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More alarmism 'Ecological grief':Greenland residents traumatised by climate emergency

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Old Monday 12th August 2019, 22:57   #1
litebeam
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More alarmism 'Ecological grief':Greenland residents traumatised by climate emergency

"The climate crisis is causing unprecedented levels of stress and anxiety to people in Greenland who are struggling to reconcile the traumatic impact of global heating with their traditional way of life."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/to...ncy/ar-AAFGY47


I read this piece and couldn't help but think of the "unprecendented stress and anxiety" of the Vikings who sought an agricultural life in Greenland in 900 A.D., only to be essentially 'frozen out' in only a few hundred years.

Maybe someone should inform today's Greenlanders of this dilemma. The cold will return. Although none of us may be here for it's arrival.

"We should remember, that the Earth’s coldest periods have usually followed excessive warmth. Such was the case when our planet moved from the Medieval Warm Period between 900 and 1300 A.D. to the sudden “Little Ice Age,” which peaked in the 17th Century. Since 2,500 B.C., there have been at least 78 major climate changes worldwide, including two major changes in just the past 40 years."

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/1000-...nd-david-moore

I'm sure the authors/contributors of this last piece (Wheeler, Harris et al.) will be roundly attacked by 'experts' here soon.

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Old Tuesday 13th August 2019, 00:38   #2
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. . .Maybe someone should inform today's Greenlanders of this dilemma*. The cold will return. Although none of us may be here for it's arrival.
That, I’m sure, will be of great comfort to them. . ..
—————————————————————————————-
*this dilemma”. Makes no sense here. How about “these facts”, instead?

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I'm sure the authors/contributors of this last piece (Wheeler, Harris et al.) will be roundly attacked by 'experts' here.
Ending with your customary whine, I see. What a shame, you were doing so well up to now. . ..
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Old Tuesday 13th August 2019, 01:22   #3
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*Power yawn*
Predictable dodge of the issue. Is it your opinion then that current-day Greenlanders are the first to experience such dramatic climate change? Or is it possible that such 'anomalies could indeed be cyclic?

I'll won't wait for your answer, I know better that to expect a cogent discourse from you.
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Old Tuesday 13th August 2019, 03:29   #4
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*Power yawn*
Predictable dodge of the issue. Is it your opinion then that current-day Greenlanders are the first to experience such dramatic climate change? Or is it possible that such 'anomalies could indeed be cyclic?
"Events" rather than "anomalies" would be the better word choice here. If something is "cyclic", it can hardly also be "anomalous".

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I'll won't wait for your answer, I know better that to expect a cogent discourse from you.
Hooray! If nobody else joins in that would be the end of the thread then. . ..

"Cogent"' is ok but "reply" would be much better than "discourse".
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Old Tuesday 13th August 2019, 04:27   #5
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Old Tuesday 13th August 2019, 06:34   #6
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"Events" rather than "anomalies" would be the better word choice here. If something is "cyclic", it can hardly also be "anomalous".



Hooray! If nobody else joins in that would be the end of the thread then. . ..

"Cogent"' is ok but "reply" would be much better than "discourse".
Endless word game nonsense.
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Old Tuesday 13th August 2019, 06:47   #7
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Endless word game nonsense.
Dammit, you’re back! You lied to us. . ..
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Old Tuesday 13th August 2019, 09:52   #8
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It's a marketing scheme!

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/n...and-name-swap/

The transition from Icelandic monochrome winter to super-green summer is pretty incredible. You can literally see the country change colour from south to north on a day-by-day basis.

Nons(ci)ense in the OP aside, it does raise an interesting point that I'm curious to hear you opinion on Chosun - for a culture that is more strongly rooted in nature than our Western one I presume there is a stronger attachment to the ecological status quo, or in other words a narrower tolerance (expressed culturally/emotionally). Would you agree with that? And if so, how does 'positive' change impact? One could argue that a warmer climate in Greenland is a good thing (Russian scientists allegedly considered global warming a positive thing back in the day) - but the impact on the Inuit's traditional lifestyle is significant. And as the article points out not necessarily experienced as a positive thing.
I know very little about this but am curious to hear your thoughts.
Thanks,
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Old Tuesday 13th August 2019, 11:51   #9
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Since I never hung around those corners of the forum before, I am genuinely interested: are you a genuine birder who happens to be a climate denier (which I can see happening despite it being somewhat unlikely considering that birding is likely to expose a person to science eventually), or are you a denier first who actively looks up communities to push their views in?
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Old Tuesday 13th August 2019, 12:55   #10
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Since I never hung around those corners of the forum before, I am genuinely interested: are you a genuine birder who happens to be a climate denier (which I can see happening despite it being somewhat unlikely considering that birding is likely to expose a person to science eventually), or are you a denier first who actively looks up communities to push their views in?
There is a fairly large contingent of hunters/optics geeks predominantly of a right leaning persuasion which also use this forum. Luckily, there is also a large proportion of rational and scientifically literate birders/conservationists (despite being a conservation professional, I wouldn't include myself within this category, as much of it is beyond me!) to allow debate - the right love to think that their free speech is being shut down, when often it is the presentation of factual information to countenance their points which is the source of their frustration.

In reply to the OP, there are plenty of examples of how anthropogenic activities are impacting the natural world and climate. For example, check out the IPCC 2014 report highlighting how climate change is already affecting developing countries.

Sadly with the increase in populism, many countries which hold a high proportion of important ecological systems are at risk e.g. Bolsonaro destroying the Amazon, Trump downgrading protection status of endangered species, Duterte overseeing the highest murder rate for environmental activists globally etc... and of course we have more than our fair share of environmental issues in the UK!
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Old Tuesday 13th August 2019, 16:04   #11
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Ah yes, more stonewalling, name-calling, adhom BS.
Trump, Duterte, right leaning hunter-geeks, and 'marketing schemes' aside...not a single reply to my posting regarding Greenland and the cyclic nature of climate change there.

Not one person willing to a address that this 'unprecedented' event has happened in the past and long before the possibility of AGW existed.
Pawns.
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Old Tuesday 13th August 2019, 16:23   #12
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Pawns.
Pawns? Pawns of what, Big Science?
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Old Tuesday 13th August 2019, 16:31   #13
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“Oh Greenland is a dreadful place
A land that's never green
Where the cold winds blow and the whale fish go
And the daylight's seldom seen brave boys
And the daylight's seldom seen.”
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Old Tuesday 13th August 2019, 19:05   #14
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Not one person willing to a address that this 'unprecedented' event has happened in the past and long before the possibility of AGW existed.
Pawns.
You appreciate the guy you linked to literally is in oil & gas right? Pawn & kettle...

But anyway, you want science? I posted this last month but in the other thread but you ignored it. Please read the actual papers. I'm happy to provide geological context or explain the bits you don't understand.

Further coverage on the BBC today: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-49086783

Note that the three papers are free to read (but not download) on the NPG website:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1401-2.epdf
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41561-019-0400-0.epdf
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41561-019-0402-y.epdf
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Old Tuesday 13th August 2019, 20:23   #15
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You appreciate the guy you linked to literally is in oil & gas right? Pawn & kettle...

But anyway, you want science? I posted this last month but in the other thread but you ignored it. Please read the actual papers. I'm happy to provide geological context or explain the bits you don't understand.

Further coverage on the BBC today: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-49086783

Note that the three papers are free to read (but not download) on the NPG website:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1401-2.epdf
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41561-019-0400-0.epdf
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41561-019-0402-y.epdf
Good work, Joost. Except (perhaps) for a perfunctory “don't-have-time-at-the-moment-but will-read-them-when I do”, a 3-gun salvo like that should scare off our rancher friend for a good long time.
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Old Tuesday 13th August 2019, 20:32   #16
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I'd much prefer actual engagement with the science to be honest.
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Old Tuesday 13th August 2019, 20:44   #17
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Pawns? Pawns of what, Big Science?
Oh my this is hilarious, I'll save this quote for later.
The thread and position is nonsense of course, but such is the case with any climate change denial.

And the idea that climate change is cyclical is valid, but dig into the science regarding rates of change, etc. It's really not hard to find good science about it.

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Old Tuesday 13th August 2019, 21:04   #18
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I'd much prefer actual engagement with the science to be honest.
Surely you’ve had enough experience with litebeam by now to realize that will never happen?
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Old Wednesday 14th August 2019, 01:54   #19
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Time for a little perspective sub specie aeternitatis. A very entertaining article by a popular science writer.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...pocene/595795/
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Old Wednesday 14th August 2019, 08:46   #20
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Ah yes, more stonewalling, name-calling, adhom BS.
Trump, Duterte, right leaning hunter-geeks, and 'marketing schemes' aside...not a single reply to my posting regarding Greenland and the cyclic nature of climate change there.

Not one person willing to a address that this 'unprecedented' event has happened in the past and long before the possibility of AGW existed.
Pawns.
So let me put this straight: you start a thread with a post which is in itself formulated in a know-it-all, condescending fashion and then feel somehow offended when people don't respond with kindness and willingness to engage in fair discussion? Are you genuinely that impervious to irony, or is this just your communication strategy?

You know, it's getting old. And it's not only the climate change question, it's a huge assortment of topics. People like you come with specific cherry-picked arguments, obscure sources, rush conclusions and derogatory wording (here, you really did not hold yourself using "alarmism" already on the topic) and if people are not willing to engage with all that, they declare victory, what really is the point of this at all? You aren't gonna convince anyone sane about anything with this kind of posting and you make it clear that you aren't even looking for your views to be challenged, so really, why?

As to the overall topic where the thread is going, I personally can't give a rat's ass about the fate of humanity as a whole and I do not care what happens on geological timescales. I am not even that moved by extinction of species - I do sometimes even drive emotionally loaded "conservationists" crazy with that heresy, but I am pretty sure that a particular animal is fully oblivious to the fate of its species as a whole. I do, however, care for people - and to a slightly lesser extent for animals - as in the collection of individuals and specimen that happens to be alive in this unfortunate time and we are clearly and undoubtedly ******* up things for them, on timescales of decades, so why not try to do something about it?
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Old Wednesday 14th August 2019, 18:48   #21
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Ah yes, more stonewalling, name-calling, adhom BS.
Trump, Duterte, right leaning hunter-geeks, and 'marketing schemes' aside...not a single reply to my posting regarding Greenland and the cyclic nature of climate change there.

Not one person willing to a address that this 'unprecedented' event has happened in the past and long before the possibility of AGW existed.
Pawns.
Mainly people don't respond, I suspect, because all of this has been gone over time and time again and all the denial tropes have been thoroughly debunked. I'm not willing to waste my time arguing with you. But, I will point out that no-one who accepts the findings of climate scientists would suggest that the climate hasn't changed in the past. The point is that the levels of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases are at unprecedented levels and, additionally, it is the rate of change which is the real problem for species as they are unable to adapt or shift to compensate. Goodbye.
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Old Wednesday 14th August 2019, 18:55   #22
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Bored, checking on new posts, and ran into this old thread (which to my surprised, I participated in)...interesting that it's still going, if "round and round" counts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by opisska View Post
So let me put this straight: you start a thread with a post which is in itself formulated in a know-it-all, condescending fashion and then feel somehow offended when people don't respond with kindness and willingness to engage in fair discussion? Are you genuinely that impervious to irony, or is this just your communication strategy?

You know, it's getting old. And it's not only the climate change question, it's a huge assortment of topics. People like you come with specific cherry-picked arguments, obscure sources, rush conclusions and derogatory wording (here, you really did not hold yourself using "alarmism" already on the topic) and if people are not willing to engage with all that, they declare victory, what really is the point of this at all? You aren't gonna convince anyone sane about anything with this kind of posting and you make it clear that you aren't even looking for your views to be challenged, so really, why?
Sounds like a good description of many of the more obnoxious "regulars." We're only missing one other person in this thread to make it a full house of the usual provocateurs.

Quote:
As to the overall topic where the thread is going, I personally can't give a rat's ass about the fate of humanity as a whole and I do not care what happens on geological timescales. I am not even that moved by extinction of species - I do sometimes even drive emotionally loaded "conservationists" crazy with that heresy, but I am pretty sure that a particular animal is fully oblivious to the fate of its species as a whole. I do, however, care for people - and to a slightly lesser extent for animals - as in the collection of individuals and specimen that happens to be alive in this unfortunate time and we are clearly and undoubtedly ******* up things for them, on timescales of decades, so why not try to do something about it?
While I can't agree as a whole, I can certainly respect that outlook/opinion and it still cuts to the heart of the matter.

While I tend to agree that AGW, or something similar, is a "thing"...even if I ignore that, I can't really say I think all the crap we're putting into the air is smart and a good thing to continue doing. I also think "sooner rather than later" is a good way to approach fixing it.

In some ways I worry more that maybe AGW is a "thing" but there is some other "thing" even more urgent we have no clue about and it'll be way past too late to fix THAT thing.

We're treating the planet like a giant experiment without understanding completely even a fraction of what is actually going on...that's bound to bite us in the backside unexpectedly sooner or later; that's how life works.

But...it looks like as a species the only thing we agree on is to do next-to-nothing* (which means: continue destroying and poisoning everything, even ourselves) and hope for the best. I truly hope the "deniers" are correct at this point...


*I know there are lots of efforts to "do something" (especially certain cities, counties, states, countries) but the net result has still been towards the "negative" when taken as a global whole.
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Old Thursday 15th August 2019, 16:53   #23
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It's a marketing scheme!

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/n...and-name-swap/

The transition from Icelandic monochrome winter to super-green summer is pretty incredible. You can literally see the country change colour from south to north on a day-by-day basis.

Nons(ci)ense in the OP aside, it does raise an interesting point that I'm curious to hear you opinion on Chosun - for a culture that is more strongly rooted in nature than our Western one I presume there is a stronger attachment to the ecological status quo, or in other words a narrower tolerance (expressed culturally/emotionally). Would you agree with that? And if so, how does 'positive' change impact? One could argue that a warmer climate in Greenland is a good thing (Russian scientists allegedly considered global warming a positive thing back in the day) - but the impact on the Inuit's traditional lifestyle is significant. And as the article points out not necessarily experienced as a positive thing.
I know very little about this but am curious to hear your thoughts.
Thanks,
Joost
Yes indeed ! Thanks for the link to that interesting article

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Joost, speaking from an 'Aboriginal' perspective I wouldn't agree with your statement as phrased. What there is strong attachment to is the 'health' of the land - both physically and spiritually (actually they are one and the same). Actually, even that is a bit of an inaccurate phrase, as it is not so much 'attachment' as embodiment - thus there is no separation between spirit <-> land <-> people. I believe that one day Quantum Physics may get this fully worked out, though I don't know if that will come in our lifetimes. Of course for spiritual keepers (lore men) , initiates, and culturally connected Aborigines even that concept of a future discovery is strange - considering that they exist in the 'everywhen'. From a western perspective, considering we are beyond the limits of science (current knowledge being merely a subset of reality) you could most easily think of it as magic.

Science is yet to discover the true length of inhabitation of Aborigines (currently put at 65,000 to 120,000 years ago) , but there are dreaming stories of 'stars that fell from the sky' (to make Wolfe Creek crater - perhaps up to 350,000 years ago?) , and I have recently met many remotely located (from each other) elders who all tell me that we have been here "forever". As such, Aborigines would have seen vastly different landforms and environments and climates - from lush remnant Gondwanan forests to the deserts of today. From Glaciation to significant Sea inundation dividing large parts of the country to fallen sea levels and land bridges. From Volcanic activity, to the more acknowledged droughts and flooding rains. They may have even experienced 'nuclear winters' after meteorite explosions etc. They also would have co-existed with Megafauna for 10's and 10's of 1000's of years if not much longer.

As such, as a people they would have seen and adapted to a lot of change - some of it quite sudden ! Mostly though it would have been on timescales long enough that it may not have been noticed during individual lifespans. The lore and culture though spans throughout time. One of the prime tenants is to 'listen to the land' and live in harmony with it. Look after the land that looks after you - that 'is' you. That is how I would term any 'attachment'.

Of course the converse is also true - look for example at the damage done to the Murray-Darling Basin (as I have detailed in that thread) - the damage to the land physically damages the people too. It is a very serious issue (quite apart from the elements of cultural genocide).

As far as changes (even those that may be viewed as 'positive') to the Greenland/Iceland, or other Northern Hemisphere areas go, I wouldn't feel qualified to comment on those. It would be fascinating to hear from Indigenous Elders from those cultures on the matter. As I am exploring in the "Indigenous" thread, it really comes down to a different mindset - one of taking only what is needed and preserving the health and sustainability of the land (not saying that there aren't examples throughout history where that hasn't gone pear shaped) vs a very Capitalist and exploitative mindset of taking what you want - and hang the ongoing natural asset base tomorrow ......

I hope I've been able to answer your query somewhat. No doubt what I have been able to express is also a mere subset of the total truth. I recently came across this meme. I quite like it :)

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Old Thursday 15th August 2019, 17:19   #24
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Chosun, I am no expert on the Aborigines but is the inference that they have been around on earth longer than most others? Seems to me that they simply remained "primitive" and that they did not change and advance their skills and knowledge like most of the northern races.

Could it be that they lived how they did because they had not the "drive" to move forward.

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Old Thursday 15th August 2019, 18:45   #25
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Originally Posted by poledark View Post
Chosun, I am no expert on the Aborigines but is the inference that they have been around on earth longer than most others? Seems to me that they simply remained "primitive" and that they did not change and advance their skills and knowledge like most of the northern races.

Could it be that they lived how they did because they had not the "drive" to move forward.
No, not lack of drive but lack of contact with the great technological and other developments taking place in the outside world in the centuries and millennia prior to contact with British imperialism. It was the Australians’ bad luck, shared unfortunately with aboriginal populations on other continents, that by then the cultural gap was too great for them to successfully compete. Similar catastrophes, now mostly long forgotten, would have occurred throughout human history when one group acquired an edge over another. Think of the poor Neanderthals, for example. . ..

The rest is just New Age mysticism. Quantum physics, forsooth!
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Last edited by fugl : Thursday 15th August 2019 at 19:10.
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