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Canon vs Nikon - entry level.

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Old Monday 8th October 2018, 12:55   #51
Chosun Juan
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Also, as DX means that zooms have a +X crop factor I suppose this also applies to the bottom end of the zoom and a 10-20 DX becomes, say, a 15-30 on the camera?
Yes, that is correct. It's a 1.5x crop factor for the Nikon APS-C sensor, so 10-20 becomes 15-30.

My 24MP D7200 also has a 1.3 in-camera crop factor mode as well @15.4MP ..... that's why I recommended it - you are right though - rare as rocking horse p**p 2nd hand - must be lots of happy users :)

I have the Tokina 12-28 f4 DX PRO, and so it becomes an 18-42, but I can extend that at the top end with the 1.3x in-camera crop to make ~55mm. That way I've got 18-55. With it's 2.33x range, I'm pretty sure the Tokina is the largest multiplication range wide angle zoom on the market, most are around 2x. I always want more though, so I really wish my lens was a bit wider and went from 10-30 f3.5, that would be super cool getting me from 15-58.

So yeah, getting a 10 to whatever is a good move.

I use the extra 1.3x crop all the time, particularly for birding with the 600 Tammy.

Ultimately it really makes no difference to the view whether you crop in-camera or in post processing. It just gives me a better idea of framing with the wide angle, and with the Tammy it's good because I can get an extra fps, and reduced file size.




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Old Monday 8th October 2018, 21:53   #52
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Is there a downside (reduced f-stop, etc) to using the 1.4x teleconverter with the Tamron 150-600 G2?
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Old Tuesday 9th October 2018, 01:42   #53
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There will be a drop off in image quality, drop off in focus speed/accuracy in lower light, and I believe that the Tamron TC reports back at f8 in order to work at all, so you are limited to your camera's f8 focus spots - you'd have to check if this is just the centre one or even if the D5600 can do it at all ..... otherwise it's manual focus.




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Last edited by Chosun Juan : Tuesday 9th October 2018 at 02:17. Reason: Dan autocorrect !
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Old Tuesday 9th October 2018, 08:51   #54
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There will be a drop off in image quality, drop off in focus speed/accuracy in lower light, and I believe that the Tamron TC reports back at f8 in order to work at all, so you are limited to your camera's f8 focus spots - you'd have to check if this is just the centre one or even if the D5600 can do it at all ..... otherwise it's manual focus.




Chosun .
Thanks again for that Chosun, probably give that a swerve then. I think I am in a position to acquire a Tamron 150-600 G2 shortly after my camera arrives. Seen them as low as 835 new from a photographic eBay retailer. Presumably these are grey imports? Anyway the retailer has a physical outlet in Derbyshire that I could get to when making an important purchase like this.
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Old Tuesday 9th October 2018, 10:39   #55
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Thanks again for that Chosun, probably give that a swerve then. I think I am in a position to acquire a Tamron 150-600 G2 shortly after my camera arrives. Seen them as low as 835 new from a photographic eBay retailer. Presumably these are grey imports? Anyway the retailer has a physical outlet in Derbyshire that I could get to when making an important purchase like this.
I'm not saying that the Tamron 1.4xTC is no good on the G2, only stating the obvious - ie. that to start with the 150-600 G2 is not up to the same high levels of MTF of Nikon's 600 f4 FL or Canon's 600 f4L (both with fluorite elements) and so, relatively, takes a bit more of an IQ hit than do these two uber $$$ lenses once you put a 1.4xTC on it (they both function well without any 'practical' loss of IQ).

[EDIT] [If you do decide you want the extra reach of the Tamron 1.4xTC, then make sure to get the Tamron branded one as it is purpose designed and matched to work with Tamron lenses including the 150-600 G2. You would mostly want to shoot static subjects off a tripod or super steady rest such as a large beanbag and use remote or timed release (perhaps with mirror up too) - you will need every bit of help when pushing gear this far, and you will need ultra clear and still atmosphere too. Even with all the focal length and TC you will want to get as close as possible to retain some semblance of detail].

As you would expect, AF wouldn't be fast at f(8) on the Tammy + TC anyway. What you should do is follow up with the compatability of the combination with the D5600 to see if AF is enabled, and if so, with which points and mode.

When it comes down to it, the question is - do you get better results with the TC or by cropping the picture from the bare lens down to the same image size ....... ??

The other thing to note is that there is a lot of unit to unit variability in quality with these consumer super telephoto zooms, so if possible try the exact unit you will be buying and compare a few copies if you can.




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Old Tuesday 9th October 2018, 11:17   #56
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Thanks again Chosun, you are obviously more knowledgeable on photographic matters than I am. In the past I have owned film SLRs (Zenith, Olympus OM10, Canon Eos) but probably never pushed them to the limit of their capabilities. There are some excellent tutorial videos on YouTube about the camera (one is 1hr24min) and the Tamron lens, which I will watch as they may tell me more, initially, than the manual. At least you get a manual with this camera and not a disk or online link.

UPDATE: The camera just arrived so the odyssey starts here!
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Old Tuesday 9th October 2018, 13:28   #57
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Thanks again Chosun, you are obviously more knowledgeable on photographic matters than I am. In the past I have owned film SLRs (Zenith, Olympus OM10, Canon Eos) but probably never pushed them to the limit of their capabilities. There are some excellent tutorial videos on YouTube about the camera (one is 1hr24min) and the Tamron lens, which I will watch as they may tell me more, initially, than the manual. At least you get a manual with this camera and not a disk or online link.

UPDATE: The camera just arrived so the odyssey starts here!
Coming from film gives you all you need to know - just sub ISO for film ASA and away you go. You still want to factor in the reciprocal rule for shutter speed. So with your 70-300 lens, you will want at least 1/500th second (300x1.5) even with VR on. Of course this is really too slow to isolate breeze ruffled feathers, or a quick head twitch, and you're better off with higher shutter speeds, especially for BIF.

For some reason the sensor in the D5600 is about a third of a stop behind my D7200 in DR even though both are 24MP. I try and keep my ISO at or below 400 for good results, and below 200 they are really nice. Still, a lot of other cameras are just waking up at around 2-400 ISO compared to the Nikon, and I've had pretty good results up to ISO 3200. Beyond that I think you're better off going for the 'arty' noisy look.

Just as a quick heads up, when I'm mostly shooting birds with the big Tammy it is hand held, and I use "Auto ISO" mode. I will set a minimum shutter speed of 1/2000th sec and depending on the light at the time, an ISO range of 100-1600 usually up to a max of 3200. This lets you snap away without worrying about each individual setting. I probably do 80% of my shooting like this, and just adjust exposure compensation for each shot or series as necessary. Probably the hardest scenario is with a pied cormorant flying high speed circuits around you - into bright sunshine on one side and shadow on the other. If they come really close and you have to change zoom as well, then you will end up busier than a one arm bricklayer in Beirut !!!

I suppose you are familiar with the concept of ETTR (expose to the right) ie. depending on the situation, lighting and ISO, mostly make sure that you get all the shadows on the histogram, and then it is possible to recover some highlights in post processing. This will keep the noise levels down as much as possible.

Enjoy your new toy ..... and get the Tammy G2 ASAP ! :)




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Old Tuesday 9th October 2018, 13:52   #58
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Here are some reviews for the 70-300mm AF-P, which I mentioned earlier. It weighs 400 grams and is available at around 339. [snip]

I don't have a problem with the idea that a bigger and more expensive lens is going to give better results in most situations (though I wonder if all are as sharp or quick to focus as this lens). However, this is really a different type of lens that is so small it's almost imperceptible to carry. Even if one were to graduate to a big lens, I think you'd hang on to this lens for when you want something lighter and smaller that can still give very good results. In my experience it's a significant step up from other cheapish 300mm zoom lenses. The IQ, focus speed (it hardly hunts at all) and sharpness are much better than anything similar that I've ever used. It's also pretty much at its best wide open at 300mm.
I agree. It's an amazing lens for the size and weight, not to mention the price. And with modern cameras you can crop quite a bit if the bird is too far away. In fact, unless you use good prime *and* a high quality converter the results from cropping are almost always better than when you use a converter.

BTW, the autofocus is *very* fast, even on an entry level camera like the D3300.

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Old Wednesday 10th October 2018, 10:22   #59
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[...] the results from cropping are almost always better than when you use a converter.
Teleconverters include glass. FT1 + V2 can be seen as a lightweight "non-glass TC". With a 150-600 lens, that's 600mm x 2.7 = 1,620mm.
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Old Wednesday 10th October 2018, 16:49   #60
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70-300 DX VR ED lens arrived and duly had UV filter fitted.

Watched a couple of tutorials about the D5600, one with a shouty bloke who looked like he’d escaped from an episode of The Hair Bear Bunch and another of nearly an hour and a half that was really instructive on how to set the camera up, negotiate the menus and explain about the various modes of AF, etc.

Set up the Nikon SnapBridge app link which seems to be working okay.

On the major plus side an offer of 130 off the new Tamron 150-600 G2 with a high street camera retailer brings it down to 999 but it’s still going for 834 new on eBay. Decisions, decisions!
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Old Wednesday 10th October 2018, 18:29   #61
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Also, as DX means that zooms have a +X crop factor I suppose this also applies to the bottom end of the zoom and a 10-20 DX becomes, say, a 15-30 on the camera?
The 35mm DX f/1.8 should probably be in your bag. It's inexpensive, fast, and great image quality. If you don't have any other fast lens, get this. It is really nice for evening & indoor shots in available light.

That 10-20 DX AF-P is supposed to be a very nice wide, though I've not used it. And it's only 8oz (227g)! If you want a wide, that's a great choice.

Shooting wide is it's own art form, and if you like to do that, go for it. I don't shoot wide too often, and when I do it is for getting deep 3d perspectives not to "fit more" in the frame. Personally, I'd try to get a more general walk-around lens because switching between 18-55 and 70-300 will miss shots and I find it a hassle when I'm going around as a tourist. I'd use a good walk-around lens like the 18-200 like 10x more often than I would the 10-20.

If the 18-55 focal length works for the majority of your shooting when not birding, then you can ignore what I'm about to say. I find 18-55 (24 - 80 equivalent) to not be that interesting of a focal range.

I think something like a used 18-200 DX AF-S VR or 18-300 DX AF-S VR would do more for me as a general purpose lens. The 18-200, while a bit heavy at 19.9oz (565g), is pretty inexpensive used. There are two versions of it with about identical optical performance. The "ii" version has a zoom lock to prevent lens creep if you're taking on strenuous hikes. With this, you would have one walk around lens and one sports/birding lens. I understand that usually one does not want to duplicate focal length (the 75-200 overlap), but for me it is more of a specialization of functionality (walk-around vs sports/birding) and to reduce lens changing.

The 16-80 f/2.8~4 E DX VR is also supposed to be great and it is pretty fast, but also expensive. That's 24 - 120 equivalent, which is right in there as a walk-around "street sweeper" focal length.

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Old Wednesday 10th October 2018, 18:34   #62
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Thanks again for that Chosun, probably give that a swerve then. I think I am in a position to acquire a Tamron 150-600 G2 shortly after my camera arrives. Seen them as low as 835 new from a photographic eBay retailer. Presumably these are grey imports? Anyway the retailer has a physical outlet in Derbyshire that I could get to when making an important purchase like this.
I find it very hard to get good results w/ the Tammy 1.4 TC on the 150-600g2. You really start to need stable support and bright lighting and fine focus tuning. If find I get better AF performance on the 600 f/6.3 and can crop the heck out of it.
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Old Wednesday 10th October 2018, 18:52   #63
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70-300 DX VR ED lens arrived and duly had UV filter fitted.

Watched a couple of tutorials about the D5600, one with a shouty bloke who looked like he’d escaped from an episode of The Hair Bear Bunch and another of nearly an hour and a half that was really instructive on how to set the camera up, negotiate the menus and explain about the various modes of AF, etc.

Set up the Nikon SnapBridge app link which seems to be working okay.
If you can figure out SnapBridge, let me know Personally, I skip the whole wireless transfer unless I'm really dying to share a photo. It's a hassle, it eats the camera battery, and the IQ is often reduced unless you are very patient to transfer full size photos. I just don't find it worth the trouble. I plug the SD card into my laptop.

With youtube, you get what you pay for!

You could try some of these guides. They are for the d5300, but it should be pretty much the same:

A couple caveats.

If you will be cropping, shoot Large/Fine, not Basic as Ken recommends. Ken also like to get his in-camera settings just right and only shoot jpeg, not raw. I find that for action shots of uncooperative critters, it is hard to get the exposure right over the whole frame and I usually want to crop a fair bit. So, I like raw instead; I shoot raw/jpeg fine combo and do a first pass through the jpegs. If there's a shot I really like that was only so-so in the jpeg I might try to recover it from the raw (this is usually recover the exposure, you cannot do much about blur or lack of focus).

Ken has a "People" setting and a "Places/Things" setting. I think his People setting should work great for you. For the "Places/Things", you want a "Birds" setting instead. At times, Ken will mention "Sports" settings, and those would work for birds too. You can base it on Places/Things, but you have Continuous High, AF-C w/ 3D tracking, and a higher minimum shutter speed.

I usually shoot birds in M mode where I fix the SS and aperture to what I want (e.g. 1/500th - 1/2000th and f/8 ~ 10 or so) and then use auto-ISO and spot metering. I usually leave it at a pretty high SS like 1/1250 or faster to capture the opportunistic BIF and if I find a percher I will drop it down to maybe 1/250 - 1/500, depending on the situation, lens support, etc. As you are shooting 300mm vs my 600mm, you could go slower and open up the aperture more.

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Old Wednesday 10th October 2018, 19:32   #64
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The 35mm DX f/1.8 should probably be in your bag. It's inexpensive, fast, and great image quality. If you don't have any other fast lens, get this. It is really nice for evening & indoor shots in available light.

That 10-20 DX AF-P is supposed to be a very nice wide, though I've not used it. And it's only 8oz (227g)! If you want a wide, that's a great choice.

Shooting wide is it's own art form, and if you like to do that, go for it. I don't shoot wide too often, and when I do it is for getting deep 3d perspectives not to "fit more" in the frame. Personally, I'd try to get a more general walk-around lens because switching between 18-55 and 70-300 will miss shots and I find it a hassle when I'm going around as a tourist. I'd use a good walk-around lens like the 18-200 like 10x more often than I would the 10-20.

If the 18-55 focal length works for the majority of your shooting when not birding, then you can ignore what I'm about to say. I find 18-55 (24 - 80 equivalent) to not be that interesting of a focal range.

I think something like a used 18-200 DX AF-S VR or 18-300 DX AF-S VR would do more for me as a general purpose lens. The 18-200, while a bit heavy at 19.9oz (565g), is pretty inexpensive used. There are two versions of it with about identical optical performance. The "ii" version has a zoom lock to prevent lens creep if you're taking on strenuous hikes. With this, you would have one walk around lens and one sports/birding lens. I understand that usually one does not want to duplicate focal length (the 75-200 overlap), but for me it is more of a specialization of functionality (walk-around vs sports/birding) and to reduce lens changing.

The 16-80 f/2.8~4 E DX VR is also supposed to be great and it is pretty fast, but also expensive. That's 24 - 120 equivalent, which is right in there as a walk-around "street sweeper" focal length.

Marc
I’ve just ordered the Tamron 150-600 G2 so I think any other lenses are out of the question till Christmas when I may coax a 10-20 out of the spouse. I would think 18-105 or 18-140 would be good walk-around lenses?

PS - battery went down rather fast in 2 days which I am putting down to SnapBridge so I may disable that by deleting the app.

Last edited by Apodidae49 : Wednesday 10th October 2018 at 19:34.
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Old Wednesday 10th October 2018, 19:44   #65
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Ive just ordered the Tamron 150-600 G2 so I think any other lenses are out of the question till Christmas when I may coax a 10-20 out of the spouse. I would think 18-105 or 18-140 would be good walk-around lenses?

PS - battery went down rather fast in 2 days which I am putting down to SnapBridge so I may disable that by deleting the app.
I leave my camera in "airplane" mode to turn off all the radio stuff. Do you have GPS in that camera? Turn it off too or put it in the low power mode.

Hurray for the 150-600 g2!

I think anything that gives you at least to a 135mm (equivalent) or more is a good walk-around lens. The 105 (160 equivalent) or 140 (210 equivalent) should be good in focal range.

Basing this off Ken Rockwell's reviews, the 18-105mm is not a good choice.

The 18-140 DX sounds like a good lens (https://kenrockwell.com/nikon/18-140mm.htm).

I've not used either. I used the 18-200 (2nd model w/ zoom lock) and it was a great lens.

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Old Wednesday 10th October 2018, 22:48   #66
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If you will be cropping, shoot Large/Fine, not Basic as Ken recommends. Ken also like to get his in-camera settings just right and only shoot jpeg, not raw.
Ken Rockwell is a somewhat controversial guy, and with good reason. His advice to shoot in Basic is plain nonsense, for instance.

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I find that for action shots of uncooperative critters, it is hard to get the exposure right over the whole frame and I usually want to crop a fair bit. So, I like raw instead; I shoot raw/jpeg fine combo and do a first pass through the jpegs. If there's a shot I really like that was only so-so in the jpeg I might try to recover it from the raw (this is usually recover the exposure, you cannot do much about blur or lack of focus).
I only shoot in RAW; I don't use it just for action shots. You can always tweak the colour balance, the contrast and so on very easily in RAW. You can also select an appropriate Picture Control if you use the (free) Nikon software, Capture NX-D. The latest version that came out in September is a very nice piece of software, and unlike the earlier versions doesn't need too much computing power.

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I usually shoot birds in M mode where I fix the SS and aperture to what I want (e.g. 1/500th - 1/2000th and f/8 ~ 10 or so) and then use auto-ISO and spot metering. I usually leave it at a pretty high SS like 1/1250 or faster to capture the opportunistic BIF and if I find a percher I will drop it down to maybe 1/250 - 1/500, depending on the situation, lens support, etc. As you are shooting 300mm vs my 600mm, you could go slower and open up the aperture more.
Yep. Fully manual with auto ISO is the way to go. Check out the video by Steve Perry on Youtube on this topic, he explains the reasoning behind this very well. With the AF-P 70-300 I leave the lens fully open all the time; the lens doesn't get any better when stopped down.

As far as the AF is concerned, I usually use single point AF (just the middle sensor). I only switch to dynamic AF for birds in flight. It's in my experience the most reliable mode with the amateur cameras.

I also use AF-On, with the camera on AF-C.

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