... 101%?:eek!:

:-O
 
After Steve Ingraham's comment about the Victory I's "rubber tire" smell and "meat hook" strap lugs," I lost some enthusiasm. Then came the reports of excessive CA, and it never made my Wish List though the 7x42 ClassiC remains on it.

I got one of the first Victory I's immediately after it came out, and I always though Ingraham's comments were rather unfair. "Rubber tire smell"? Nonsense. The strap lugs were changed by Zeiss for free after they changed the design. Not that the strap lugs caused any trouble, a friend of mine has been using his pair with the old strap lugs for well over a decade by now, on a daily basis. No problems at all. Mind you, those comments seem to have got Ingraham a job with Zeiss ...

The reports of excessive CA, well, they were just that. Reports. Sure, the Victory I had some CA, but in my opinion (and after some rather careful comparisons) less than the Leica Trinovid 8x42 and especially the 10x42. I think it's at about the same level as the CA of the 10x40 Classic. Not many people complained about that or the Leica as far as I remember. Sure, the FL is better, but it really should be. After all, it's a more recent design.

Hermann
 
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