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Tengmalms Owl - Orkney

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Old Sunday 4th November 2018, 20:35   #101
Mark Batten
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Should "pay as you go listing" be on the basis of income or the size of your list? Obviously those with larger incomes and bigger lists would pay more to visit the toilet frequented by the Owl :-)
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Old Sunday 4th November 2018, 20:39   #102
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A very narrow spectrum when anything that is not philanthropic is emotional blackmail.
I think you understood that my point didn't revolve (or raise) the issue of philanthropy - quite probably most fundraising does really revolve around philanthropic ideals, nothing wrong with that.

I do however think that if an owner is presented with the suggestion of a public relations disaster if access is not given, linking it to a children's charity or whatever, then it is a bit out of order, and is indeed a form of emotional blackmail.

As also said in the previous post, I would be surprised if anybody would actually try this approach, but instead a more friendly productive means, which by all mean could include the possibility of raising money for charity.
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Old Sunday 4th November 2018, 20:43   #103
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I also made it clear that I would guarantee a minimum amount which presumably could attract further criticism.
No criticism if it only applies to you, and that it doesn't mean others with lesser means than you are deprived from the opportunity to see the bird should access be arranged.

Mental note to myself, should I ever be fortunate enough to find a mega of sufficient rarity to attract a Clevedon-based birder, I must remember to up the entry fee for the said birder :)
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Old Sunday 4th November 2018, 20:53   #104
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Loving this thread, more and more, with each post!!

You gotta love a desperate bunch o twitchers lol
Yeah. Great, innit. Having once been a proper stop-at-nothing twitcher myself, it's fascinating to see what I might have developed into had I not taken another path. Whilst being completely in agreement with Jos and Pete, Paul C strikes me as a decent bloke (for an Arsenal supporter ) so if not a whole foot, I've at least a big toe in his camp rooting for him to see it.

As you were...
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Old Sunday 4th November 2018, 21:17   #105
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I think you understood that my point didn't revolve (or raise) the issue of philanthropy - quite probably most fundraising does really revolve around philanthropic ideals, nothing wrong with that.
I was referring to Peter's comment. I broadly agreed with your post and I assume having known Steve for over 25 years that his wording was simply clumsy.

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No criticism if it only applies to you, and that it doesn't mean others with lesser means than you are deprived from the opportunity to see the bird should access be arranged.

Mental note to myself, should I ever be fortunate enough to find a mega of sufficient rarity to attract a Clevedon-based birder, I must remember to up the entry fee for the said birder :)
Absolutely. I was just referring to me. Those that can afford more should contribute more. It is the way the tax system works for those that do not abuse it.

I was more looking to defeat the argument that only a few hundred quid could be raised. If I was willing to contribute what I would pay say to twitch Fair Isle for instance, I would suggest that a Justgiving page is set up and the additional tax relief could assist the cause.

It would allow a minimum amount of fundraising for the charity and additional motivation to those controlling access. If a minimum amount was guaranteed, I am sure many others would travel but a lesser minimum would apply to them. I anticipate that those delightful ones that have swiped at me in the past and those who deride 'chequebook birders' would travel and leave their hands in their pockets.

Normally I object to paying 20 pence to use the toilet at Paddington Station.

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Yeah. Great, innit. Having once been a proper stop-at-nothing twitcher myself, it's fascinating to see what I might have developed into had I not taken another path. Whilst being completely in agreement with Jos and Pete, Paul C strikes me as a decent bloke (for an Arsenal supporter ) so if not a whole foot, I've at least a big toe in his camp rooting for him to see it.

As you were...
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Old Sunday 4th November 2018, 23:20   #106
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A very narrow spectrum when anything that is not philanthropic is emotional blackmail. As I raised it with Paul yesterday, presumably that covers me as well.... I also made it clear that I would guarantee a minimum amount which presumably could attract further criticism.

Ho hum.
Have you read Steve Gantlett’s post? That’s what I was referring to. I don’t think I’ve got my perspective wrong on this.
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Old Sunday 4th November 2018, 23:47   #107
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Have you read Steve Gantlett’s post? That’s what I was referring to. I don’t think I’ve got my perspective wrong on this.
Peter

I do think you've got the wrong perspective. I believe that you are reading the post with a subjective overlay and it is clumsy wording. But totally accept, I may be misreading it with a benign overlay.

We both made the same suggestion.

The Daily Telegraph did an article on Secret World's decision. That was ex post facto because I know they made their decision in ignorance even though the article suggests that it was made actively:-

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ear...o-Britain.html

"Not alerting the birding world and delaying the release until the thousands that would have poured from every corner of the nation had gathered to watch amounted to quite a sacrifice by the centre. Such organisations always need cash - and they could have filled several donations buckets as the crowd, overjoyed at the chance to see a once-in a-lifetime bird, showed their gratitude."

All the best
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Old Monday 5th November 2018, 00:58   #108
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Could be a trend starting here..where finders of much-wanted mega's could hold auctions to release news of such mega's whereabouts.


I wonder how much I could raise for a male Siberian Blue Robin in a local wood ?


Hmmm..starting price of 50K i reckon..going by Steve's opening offer of 50 quid to see a Tengmalms Owl on a toilet..or maybe even 100k considering there wouldn't be the cost of going to Orkney involved on top : )

All payable in advance through Paypal of course..with refunds for bird not being present after the whereabouts is given out and nobody successfully twitching it.

Rare bird finding could become a real money-spinner for talented rarity finders..instead of just for the news alert services that profit now.
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Old Monday 5th November 2018, 01:36   #109
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Any coincidence that "Harry's" owner goes by the name John?

:)
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Old Monday 5th November 2018, 05:56   #110
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Andrew

Yes. Emotional blackmail was the wrong phrase. Nothing wrong with differing motivations between those donating, those raising and those receiving. It is analogous to charity places at the London Marathon.

I believe Paul has explored the charity angle. I raised it with him yesterday. (Just as I did with Secret World when they failed to take the opportunity of the Yellow-nosed Albatross release.) He had already covered all bases. One of those things.

By the way, Childline and Children in Need are very different. The first is a service provided by the NSPCC and the second is a charity run by the BBC with their annual programme as an umbrella really. I know nothing about Fairtrade though.

All the best
Emotional blackmail is the wrong phrase. This is straightforward blackmail.

Let us be clear, the suggestion that turning down such a "charitable" offer would be a "PR disaster" would only be the case if you make a great effort to let it be known that said land owner turned down the unsolicited offer of using the random occurrence of a little thing with feathers on their land to raise money.

Is it now to be the case that twitchers run to the media/ social media any time they can't get to see a bird? Bonkers stuff.

Imagine some old dear just trying to have a cup of tea in peace only to have some anorak knocking on the door telling her it will look really bad if she turns down their generous offer?

By the hammer of Thor...

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Old Monday 5th November 2018, 06:13   #111
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Let us be clear, the suggestion that turning down such a "charitable" offer would be a "PR disaster" would only be the case if you make a great effort to let it be known that said land owner turned down the unsolicited offer of using the random occurrence of a little thing with feathers on their land to raise money.
It could also ultimately backfire on everyday birders - one example of the above could, I imagine, lead to many more landowners simply blocking access to birders permanently.
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Old Monday 5th November 2018, 07:36   #112
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Owen/Jos

Let's be clear. It wasn't the thrust of Steve's message. It was a sentence at the end and an explanation why such an arrangement would not normally be rejected. It was only elaborated on when the message was seized upon to troll him as describing such an arrangement as a bung. Then the elaboration was seized upon as if it was the main thrust of his message.

Whilst such entertainment is clearly why some spend their time on this forum, it is clearly nonsense.

I apologise for feeding the trolls and will now leave the topic alone unless or until something positive happens such as real news, potential access or a fund-raising opportunity.

The messages below for context.....

All the best

Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Gantlett View Post
I disagree. A PR disaster accepting 50 Quid a head for Children in Need just for brief access to a derelict toilet. I don't think so! But turning down thousands of pounds for Children in Need would be.
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Steve, you must be joking,, if, as you suggest, it's on airport or mod land and someone accepted a "Bung" (for whatever reason) that would be a pr disaster, and a local would likely be looking for a job.....
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Fake news aside, I think the current theory is that it's likely to be still there but somehow PH's hands are tied. If somebody were able to approach the landowner, even if it were security Airport, MOD or Port Authority land, and offered them 50 Quid a head to eg Children in Need just for very limited time access, it seems highly unlikely that would be turned down. It would be a public relations disaster.
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Old Monday 5th November 2018, 07:50   #113
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I apologise for feeding the trolls and will now leave the topic alone
A weak response to call persons trolls for simply viewing issues differently to you, thought you would be above that.

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Owen/Jos
Let's be clear. It wasn't the thrust of Steve's message.
Very kind of you to provide interpretation/intention of another person's message.

"If somebody were able to approach the landowner, even if it were security Airport, MOD or Port Authority land, and offered them 50 Quid a head to eg Children in Need just for very limited time access, it seems highly unlikely that would be turned down. It would be a public relations disaster."

To some persons, clearly not you Paul, the 'thrust' of this message is the suggestion that a PR disaster could result for someone failing to allow access to a bird if they don't accept 50 pounds per head for access. And presenting that argument to a landowner is blackmail.

Perhaps indeed Steve had intended another meaning, or perhaps had not thought it out well, or perhaps he did mean it, but in all cases he probably doesn't need a lawyer to suggest his intended meaning, I am sure he is capable to do so himself.
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Old Monday 5th November 2018, 08:18   #114
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Paul, I too will check out of this, but must clarify a few points. Firstly, I have no issue with Steve at alll, just that particular angle of "attack", as I feel it would not serve any of us well in the future. Secondly. I am no troll, you know me well and should correct that wording, I simply have a differing view of this to yours, and lastly, your final dig about folk usi ng birdforum could maybe be reflected in the number of posts by an individual..... cheers for now. P.
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Old Monday 5th November 2018, 08:39   #115
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A weak response to call persons trolls for simply viewing issues differently to you, thought you would be above that.



Very kind of you to provide interpretation/intention of another person's message.

"If somebody were able to approach the landowner, even if it were security Airport, MOD or Port Authority land, and offered them 50 Quid a head to eg Children in Need just for very limited time access, it seems highly unlikely that would be turned down. It would be a public relations disaster."

To some persons, clearly not you Paul, the 'thrust' of this message is the suggestion that a PR disaster could result for someone failing to allow access to a bird if they don't accept 50 pounds per head for access. And presenting that argument to a landowner is blackmail.

Perhaps indeed Steve had intended another meaning, or perhaps had not thought it out well, or perhaps he did mean it, but in all cases he probably doesn't need a lawyer to suggest his intended meaning, I am sure he is capable to do so himself.
Agree with Jos here, it has become all too easy to simply label anyone in disagreement with you as being a Troll.

The implication of the original statement was clear, that anyone turning down the opportunity to raise money for charity would suffer a PR disaster.

This would only be the case is those making the declined offer to raise money, i.e Twitchers, pushed the envelope on such a refusal.
A decent, normal thinking person, if refused access for a mass twitch should be able to simply say "Fair enough, thanks for your time.".
That's not what is happening here, or what was suggested earlier.

A while back I wrote about the condition I called "Askewed Birding Anorakism" . I suspect this is more of the same.

http://helhathnobirdies.blogspot.com...akism.html?m=1

Owen
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Old Monday 5th November 2018, 09:04   #116
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All this opining, postulating and dissection of certain posts, is there any actual news of the bird?
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Old Monday 5th November 2018, 09:13   #117
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Paul, I too will check out of this, but must clarify a few points. Firstly, I have no issue with Steve at alll, just that particular angle of "attack", as I feel it would not serve any of us well in the future. Secondly. I am no troll, you know me well and should correct that wording, I simply have a differing view of this to yours, and lastly, your final dig about folk usi ng birdforum could maybe be reflected in the number of posts by an individual..... cheers for now. P.
P

Sorry to have caused offence. I clearly misinterpreted your post (which is ironic). On your last sentence, which I suspect I am misinterpreting again, always happy for my posts to be looked at and indeed where in the forum I tend to post most.

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Old Monday 5th November 2018, 09:19   #118
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Jos/Owen

I always accept that I occasionally slip from the highest standards of behaviour.

I also don't tend to postulate or hold myself out as perfect because I am very aware that I am not. So I do not habitually comment on what I see as the behaviour of other people.

Whilst I find it ironic when terms such as blackmail were being banded around to have apparently fallen so short by using the term troll or indeed to be criticised for running an interpretation of a message (when exactly that has happened on another post to come up with emotional blackmail/blackmail), I am happy to accept that I am wrong and that you were not seizing upon a minor point to troll the posters. Apologies to the two of you and Peter.

All the best
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Old Monday 5th November 2018, 09:20   #119
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Personally I’d rather see a “Tree Standard” Tengmalm’s Owl as opposed to the one....not quite on offer!

That said as an aside, I recall a ‘50’s film called the “Trollenberg Terror”....might be a good avatar for someone ?
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Old Monday 5th November 2018, 09:21   #120
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All this opining, postulating and dissection of certain posts, is there any actual news of the bird?
Andy

No news and the Finstown rumour was nonsense from what I can assess.

I am now a hypocrite for posting three responses when I said I would post none and my post count has gone up. Ho hum.

All the best
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Old Monday 5th November 2018, 09:29   #121
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Fair enough Paul, and for the record, I generally enjoy your posts, and the humour that comes with them! Now this has all become silly, for which I am partly to blame (sorry all) I will finish with the thought, that we should all trust that those on the ground on Orkney are doing the best thing by the bird, and that Mr LoWeS gets wee Harry back!!!!!!!
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Old Monday 5th November 2018, 09:49   #122
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I am now a hypocrite for posting three responses when I said I would post none and my post count has gone up. Ho hum.

All the best
Don't worry, Paul, I have yet to meet a human being who isn't! Your humility, self-awareness and self-deprecation do you credit. Hopefully this will be an end to the matter.

Good birding/twitching
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Old Monday 5th November 2018, 11:17   #123
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Yeah. Great, innit. Having once been a proper stop-at-nothing twitcher myself, it's fascinating to see what I might have developed into had I not taken another path. Whilst being completely in agreement with Jos and Pete, Paul C strikes me as a decent bloke (for an Arsenal supporter ) so if not a whole foot, I've at least a big toe in his camp rooting for him to see it.

As you were...
Dont get me wrong, I like nothing more than a good twitch myself and in doing so have got a decent Scottish list. If news was made public I would certainly think about travelling for it, but only if the news came out in the right manner!!
By this I mean the fact people have been told there is no public access, yet we are hearing stories from here & on Facebook of people travelling to Orkney in the hope of finding the bird, along with other efforts to eek out some sort of response from Orkney.

What I would say is why no public access in the firstplace, has anyone thought about this?!?!
Perhaps someone has a very ill loved one in the Croft the bird is on, and thus has no wish to see hordes of people trampling all about it!
I have no idea about the reason myself and hopefully the above is way far off the mark!
It's all about respecting people's wishes whether we like it or not!
Something some of the twitching fraternity clearly doesnt do too well.

In the meantime I will be keeping my eye on this thread as well as FB and enjoy a good read.
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Old Monday 5th November 2018, 11:20   #124
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I would personally pay good money to see Paul in full arsenal kit, pink rubber gloves and holding a bog brush in one hand and a pair of swarovskis in the other......
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Old Monday 5th November 2018, 11:27   #125
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Think the phrase 'possible missed opportunity' makes more sense than a 'PR disaster' perhaps?

Can understand the sentiment behind the latter phrasing though - sometimes the general frustration at lack of forward thinking outside of the box comes out.

At the end of the day. Assume this has been discussed on the ground however, although it doesn't hurt for outside thoughts to be voiced and put into the mix sometimes. After all, this is a forum, a kind of glorified pub discussion arena (and a pretty civil, polite one at that).

Anyway ...
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