black crow
Well-known member
Hey pechelman, great idea and you reminded me I want to buy a microscope. Thanks. Now someday if I live on and on I'll get that swaro and need those eye cups so I'll buy them and just keep them on hand.
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Swarovski Habicht 8x30 W (built in 2009) (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter black crow
- Start date
black crow
Well-known member
Quit saying the EII is dull guys, you're bumming my trip.:-C Say instead that "the Habicht makes most other bins look dull". I can live with that.
Try the Habicht. If you can use it, get it. If you can't use it, forget it.
You shouldn't have to go looking for eye cups to put on it so you can use it comfortably. Swarovski could have modified them by now if they had wanted to do so.
And chances are that most of the time you wouldn't notice how bright it is compared to the E2 anyway:smoke:.
Bob
black crow
Well-known member
That was always the part that I was unsure of. The brightness issue. For some a small degree can be a major thing when describing their favored choice. It's easy enough for me to be swayed by such reports at times and then when in hand find myself wondering what the big deal was.
So one day down the road I'll get a pair and find out. I can easily do it now or later. However my love affair right now with the EII is best left to play itself out (if it is going to) before I go off looking for something better. And I have the EII 10x on the way. So it's best to leave all this as an uncertainty for now. If I was dissatisfied with the EII in some way then I'd be way more aggressive about this. As it is I've cooled on the idea of buying the Swaro at this time. But one day I'll likely be ready to find out for myself.
As to the eye cups I see no problem in modifying a binocular if it will improve its performance. I've been doing that with backpacking and survival gear for about 30 years. It's fun and it often works. Why Swarovski hasn't taken it on is one of those mysteries, like dark matter, that I just don't understand.
So one day down the road I'll get a pair and find out. I can easily do it now or later. However my love affair right now with the EII is best left to play itself out (if it is going to) before I go off looking for something better. And I have the EII 10x on the way. So it's best to leave all this as an uncertainty for now. If I was dissatisfied with the EII in some way then I'd be way more aggressive about this. As it is I've cooled on the idea of buying the Swaro at this time. But one day I'll likely be ready to find out for myself.
As to the eye cups I see no problem in modifying a binocular if it will improve its performance. I've been doing that with backpacking and survival gear for about 30 years. It's fun and it often works. Why Swarovski hasn't taken it on is one of those mysteries, like dark matter, that I just don't understand.
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I doubt if Swarovski sells enough of the Habicht's to make it worthwhile to design a new eye cup or update it in anyway. Their focus now is on their roofs EL's, SLC's and CL's which are their major sellers. In fact if you want one you better get them why you can. They could go the way of the Nikon 8x32 SE.
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black crow
Well-known member
Well the fact that they don't sell it in the US is telling in my suspicious mind. Why improve a binocular that costs $1000 when it' might be a little better than the one you're selling for twice that or more? Same for the Nikon EII. If a lot of people who are buying roofs looked through these guys I can't imagine them not selling. And if they didn't sell after being looked at I'd become suspicious of the rationality of some of those buyers. From my experience with roofs at cost up to $2000 I have to say these under $500 porros are some seriously great optics. Enough so that I like them more than my roof alphas on a purely optical basis.
Well tomorrow I get to look at a $2600 Zeiss Victory 8x42 roof and I'm going to put it up against my EII and see which way the wind blows. If I like the EII about as well optically then I'll know this isn't all in my head.
Well tomorrow I get to look at a $2600 Zeiss Victory 8x42 roof and I'm going to put it up against my EII and see which way the wind blows. If I like the EII about as well optically then I'll know this isn't all in my head.
Hermann
Well-known member
There's an easy solution to the eye cup issue: Use the green rubber eyecups of the 7x42 GA/10x40 GA. Problem solved.
The difference in clarity and contrast is quite obvious in ANY light.
Hermann
The people have voted for roof's because of their compactness and because they are easier to make waterproof and a lot of people think the porro's are simply old fashioned looking so that is where the market went but you are right in that the manufacturers make more money on roofs so that is where their focus is. An updated porro could match the alpha roofs but since the manufacturers aren't updating them with new coatings and features they are losing ground IMO. When you compare your EII's to the Zeiss SF Roof 8x42 tomorrow really look at contrast. When I had my last EII I know it is unpopular to say because a lot of people love their EII's and rightly so but I feel the EII is losing ground in the area of contrast compared to the alpha roofs. Hermann is right about using the GA eye cups on the 8x30 Habicht W. It solves the eye cup issues on the Habicht and Swarovski will send them to you if you ask. I had them on my Habicht when I had it. The Habicht is brighter and it does have better contrast than EII. The Habicht has amazing transmission. I had both binoculars at the same time. My issues with the Habicht were glare and a tight focuser. But you can deal with the focuser and you may not experience glare because it seems to vary between people and how you use your binoculars.
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My guess is that Swarovski periodically upgraded the glass in them when these improvements were added to their other binoculars. We all know that Swarovski's Serial Number system gives the dates of their construction. And re-designing eye cups for them can't be all that difficult.
As you note, Swarovski can decide not to make them any more.
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black crow
Well-known member
That seems to make good sense. There have been enough testimonials that I have little doubt that the Habicht is the superior optic to the EII. Should be as it costs over twice as much, wouldn't you agree?
For the money the EII is an amazing optic IMO. Even as inexperienced a I am it only took a minute for me to recognize this was better than all my other roof optics except maybe that Swarovski 8x50B (but it was every bit as good in center clarity imo).
Usually for me there is some initial doubt when comparing many roofs I've owned as to which was superior and it took some use and time to figure that out but this was different for sure. I KNEW immediately I had something special that I had just paid $485 for. The Habicht must be amazing and I want to see that for myself down the road a bit.
henry link
Well-known member
Pay no attention to the price difference. The 8x30 Habicht is not at all a clear winner over the 8x30 EII. There are easily demonstrable optical weaknesses in the Habicht, and why not ? It's a nearly one hundred year old design that hasn't changed at all, except for coatings, since the first one I bought in 1986. I still have one I bought about 1990 which star tests identically, with the same high spherical and chromatic aberrations, as the one I bought two years ago and has exactly the same deficient baffling. The basic optical design of the EII is at least as sophisticated if not superior to the Habicht, especially the eyepiece design, which is better in every respect than the old 6-element Erfle in the Habicht.
When it comes to anti-reflection coatings Swarovski probably beats everyone else at the moment and the Habichts benefit in particular because they are such simple designs with only 12 glass to air surfaces in the 8x30/10x40 and only 10 in the 7x42 (the Swarovisions have 20.) Brightness and accurate color are the 8x30 Habicht's forte, but in every other category it is easily surpassed by several other 8x30/32 Porros I have around.
Henry
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Gijs van Ginkel
Well-known member
Henry,
In 1918 the Swarovski son, who started the binocular making was not even born or a little baby, so a construction of almost 100 years old??, but I understand that you want to make a strong statement. The present Habicht is indeed a simpler construction as the Nikon EII and it has its limitations. Although the optical construction of the EII is quite different from the Habicht and the field of view is very pleasant, the deal breaker for me is its low handling comfort (at least for me) of the EII, while I hardly ever suffered from glare problems with the Habicht.
Gijs van Ginkel
In 1918 the Swarovski son, who started the binocular making was not even born or a little baby, so a construction of almost 100 years old??, but I understand that you want to make a strong statement. The present Habicht is indeed a simpler construction as the Nikon EII and it has its limitations. Although the optical construction of the EII is quite different from the Habicht and the field of view is very pleasant, the deal breaker for me is its low handling comfort (at least for me) of the EII, while I hardly ever suffered from glare problems with the Habicht.
Gijs van Ginkel
henry link
Well-known member
Right Gijs, I should have made it clear that I meant the basic design (cemented doublet achromat, Porro Prism and 6-element Erfle) dates from 1924. In the early years it was Zeiss, Leitz and others actually making the binoculars from that design. Of course the EII is not so different, except for the eyepiece.
Henry
Henry
14Goudvink
Well-known member
The 8x30 Habicht is smaller than the 8x30 E2 so it provides a different ergonomic experience. I prefer the way the E2 feels (more bin to wrap your hands around).
Compared to the ease of use of the E2 the Habicht eyepiece with its short ER and simple design feels, well, primitive, even without glasses.
I used to have a SV 8x32. Sure it was a bit brighter and had a bit more micro-contrast than the E2, but in many situations it tended to wash out a bit, especially in summer, so often I got the impression that all things considered the E2 showed me more detail, especially as I can hold the E2 very still. In any daylight situation the E2 just keeps on performing.
A fov of 136m at 1,000m with 3D is OK; 154m at 1,000m with 3D is WOW.
What I wanted to say is that extra brightness and micro-contrast are nice, but these are only two aspects of the complete viewing (and user) experience.
George
Compared to the ease of use of the E2 the Habicht eyepiece with its short ER and simple design feels, well, primitive, even without glasses.
I used to have a SV 8x32. Sure it was a bit brighter and had a bit more micro-contrast than the E2, but in many situations it tended to wash out a bit, especially in summer, so often I got the impression that all things considered the E2 showed me more detail, especially as I can hold the E2 very still. In any daylight situation the E2 just keeps on performing.
A fov of 136m at 1,000m with 3D is OK; 154m at 1,000m with 3D is WOW.
What I wanted to say is that extra brightness and micro-contrast are nice, but these are only two aspects of the complete viewing (and user) experience.
George
black crow
Well-known member
Good points for sure. I have really no sizeable complaints about the Nikons. I had a chance to view mine up against a Zeiss Victory 8x42 today which costs $2600 and to my eye there was no noticeable difference dead center outside of brightness and contrast. They put the Zeiss to the test. The Zeiss won of course but it was very close to a tie in dead center sharpness and detail. Those Zeiss rock. The EII also rocks. I'll have the 10x in a few days and my friends Zeiss Victory 10x42 arrives then also so I'll get to compare those. I'm very very happy with the EII. I'm not buying anything new for awhile.
Theo98
Eurasian Goldfinch
It makes sense that the Zeiss would beat the EII at contrast and brightness. Bigger aperture and more modern coatings.
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Gijs van Ginkel
Well-known member
Henri,post 33,
You hit the nail on the head: porro's are invented and used from about 170 years ago, roof prisms (all types) 100 or more years ago, coating technology since 1935 an optimal optical glass types sinc Fraunhofer and Schott's investigations and productions since about 200-150 years ago. Moreover materials sciences did yield very well constructed and strong material for housing, armor etc. Swarovski used that old design of the Habicht to make it with proper glass types and optimal coatings to a product that is very strong and sturdy to such extent that it is used by different military forces and as far as I know also quite a bit by hunters. The result for the Habicht is a unusual bright image with perfect color reproduction as well as waterproof instruments despite some shortcomings which are discussed here over and over. Nikon could have done the same considering its technological knowhow but made the choice not to: the EII has the advantage certainly of a larger FOV but that is about it for me.
Gijs van Ginkel
You hit the nail on the head: porro's are invented and used from about 170 years ago, roof prisms (all types) 100 or more years ago, coating technology since 1935 an optimal optical glass types sinc Fraunhofer and Schott's investigations and productions since about 200-150 years ago. Moreover materials sciences did yield very well constructed and strong material for housing, armor etc. Swarovski used that old design of the Habicht to make it with proper glass types and optimal coatings to a product that is very strong and sturdy to such extent that it is used by different military forces and as far as I know also quite a bit by hunters. The result for the Habicht is a unusual bright image with perfect color reproduction as well as waterproof instruments despite some shortcomings which are discussed here over and over. Nikon could have done the same considering its technological knowhow but made the choice not to: the EII has the advantage certainly of a larger FOV but that is about it for me.
Gijs van Ginkel
The green rubber eye cups will solve the eye cups problem if Swarovski makes them a free option with the purchase of an 8x30. It will also, in all likelihood, increase their sales.
Seeing the differences in clarity and contrast in ANY light between the 2 binoculars is based on each users individual attributes. How do you measure clarity?
Bob
black crow
Well-known member
If anyone checked out that review I posted in the OP. He seems to really think the addiction of sunshades to the front objective lenses dramatically improved performance of the Swaro. Any thoughts?
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