Black Tailed/Bar Tailed Godwit (1 Viewer)

DGRW · Jun 22, 2007

My apologies for what is probably a very old cherry but I've been battling for some time with what should obviously be a very simple problem to solve and every time that I think I've cracked it I find that I'm struggling again.

How to tell a Bar Tailed Godwit from a Black Tailed Godwit at distance?

Wing bar and definition of plumage are all very well and simple but I'm finding that at distance and especially on the ground; I'm still struggling to tell them apart if plumage on individual birds is not in good condition.

Any nice simple tips for a nice simple birder?

ColinD · Jun 22, 2007

DGRW said:
.....
Any nice simple tips for a nice simple birder?

First of all location. If the birds are on a beach there is a good chance they are Bar-tailed. If they are inland, then probably Black-tailed. I'll now get bombarded with lots of examples of why this isn't correct, but I find that generally this holds true.

Obviously Bar-tailed have a barred tail and Black-tailed have a black and white tail. Also Black-tailed have a white wing bar in flight. You should have no problems in flight.

On the ground at a distance, the best way to tell them apart is structure. Bar-tailed are much shorter legged than Black-tailed. You may think that this would only be relavent when the two are together, but in fact it is very obvious even with a single bird. Black-tailed look in proportion, Bar-tailed look ridiculously dumpy and short legged, and almost seem to struggle to walk compared to Black-tailed.

DGRW · Jun 22, 2007

Coigach -

On the ground at a distance, the best way to tell them apart is structure. Bar-tailed are much shorter legged than Black-tailed. You may think that this would only be relavent when the two are together, but in fact it is very obvious even with a single bird. Black-tailed look in proportion, Bar-tailed look ridiculously dumpy and short legged, and almost seem to struggle to walk compared to Black-tailed.

__________________

As you say; closer up and in flight isn't a problem, I could waffle on about location but I take your point.

"Structure" though; I think is probably the key as with many similar species that at first glance may look very alike but then, when you become more familiar with "structure" and "Jizz", the differences become more apparent.

Apart from the obvious wing-bar in flight and the tail feathers that are not always distinct at distance; are there any other plumage or other distinct colouration or pattern characteristics that anyone uses to distinguish the two?

Thanks Coigach.

Ruby · Jun 22, 2007

Hi Coigach,

In summer plumage, the orangey colouration of Barwits streches all the way underneath, with Blackwits it's mainly just the neck and breast.

In winter, the upperparts of Blackwits are fairly plain, whereas Barwits have much more patterning.

I'll attach some photos (of various qualities!) which hopefully will explain what I mean a bit better....

There is also the upturned bill on the Barwit, but personally I have seen some birds of either species that don't seem to know the rules re: this particular feature.

Ruby

DGRW · Jun 22, 2007

Ruby -

The difference in the extent of the summer plumage russet is a good tip.

I find it fairly easy (I think) to distinguish the winter plumage as the Bar Tailed tend to have a far more defined patterning on the back.

I should be seeing Bar Tailed this weekend and there may be a couple of Black Tailed present too so that'll hopefully give me a good opportunity to re-examine and compare yet again.

The main points I'll be trying to note will be comparative stance and structure, that "short legged" look of the Bar Tailed and the extent of the russet as well as the other obvious plumage distinctions (wing bars and tails).

Tell you what, just discussing it like this makes the distinctions seem all the more obvious but that's until I get out there and begin to question my own judgement again especially if there are equal quandries and uncertainties amongst other observers (as there usually seem to be).

I've even known a few very experienced and knowledgable birders recently that have seemed a little unsure at times.

Thanks

Vernon Lundy · Jun 22, 2007

I was given a good tip for identifying at great distances by a birder in Norfolk. The Black-tailed feeds with head-down but swallows frequently by tipping the head back and up which the Bar-tailed doesn't do. Try it out - it works for me.

DGRW · Jun 22, 2007

Excellent Vernon.

That's a new one on me although it sounds as though it shouldn't be.

I'll keep my eye out for that on Sunday.

Henstooth · Jun 23, 2007

I saw the Blackwits for the first time yesterday in Elmley RSPB. (tick on my life list). I was in a state trying to identify them particularly as there were no Barwits to compare them to. The feeding tip from Vernon rings true from what I saw, so that's a goodie. Beautiful summer plumage I have to say. I was stunned at how smart they looked.
Henstooth

Mickymouse · Jun 23, 2007

Vernon Lundy said:
I was given a good tip for identifying at great distances by a birder in Norfolk. The Black-tailed feeds with head-down but swallows frequently by tipping the head back and up which the Bar-tailed doesn't do. Try it out - it works for me.

I like that one but how do you remember which one does what?

Mick

Jane Turner · Jun 23, 2007

It should also be noted that the leg length/structure thing works less well in SE Asia as compared W.Europe - but I guess Europe was what you were interested.
in.

Henstooth · Jun 24, 2007

Simple rhyme...Black Tip-back Bar don't...

As Black Tailed TIP their heads back to swallow, Barwits don't.
Henstooth

kmonty1950 · Jun 24, 2007

Mickymouse said:
I like that one but how do you remember which one does what?

Mick

When I first started birding, someone told me to remember the gym - horizontal bars, as they're more "level bodied" when they feed.

Good birding

Ken.

Mickymouse · Jun 24, 2007

Henstooth said:
Simple rhyme...Black Tip-back Bar don't...

As Black Tailed TIP their heads back to swallow, Barwits don't.
Henstooth

Thanks I shall do my best to remember that. Actually birding memory aids, mnemonics etc would be a good thread.

Mick

DGRW · Jun 25, 2007

Well; that was an interesting weekend,

Seven Black Tailed Godwits and no Bar tailed Godwits but one bird in particular that stood out from the crowd, a much more strongly coloured bird that I intitially thought may have been a Bar Tailed as it's russet plumage did seem far more extensive than on the other birds (same shape though), fortunately a very experienced Birder came to the rescue (thanks Dave) and identified it very positively as Limosa limosa icelandica (Icelandic Black Tailed Godwit).

So not a great deal of progress for me there I feel.

I'm waiting now to see both species (or all three) side by side (by side).

Henstooth · Jun 25, 2007

Where was that spot? The reason I ask is that when I was at Elmley, there was ONE PARTICULAR Godwit that had markedly more red russet plumage than the others. I assumed it was a "better, stronger" male of the Black Tailed (no bars on tail) rather that any a differet type. I was there Thursday in the first hide.
Henstooth

deborah4 · Jun 25, 2007

DGRW said:
So not a great deal of progress for me there I feel.

I'm waiting now to see both species (or all three) side by side (by side).

tbh... think getting experience of seeing Barwit and Godwit together in the field is the best way of gaining confidence in Iding them when they are alone - they vary, as with many birds, and when typical plumage features aren't visible or structure hard to judge without comparative reference (ie bill/leg length), lone birds can be quite hard to confidently ID at times. Especially when distance and lighting isn't on your side (which is often the case with waders!)

Meanwhile try another memory aid for a bit of fun:

MALE Bar-tailed = the ALCOHOLIC bird

1. Beer gut
2. Head in it's drink, nose pointing up at optics
3. Drinks slowly to avoid a long bill
3. Alcoholic flush
4. Legless

all leads to being BARRED permanently in the end! (female tries to avoid bars altogether except at tail-end of the evening, and generally shows a warm peachy glow rather than alcoholic flush)

MALE and FEMALE Black-tailed = BINGE drinkers

1. Knocks back it's drink one after the other - 'bottoms up'
2. One night out leaves them with a Long bill in the red
3. Have beginnings of alcoholic flush (although Icelandic drinkers tend to develop greater flush similar to alcoholic Bar-Tailed) but then always gets BARRED in the middle of the evening rather than at the end
4. Usually have the legs to walk away!

B

B

Ruby · Jun 25, 2007

Hi Guys,

Have to say that I find structure etc to be a easier and more reliable id factor than plumage - the only reason that I banged on about plumage is because that is the particular question from Coigach that I was responding to. The problem with relying on plumage is that we usually see birds (here in the SE at any rate) which are either in the process of gaining or losing their Summer plumage and any given flock of birds can show enormous differences amongst them.

Good tips regarding the feeding action and posture - I'll have a look out for that next time I'm in Godwit-land....

Ruby

DGRW · Jun 25, 2007

Henstooth -

This was on the tidal area of the Trent/Ouse/Humber.

I assumed it was a "better, stronger" male of the Black Tailed (no bars on tail) rather that any a differet type.

This bird not not really different "type"; still a Black Tailed Godwit but one of the "Icelandic race" rather than Scandanavian. The same principle as Dark and Pale bellied Brent Geese.

Deborah - Very good, I like it.

Ruby - I'd rather not contemplate eclipse and moult at this stage LOL.

Henstooth · Jun 25, 2007

So with your's up there and mine down here....not likely to be the same one!!LOL. But mine most likely to be an Icelandic too...Thanks for that.

wetlands_wedge · Jun 25, 2007

"The problem with relying on plumage is that we usually see birds (here in the SE at any rate) which are either in the process of gaining or losing their Summer plumage and any given flock of birds can show enormous differences amongst them." (Ruby)

Hiya!
We were at the London Wetland Centre yesterday where this was most apparent. Two seperate groups of Blackwits dropped in (3 and 6) and were in various stages of moult. Still, had lovely views down to about twenty metres!

Black Tailed/Bar Tailed Godwit (1 Viewer)

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