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New camera, 150-400 and 2x TC ?

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Old Monday 7th January 2019, 16:47   #26
Vespobuteo
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I've never bought the argument that you need a larger body to "balance" a larger lens. The body is there to hold the sensor, etc., not to "balance" the lens, whatever that means. You can get perfect balance on a tripod or hand held with a large lens without having to increase the size of the body, you just adjust the position of your hands or the tripod mount.
People usually mount the battery grip when shooting larger lenses as you need the extra support for the lower part of the hand.
It seems logical to integrate the grip when the camera is intended for pro users shooting sport with large lenses. And as mentioned above, there will be some weight savings having the grip built in.

Consider that the new 150-400mm/4 might be as heavy as 3 kg.
Olympus might have to beef up the magnesium body wall thickness as well and needs more space for a larger battery. All makes sense in a pro body.

The EM-1 ii will most likely remain so it's not mandatory to choose the larger body.

Personally I would have preferred something lighter and probably cheaper as similar Canon/Nikon lenses are $10000.

Last edited by Vespobuteo : Monday 7th January 2019 at 20:56.
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Old Monday 7th January 2019, 19:05   #27
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Concerning the equivalence issues, discussed above,
this is a pretty good resource to digest ("Equivalent Speed"):

https://www.opticallimits.com/Reviews/986-equivalence
That is indeed one of more clear and concise essays on equivalence that I have seen. Thanks for sharing it.

At the risk of going "off topic," the wild card for me is the physical size of the pixels on the sensor, and what the "sweet spot" is, which may vary for different individuals depending on a range of factors, most especially how high you crank up the ISO. The quality of the glass you use in front of the sensor is also very important. I'm not sure that all expensive super telephoto lenses are equally up to the task of resolving details on sensors with high pixel density. Seems like it might also sometimes matter whether the lens has been designed specifically for the sensor size... In any case, I think it is understandable that the "equivalence" topic generates so much confusion and discussion. It really is pretty complex with a lot of factors to consider.

Back on topic...

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As you probably know, the 150-400 is supposed to come with a built-in 1.25x switchable TC option, and Oly will also introduce a 2x TC ... And yes, I believe they are supposed to announce two other longish lenses in development. I really prefer zooms myself because I need the flexibility to shift between different types and sizes of subjects. ...
I can completely understand that. Historically zoom lenses and teleconverters usually meant a compromise in image quality. However Olympus has a reputation for making zoom lenses with almost zero compromise. I recall reading so many good things about their older "Super High Grade" zooms. For me personally, the extra complexity of a 150-400 zoom would be mostly wasted and just serve to make it more expensive, but I know lots of people really need/use the wide end. My first telephoto was a Nikon 200-400mm. I never looked back after I sold it and I still sort of crave a bit more length for small birds, but maybe someday I will come back to a zoom...

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Olympus have a number of new camera/imaging technologies and features for which they need a body, and the electronics required to implement the technologies may require more space than is available with the current body.
This and much of the rest of what you said makes a lot of sense to me. I've read that the future of imaging is going to increasingly shift to processing inside the camera. I like that Olympus is sort of bucking the trend, ignoring the "megapixel race" and maybe leading the way in this regard.

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The rumors says it's an f4, Olympus 150-400mm f/4.0 PRO.

... that will be pretty big. Nikon/Canon similar lenses with bult in TC are 3kg+ in weight
and costs 10000k.
Yeah I don't think we know for sure whether it is a fixed f/4 all the way out to 400mm, but I had the same thought... I hope Olympus doesn't price it at $10K...

Hey, the Olympus forum has come to life and we have a lively discussion with several participants. How about that!

Happy new year everyone.

Dave

Last edited by opticoholic : Monday 7th January 2019 at 21:56. Reason: wordsmithing
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Old Monday 7th January 2019, 21:31   #28
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Happy (belated) New Year from me as well.

Regarding zoom or not: it has never come to the fore elsewhere like it did in Galapagos. Most things were just so close, but the occasional longer distance item definitely kept my zoom busy! IF using primes I would have had to bring several bodies with one lens each because of the unpredictability of what would be available.

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Old Tuesday 8th January 2019, 11:05   #29
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Yeah I don't think we know for sure whether it is a fixed f/4 all the way out to 400mm, but I had the same thought... I hope Olympus doesn't price it at $10K...

Hey, the Olympus forum has come to life and we have a lively discussion with several participants. How about that!

Happy new year everyone.

Dave
If it's a PRO lens, at least f4 seems logical, also a built in TC makes more sense on a faster lens?
Also the 100 years anniversary might make Olympus to go a bit "crazy" on this lens and make it a $10k lens...

At $4-5K it would be a bit more interesting, and it would be less than 50% of a Nikon/Canon 800mm/f5.6 lens. But Right now I lean more towards the Nikon 500 PF as I prefer lighter gear these days.

When working from a hide, a 300-800mm zoom (1200mm with 1.5 TC!) at 3kg would be very useful though.
5 axis IS would probably make it handholdable as well, at least for a few minutes.

Latest supertele lenses from Sony and Canon have lost a lot of weight.
Perhaps Olympus could manage something like that.

Dito new year!

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Old Tuesday 8th January 2019, 15:33   #30
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snip

When working from a hide, a 300-800mm zoom (1200mm with 1.5 TC!) at 3kg would be very useful though.
5 axis IS would probably make it handholdable as well, at least for a few minutes.

snip
Dito new year!
I have seen a guy with such a lens IRL. His wife carried one backpack with the lens, he himself carried another one with the camera body (I cannot remember if there were two bodies) and another smaller lens (looked more like a macro). The tripod I think he had over the shoulder. So two people to carry the gear of one photographer. I am glad I do not have such a monster!

Niels
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Old Tuesday 8th January 2019, 16:00   #31
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I have seen a guy with such a lens IRL. His wife carried one backpack with the lens, he himself carried another one with the camera body (I cannot remember if there were two bodies) and another smaller lens (looked more like a macro). The tripod I think he had over the shoulder. So two people to carry the gear of one photographer. I am glad I do not have such a monster!

Niels
The sigma 300-800mm zoom is a beast, 4.5+ kg,
and close to 50 cm long and it has no VR/IS.
Obviously you need a sturdy tripod for that.

But I was talking/dreaming about the eqv. focal length on MFT.
Only 3 kg would be very nice and handy for that focal length.
And with 5-axis IS the tripod requirement would be quite modest.

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Old Tuesday 8th January 2019, 16:11   #32
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The sigma 300-800mm zoom is a beast, 4.5+ kg,
and close to 50 cm long and it has no VR/IS.
Obviously you need a sturdy tripod for that.

But I was talking/dreaming about the eqv. focal length on MFT.
Only 3 kg would be very nice and handy for that focal length.
And with 5-axis IS the tripod requirement would be quite modest.

I shoot the PanaLeica 100-400 which is the 200-800 equivalent. In good light it is great, and I do not own a tripod (or at least my tripod has not yet made it to the same country where I am). Take a look at https://www.birdforum.net/gallery/sh...10/ppuser/7427 which is reduced size and therefore even have lost a slight bit of feather definition compared to the full size.

Niels
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Old Tuesday 8th January 2019, 17:11   #33
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I shoot the PanaLeica 100-400 which is the 200-800 equivalent. In good light it is great, and I do not own a tripod (or at least my tripod has not yet made it to the same country where I am). Take a look at https://www.birdforum.net/gallery/sh...10/ppuser/7427 which is reduced size and therefore even have lost a slight bit of feather definition compared to the full size.

Niels
I seldom shoot in good light, unfortunately. And I'm addicted to short DOF.

The 100-400 Panasonic is a nice lens, played around with it a bit on the G9. Also dropped a bit in price lately around here (and so has the G9), so it's good value for money.

But I would prefer something with a bit faster f-stop. The Leica 200/2.8 has passed through my mind. A bit short perhaps. 250/2.8 would have been better.
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Old Wednesday 9th January 2019, 14:24   #34
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The sigma 300-800mm zoom is a beast, 4.5+ kg,
and close to 50 cm long and it has no VR/IS.
Obviously you need a sturdy tripod for that.

But I was talking/dreaming about the eqv. focal length on MFT.
Only 3 kg would be very nice and handy for that focal length.
And with 5-axis IS the tripod requirement would be quite modest.

5 axis IS? I suppose you mean 2-axis OIS, and that 5 axis IS is applicable the IBIS? Achieving rotation IS in the lens would require a magic trick, X and Y translation would be a challenge to implement.

If the 150-400mm lens is F/4 then it would probably push the scale up towards the 3 kg mark if Olympus use same optical tech/glass as today. If it's an F/4.5 then maybe 2kg.

With dual IS (2 axis OIS and 5 axis IBIS), achieving sharp pictures handheld at 400mm should be easy, we could envision as slow as 1/30s even with the rumoured built-in 1.25x TC engaged.

Now when the subject TC comes up... There is also a rumoured 2.0x TC. If that is launched with the 150-400 then it would speak in favor of the lens being F/4. If it is not intended to be used for that lens, instead intended for the 300 F/4 or 40-150 F/2.8 (or other fast lens not yet announced for that matter) then the lens could very well be F/4.5. Or the 2.0x TC rumour is false. If the built-in TC is true then it could very well be 1.25 even though it sounds a bit odd at first glance:
400 F/4 --> 500 F/5
400 F/4.5 --> 500 F/5.6

If the TC is 1.4 then we would either get:
400 F/4 --> 560 F/5.6
400 F/4.5 --> 560 F/6.3

Note that the latter is same speed as the Panasonic 100-400 however with larger zoom range (100-560), dual IS support and most important 1 1/3 stops faster (89mm front lens diameter instead of 63mm). Maybe that's how Olympus will position that new lens? Priced competitively it would certainly attract many presumtive users in search for a highly portable, weather proof setup capable of delivering good results as long as light conditions are OK (say calling for ISO 1600 or less with the existing sensor as far as I am concerned). I know from own experience that 560 F/8 with camera IBIS only can easily be operated hand-held for sharp results (Canon 400 F/5.6 + 1.4 Extender + Metabones), adding 2 axis OIS would be really sweet.
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Old Thursday 10th January 2019, 15:40   #35
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5 axis IS? I suppose you mean 2-axis OIS, and that 5 axis IS is applicable the IBIS? Achieving rotation IS in the lens would require a magic trick, X and Y translation would be a challenge to implement.

If the 150-400mm lens is F/4 then it would probably push the scale up towards the 3 kg mark if Olympus use same optical tech/glass as today. If it's an F/4.5 then maybe 2kg.
I meant IBIS + Lens IS in combination. I suspect the combo is superior with tele lenses and extra useful for video.
IBIS only is more efficient at shorter focal length.
(To compensate "roll" by in-lens IS would be extremely tricky, yes!)

I think (and hope) Olympus will avoid getting close to the diffraction limit with the TC and keep the lens at f/4.
But of course for handholding 3 kg is not optimal. But maybe they could surprise with some new lighter lens tech.

A 2x TC would probably be more realistic to use on a f2.8 prime lens.
IQ will probably not be stellar anyway even though the extremely sharp Leica 200/2.8
seems to to pretty OK.

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Old Thursday 17th January 2019, 10:09   #36
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New teaser from Olympus:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnT9qOy42yc

The settings are nature/landscape photography this time.
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Old Thursday 17th January 2019, 10:28   #37
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The latest I got was a test e-mail, sent out talking about a new release with a selling link to the E-M1 II and a blank slot for something else. Looks like they are practicing on me.
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Old Thursday 17th January 2019, 10:44   #38
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New teaser from Olympus:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnT9qOy42yc

The settings are nature/landscape photography this time.
I wonder why they still tease such brief views of the camera when there are already good quality pictures of it out there
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Old Thursday 17th January 2019, 14:51   #39
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More rumors:

"Video specs are on par with the GH5s, autofocus equal to the Sony A9, best EVF in the industry!"

"Iso 2500 on the x looks like 1600 on the Em1.2 probably. Like I said, a bit better than a D500"

C-AF Tracking is “as good as or better than sony a9,better than my d4s for sure”

“No blackouts. Best EVF in the industry.”

"150-400mm MFT lens: – Will probably be on market in late 2019"

"The software correction for artifacts is next level. You can easily use high rez for “moving landscapes”, e.g trees moving in the wind (not a storm, mind you) and it looks like an organic photo at 100%."

https://www.43rumors.com/some-more-e...-the-industry/

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Old Saturday 19th January 2019, 13:15   #40
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More leaked information:

Weight 997g
Body (WxHxD) 144.4 x 146.8 x 75.4mm
Effective Resolution 20.4 megapixels
Continuous Shooting Speed 18 fps
50 MP Handheld High Res shot functionality. Building on the HiRes innovation on the E-M1 MK II where a tripod was required, the E-M1X can now take a 50mp HiRes shot handheld. Using a tripod it can now produce 80mp images.
World's best Image stabilization: In combination with a M.Zuiko IS PRO lens, this technology enables the 5-axis sync IS to compensate for approx. 7.5 shutter speed steps.
Totally new AF system with various AF target modes and settings and intelligent subject tracking.


Read more: https://photorumors.com/2019/01/18/m...#ixzz5d3iap2bQ
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Old Tuesday 22nd January 2019, 20:02   #41
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Full specs for the E-M1X:

https://www.43rumors.com/ft5-these-a...l-e-m1x-specs/
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Old Wednesday 23rd January 2019, 11:12   #42
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There seems to be a lot of disappointment over what's not in the specs rather than what is! The C-AF needs to be top notch otherwise there's not a lot of new stuff there for bird photography - we'll see when the test reports are published.
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Old Wednesday 23rd January 2019, 22:23   #43
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There seems to be a lot of disappointment over what's not in the specs rather than what is! The C-AF needs to be top notch otherwise there's not a lot of new stuff there for bird photography - we'll see when the test reports are published.
Yes I saw that. I agree that the C-AF tracking will be critically important and that we must wait for independent testing and not necessarily believe the hype we hear at the launch event.

I'm personally more interested in the new lenses that might be announced. We wait pretty long in-between announcements for new lenses from Olympus and tomorrow the rumor is there will be more than one plus a road map.

Dave
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Old Thursday 24th January 2019, 08:55   #44
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150-400 will be f4.5 with 1.25x TC but it looks as big as the comparable f4:s out there. Around 3 kg probably.
Available 2020.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/619236...-teleconverter

E-M1x review (in progress):

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/oly...ew-in-progress

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Old Thursday 24th January 2019, 11:52   #45
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The 2x converter will fit the current 40-150mm F2.8 and 300mm F4 lenses as well as the new 150-400mm so that's one good point. I'm thinking of getting the 1.4x some time but will wait for the tests on the 2x - though I'm not expecting any miracles there!

The AF on the EM1X isn't looking to be anything special as far as wildlife is concerned, though most of the subjects tried seem to be sports-related so it's hard to be sure until they give it to someone with experience of birds-in-flight. There's always the possibility of future upgrades to fine-tune it to subjects' requirements but that's for later. At the moment, with no obvious improvements in 'rolling shutter' effects when using the silent mode, there's nothing for us to get too excited about.
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Old Friday 25th January 2019, 02:43   #46
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Focal length equivalency

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.........I shoot the PanaLeica 100-400 which is the 200-800 equivalent. ............

Niels
These comparisons on equivalent reach were fine when all cameras had sensors with resolutions of 12 to 16 MP. But when the gap between sensor resolution widens you need to consider the resolution of the sensors. One way to look at it is that a Full Frame sensor has a built in APS-C sensor and a 4:3 sensor. As an example the Nikon Z7 has 46 MP at full resolution, 19.5 MP DX Crop and 12 MP 4:3 sensor.

If a lens projects an object to the full width of an OM-D 4:3 sensor (17.3mm) the image will be 5184 pixels wide (sensor is 5184x3888). The same lens will also project the same width on a FF sensor. The full frame sensor is 35.9 mm wide and 8256x5504 pixels. So the image width in pixels on the FF sensor, to the 17.3mm width, will be 8256*17.3/35.9=3979 pixels. This compares with 5184 on the OM-D so the crop factor is 5184/3979=1.30. Not 2.0. For a 16MP 4:3 sensor the crop factor is less at 1.16.

The argument that number of pixels don't matter is subjective but for me it is important. The images from my first two fixed lens cameras do not fill a 4K display. The images taken with my GH1 are great but with a little cropping sometimes do not fill a 4K display. My present camera has a 24MP sensor (6000x4000) but it will not fill an 8K display.

What I've found is that since 2010 the quality of the images I've taken on three different cameras are all very good and the only reason to change camera is for more resolution on the sensor. On my RAW developer I can't really distinguish between an image taken in 2010 and one in 2019. Sorry if this rambled on a bit.
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Old Friday 25th January 2019, 06:48   #47
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I'm personally more interested in the new lenses that might be announced. We wait pretty long in-between announcements for new lenses from Olympus and tomorrow the rumor is there will be more than one plus a road map.

Dave
Also more interested in the lenses. But the lens announcement is kind of a yawn I think since it doesn't give much new info, and the new info they give isn't too exciting. They are only announcing "the development" of the 150-400 f4.5. No pricing, dimensions, or weight. Expected availability is 2020. They do claim it will be compact and lightweight, but that might just be a comparison to an 800 mm lens for a full frame camera--that's how they marketed the 300m f4.

The only other super telephoto listed on the roadmap is not in the pro line, and lacks specifics but looks to be something like a 100-400 mm lens based on the map diagram. But since it is not in the pro line I'm skeptical it will match the quality of the PL 100-400. But this could be a nice development for those who find the cost of the PL 100-400 prohibitive.

They do say the 2x teleconverter will be available sometime this year, and claim it will be possible to shoot handheld at 2000 mm equivalent. So that indicates it can be combined with the 150-400 with the built-in 1.25x teleconverter enabled, though image quality of such a combo remains to be seen. They also say you can use the 2x on the 300 mm F4; seems mildly interesting if you know you are going to be shooting most things at a distance, but is a pretty small field-of-view (as well as slow) to be stuck with if you have to shoot something big or close. But could be good for, e.g., shorebirds.
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Old Friday 25th January 2019, 21:36   #48
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Yes Jim,
I agree with you. The whole "event" was a bit disappointing. First of all the new camera itself is not really what I want (or most micro-4/3 enthusiasts) and its behind the competition in some ways (EVF, video, and maybe the AF tracking... we'll have to wait to see but it seems like they prioritized motor sports over wildlife or BIF). I was hoping for at least 1 prime super telephoto on the road map with a focal length longer than 300. I knew it might not happen but I was hopeful based on the sports/action oriented target market for the big new MX1 camera. The new zoom lens could be really excellent, but it is probably more than a year off for Pete's sake. Then in the shorter focal lengths, almost everything on the map is a zoom, and no estimated timerframes for any of them. The only primes suggested on the map are "bright" which suggests to me that they will be more huge expensive lenses with f/1.2 maximum aperture (or even faster?). Not what I was hoping for. In my opinion the Olympus system with its high res mode should have more ultra-wide choices. I'd like to see 1 or 2 really nice wide primes without the bulbous front element to take filters more easily, and not insanely fast to keep the size and price down. Something like a 10 or 10.5mm f/2.8. Someone on the other forum said that maybe Olympus looked at what it takes to make a really good prime ultra-wide and just decided they could almost get the same quality with a zoom that has broader appeal. It does look like one of the planned zooms might be something like ~8-28mm or something, and that might be a very nice landscape lens. Still at this point with such a full-fledged system I think more wide primes are overdue now. For that matter I wouldn't mind seeing several new or upgraded smallish f/2 or f/2.8 primes, maybe weather-sealed, including a longer macro at say 100 or maybe 125mm. Olympus is such a great camera for macro with their automatic focus stacking features, but still only the 60mm macro. I know it's a nice lens, but having the choice of a longer macro with more working distance would be nice. I don't think I'm the only one who's been hoping for a lot of this, but Olympus is doing their own thing. Oh well.

Dave

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Old Saturday 26th January 2019, 15:20   #49
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I wouldn't mind seeing several new or upgraded smallish f/2 or f/2.8 primes, maybe weather-sealed, including a longer macro at say 100 or maybe 125mm. Olympus is such a great camera for macro with their automatic focus stacking features, but still only the 60mm macro. I know it's a nice lens, but having the choice of a longer macro with more working distance would be nice. I don't think I'm the only one who's been hoping for a lot of this, but Olympus is doing their own thing. Oh well.
Dave,

That is a good point about a longer macro lens. I have actually been using my PL100-400 in that capacity on my E-M1 mk. ii, since it has about a 50 inch minimum focus distance, and allows you to stand off while still giving up to .25 reproduction. It works great for, e.g., dragonflies and larger butterflies, but you really need a larger image for the smaller stuff. I'm currently considering lugging around another body with the 60 mm macro attached, but I would much prefer to have one lens that would allow me to both stand off and get a larger image when necessary (or at least an alternative that's more versatile than the 60 mm).
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Last edited by Jim M. : Saturday 26th January 2019 at 15:28.
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Old Saturday 26th January 2019, 20:42   #50
njlarsen
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An extension ring would allow the PL100-400 to focus closer. I do not know if any are made that allow the full electronic functions to come across, though.

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