porro or roof? (1 Viewer)

mike60 said:

It was discovery by experience in a variety of situations rather than instant...... for me anyway. I would certainly not want them as my only bins...they arent perfect, but i am even growing to like their little 'flaws'. It all adds to their mystique

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Thanks, Mike. I agree that the qualities of Nikon optics grow on you. Although my ED82 scope is still in for repair (and I am becoming rather unhappy about the delay at Nikon UK!)... the sheer natural or faithful quality of its image is what grows on you so much over time.

I am now using a Zeiss 85T* and that does not have quite the same faithful quality to its image but... the qualities of that scope have grown over time, too. Its zoom eyepiece offers so much more fov than either the Nikon or my son's Swaro that I now feel, as a birding optic, it is truly something special. If Nikon could produce a wider angled zoom, they would have a winner. It's odd how these things are not always apparent on first testing.

Depth of Field (The basics).
Dependant on the magnification and the ability of the observers eyes to close focus (tech term: accommodation). Depth of Field without accommodation and focus set to infinity is only dependant on the magnification of the binocular.
Depth of Field with accommodation and focus set to infinity is dependant on the magnification of the binocular and the ability (dpt) of the observers eyes to close focus, and at a given focusing distance.

I recently looked through Leica roofs, swaro porros, some nikon porros (non se's, but compact 30mm), and swaro el 10 x 42.

The nikon's beat the leica roofs and swaro porros, but the swaro roofs "outshone" the nikons. Sharper, with more detail on a sign I was reading across the street. The nikons were getting there, the swaros went further. Plus, The swaro els were the only ones I could stand handling.


So I ended up getting swaro els (8.5 x 42). I wondered what I was missing in the Nikon SEs, but I've never had a chance to look through them or handle them. And then the rain came. We've had a ton of rain lately, and it's nice to go out in it without worrying about damaging the binoculars, so I'm glad I got roofs, since I'll be able to bird on more rainy days.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Nikon ses are better optically, I think the DOF o porros is better than roofs, but for now the swaros are everything that I need. I'll live with less DOF, still a great view, and fantastic handling.

An important question to ask is: "do I have the binoculars I need", not "are there better binoculars out there?"

I'm with mr red,

Is has rained all spring here in Minnesota, creeks are still rising and I'm loving it. I stay and bird while my dad runs for shelter. My dad has Nikon SEs (the best optics I have ever looked through BTW) and I have the Audubon Equinox bins. More than once I have been out, bins on the outside of my rainwear, when it poured and then let up, allowing me great looks at birds that are normally high in the trees.

It's also nice to come home after driving miles of dusty dirt roads and rinse the bins under the tap and set them off to dry.

For me, part of the fun is just being there, but if my equipment doesn't work, I'm not really there. I will never buy a non-waterproof/fogging set of bins again and will accept the lack of image quality in return for the extra field time and peace of mind that this provides.

Besides, I can't afford to spend money on something I'm too worried to use and leave at home.

Steve-O

mr red said:

An important question to ask is: "do I have the binoculars I need", not "are there better binoculars out there?"

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How do you know which cap fits you best if you haven't tried them all?

Leif said:

In simple terms:

Porros tend to be more bulky...Because the objectives are further apart, the image has a strong 3D feel, but focussing on nearby objects can be hard. The near focus distance is often quite large. The eye tubes tend to be rubber which are inconvenient to use.

Roof prism binoculars tend to be more compact, less bulky, expensive to make due to high tolerances on the prisms, and the need for phase and mirror coatings on the prisms. They tend to use internal focussing which is easier to waterproof. Because the objectives are close, the image does not have such a strong 3D feel, but focussing on nearby objects is easier. The near focus distance is often quite small. The eye tubes tend to be screw-in screw-out which are convenient in use.

So in brief, the typical porro prism binocular is cheaper for a given optical quality, is not waterproof, does not focus very close and is somewhat bulky and thus less comfortable to hold. ..

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The compact 8x25 Porros are quite small, as the lenses look out from the middle. Also no 3D effect and they focus very close.

I tend not to look at the big and bulky porros but I quite like the small ones. My bigger binoculars are roof prism and cost more than the compact porros.

Really cheap 8x21 roof prism binoculars work if you have nothing else, but the image quality is pretty bad in most Bushnells and Simmons etc.

I seem to have very similar porros and roofs. I never had the two pairs with me at the same time before. Because they are both 10x, just never thought o compare.

Minolta Compact II 10x25L with 5.6 deg field of view.
Nikon Sporter I 10x36 5.6deg field of view.

The Minoltas, my wife's, need to have the eye cups screwed in slightly to get that field of view. Otherwise they do the same, as looking at a fence across a field and counting how many segments are in view.

I prefer the Nikons, the more expensive of the two, and heavier. For things far away, they seem to show more detail than the Minoltas. For birds in a nest right above me, the two were quite similar. I have not tested them together at sunset yet.

For new ones, I now have my eye on a 9x25 Nikon compact porro, which would give me a quality and bigger FOV. Need to save up $109 for it.

The Nikon Sporters are quite rugged and at least water resistant, so they will be used in rainy weather.

Jay Turberville said:

A few weeks ago I read the book, "Kingbird Highway" by Ken Kaufman. Ken spent a year hitching rides all over North America. He was attempting to set a record or recorded sightings in a year and had an absurdly small budget. As I recall, he had an inexpensive pair of department store porros that he had at one time painted gold for some reason when he was even younger.

Only the individual can truly answer what is the appropriate gear and whether it is worth the price. I'm sure its useful to hear other people's thoughts and their reasons for their choices, but that only goes so far. There are no clearly right answers.

Its a world of compromises and we have to pick those compromises that we think will work best for us. Money spent on one thing is money not available for another. And since we are all in different situations (financially and otherwise) to some degree, I think its pretty nifty that we live in a world where you can actually buy a functional pair of binoculars for around $20 - or you can easily spend 30 times that much for a pair that is an optical marvel. That's pretty cool.

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I am so glad that I found this one as I was starting to feel like a 'cheap skate' as upto now I only have a really dodgy pair of bins that my husband found!!! I an currently looking for a 'budget' pair that I can afford to get with my birthday money.

I had a look on the RSPB website and thought the NIKON 8X25 Travelite 5 looked ok and affordable to me, but then I did a comparison on the Jessops website and found some called CENTON 10X25 MCF M/C which had more features and a 10 year guarantee for only 34.90!!!

I am confused but still skint!!! Any advice.

P.S. I am still pretty much a garden birder and a learner but as the kids get less dependant I intend to go a wandering :bounce:

I can only hope that Ken Kaufman's book keeps coming up in as many threads as possible. It's that good. Along that line (his gold binos) whenever possible, check out the Minolta Activa 8 X 40 Water Proof - Fog Proof Binoculars which are about $140.00 in the States. Many of my friends who are the best birders I'll ever know have them. #1 in Consumer Reports magazine (although they didn't test expensive glass). Rugged, big eye pieces, bright, crystal clear, and very affordable. I know 140 dollars is a good amount of money, but it's not 1400. Just a thought..................

Janshorty said:

I am so glad that I found this one as I was starting to feel like a 'cheap skate' as upto now I only have a really dodgy pair of bins that my husband found!!! I an currently looking for a 'budget' pair that I can afford to get with my birthday money.

I had a look on the RSPB website and thought the NIKON 8X25 Travelite 5 looked ok and affordable to me, but then I did a comparison on the Jessops website and found some called CENTON 10X25 MCF M/C which had more features and a 10 year guarantee for only 34.90!!!

I am confused but still skint!!! Any advice.

P.S. I am still pretty much a garden birder and a learner but as the kids get less dependant I intend to go a wandering :bounce:

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Jan - have a look on ebay, see what you can afford and then come back here and get opinions from the guys in the know on which to bid for.

You'll be amazed at what you can afford.

Janshorty said:

I am so glad that I found this one as I was starting to feel like a 'cheap skate' as upto now I only have a really dodgy pair of bins that my husband found!!! I an currently looking for a 'budget' pair that I can afford to get with my birthday money.

I had a look on the RSPB website and thought the NIKON 8X25 Travelite 5 looked ok and affordable to me, but then I did a comparison on the Jessops website and found some called CENTON 10X25 MCF M/C which had more features and a 10 year guarantee for only 34.90!!!

I am confused but still skint!!! Any advice.

P.S. I am still pretty much a garden birder and a learner but as the kids get less dependant I intend to go a wandering :bounce:

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Jan

like anything in life you get what you pay for. But there are some real bargains around. Warehouseexpress do some special offers.

For example the Nikon Sporters 1 8x36 are reduced from £199 to £99 and are very highly regarded by forum members. You getting a good bin for that money.

You can get Opticron Countryman 8x42 for £65 (reduced from about £130). I'd expect they'd outperform any pocket bins at a similar price.

The Bushnell H20 8x32 bins are £79 for the porro (trad) bins and £89 for the roofs. The porros imparticualr have been well reviewed.

I think you pay £7 postage. Small pocket bins are all well and good but the above are similar to the travelites (£85 or such aren't they) price wise and will outperform them.

The Nikons are worth that bit extra but any of the above should be worth buying. Hope that helps.

Janshorty said:

I am so glad that I found this one as I was starting to feel like a 'cheap skate' as upto now I only have a really dodgy pair of bins that my husband found!!! I an currently looking for a 'budget' pair that I can afford to get with my birthday money.

I had a look on the RSPB website and thought the NIKON 8X25 Travelite 5 looked ok and affordable to me, but then I did a comparison on the Jessops website and found some called CENTON 10X25 MCF M/C which had more features and a 10 year guarantee for only 34.90!!!

I am confused but still skint!!! Any advice.

P.S. I am still pretty much a garden birder and a learner but as the kids get less dependant I intend to go a wandering :bounce:

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Jan

I doubt the Centons will be up to it. Jessops make good gear but I have not liked their bins. For birding a pair of bins need to offer a bright and wide image.

A good site to check out is www.warehouseexpress.com. They have extra special offers on the following models that will suit you down to the ground. The models are probably about to be discontinued, hence the lower price:

Bushnell Birder 8x40 @ £39-00
This one is especially light in weight and has a wide view. Bushnell are a respected manufacturer and these are designed for birding. They focus quite closely but not as close as more expensive makes (about 15 feet).


If you could push to £99-00, then the Nikon 8x36 Sporters are unsurpassed at the price - a top notch make that so many on this site have bought. 8x is the magnification - and this is spot on for your needs; "36" refers to the width of the front lens in millimetres. My wife uses these and they are just so very easy to look through. They focus very closely (down to less than 9 feet) and are unsurpassed to use if you wear specs; they are also showerproof. We paid twice this price three years ago. This company allow return if unhappy with no questions asked.

If money really is tight, and you don't mind buying a less well known make but one that has had a couple of people on this site raving about them, then the following are less than £28-00:

http://www.7dayshop.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=777_3_307&products_id=90464

These bins are fully waterproof and 10x42 which is the best they do on this site for birding. I would normally suggest 7x / 8x for garden use especially, but this particular model is such a low price. The supplier, 7dayshop, is well respected and dependable and offer a genuine no-questions-asked 14-day return offer if you're not completely happy. Frankly, at this price and from comments posted here before, I doubt you can go wrong - but the above makes are more well known. It's up to you. I have certainly bought quite a bit of stuff from 7dayshop and can say their service is very good. It also takes them about 7 days to deliver, too. (They do offer a more "standard" 10x42, also - but they are quite heavy. The above at 660g will be more comfortable to hold.).

If I were you, I would probably save up and get the Nikon Sporters as they really are a brilliant binocular at a genuinely low price. How long they will remain in stock, I do not know - but you could phone and ask. The company are well known for their helpfulness. But... if price was all for me, then the Bushnells would be my second choice. I just like to buy a well known brand when it comes to optics.

Jan you could try a pair of Minolta 7x35 Active binoculars £49 well under half price a real bargain at this price try www.unbeatable .co.uk they are a camera shop in Crawley and they were offering these binoculars a month or so back. their has been another thead about these binoculars so if you check through you should find it good luck

Also as Pete and Steve suggest Nikon 8x36 Spoertstar @ £99 from Warehouse express are a bargain

Hi Graham - hope you're well! Your link was mistyped and wouldn't connect: www.unbeatable.co.uk

Thanks Steve. Ive just checked their site and they are now advertising 7x35 binoculars £35 dont know if they are the Actives,if so they have got even cheaper.