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- Magnification and move vision:

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Old Friday 17th January 2020, 14:26   #151
Pileatus
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Originally Posted by Rico70 View Post
I undoubtedly agree with the "recognition time", as I have already mentioned several times. I have never done careful studies if the time increases in proportion to the magnification, but I'm in complete disagreement with the attempt to argue that greater magnification decreases the visibility of detail due to the shake. And that therefore a 7x will be more detailed than a 10x (for example).

This is not science! ... this is a huge nonsense ...

Exactly like what was written in the article that David claims, without even having noticed that following the calculations, the result does not agree with the curve represented (that is "waste paper"!).

Do not you agree, Gijs?
Any birder with enough real world experience will tell you you are wrong. In windy conditions, for example, a 10X can be useless where the 7X will reveal important identification details. The "failure" of the 10X is handshake due to wind. Any experienced spotting scope user will tell you they often reduce magnification due to wind vibration on the tripod.

Your persistence that higher magnification, regardless of handshake effect, is always superior cannot be supported by end-user field data. You seem to be arguing that greater details appear in higher magnifications whether the user perceives them or not. Such an idea is incorrect.
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Old Friday 17th January 2020, 14:33   #152
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Originally Posted by Rico70 View Post
I undoubtedly agree with the "recognition time", as I have already mentioned several times. I have never done careful studies if the time increases in proportion to the magnification, but I'm in complete disagreement with the attempt to argue that greater magnification decreases the visibility of detail due to the shake. And that therefore a 7x will be more detailed than a 10x (for example).

This is not science! ... this is a huge nonsense ...

Exactly like what was written in the article that David claims, without even having noticed that following the calculations, the result does not agree with the curve represented (that is "waste paper"!).

Do not you agree, Gijs?
Rico
I suggest there is a magnification threshold, at around 10-12x up to which the perception of detail increases with magnification as you suggest.

Above this threshold, lets say from 15x and higher, using hand-held instruments, the perception of useful and usable detail decreases with magnification. The detail is made available by the binocular but the effect of bino tremble makes this detail unusable.

This is my pratical experience not a theory.

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Old Friday 17th January 2020, 15:27   #153
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I suggest there is a magnification threshold, at around 10-12x up to which the perception of detail increases with magnification as you suggest.

Above this threshold, lets say from 15x and higher, using hand-held instruments, the perception of useful and usable detail decreases with magnification. The detail is made available by the binocular but the effect of bino tremble makes this detail unusable.
In my opinion, this is impossible. I understand your very high level of moderation, which I admire and carry in my heart, and which makes itself clear in the best form. On this I can only take off my hat.

But 15x limit (or other) could be inconsistent with the rest, since it is not possible to say that 2+2= 4 and after say also that 4+4= 7

I hope this metaphor is clear. The greater detail (e.g. 2x) is there and will be visible, or it is not there and therefore there is some unknown factor that somehow makes the 15x less detailed than the 30x (for example).

If the greatest detail is there and is present when the two binoculars are compared on tripod, why on earth 2+2= 4, but 4+4= 7 (for example)?




ps:
I recommend to let's leave aside personal experiences (which are conditioned by too many subjectivities both of the user and of the binoculars, and of the environment) to focus on the objective principles that regulate magnification and shake vision.
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Old Friday 17th January 2020, 15:49   #154
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In windy conditions, for example, a 10X can be useless where the 7X will reveal important identification details. The "failure" of the 10X is handshake due to wind.
And why should it? has the 10x changed the wind?

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You seem to be arguing that greater details appear in higher magnifications whether the user perceives them or not.
You are distorting almost everything I say, to say what you want.
But I guess you didn't read correctly or didn't understand what I wrote.
If you have questions for clarification, I am more than helpful, but if you have unnecessary controversies, keep them to yourself and adjust with the moderator.
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Old Friday 17th January 2020, 16:18   #155
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And why should it? has the 10x changed the wind?


You are distorting almost everything I say, to say what you want.
But I guess you didn't read correctly or didn't understand what I wrote.
If you have questions for clarification, I am more than helpful, but if you have unnecessary controversies, keep them to yourself and adjust with the moderator.
Yes, by all means, clarify.
Please discuss the effects of wind induced handshake on perception vis-a-vis binocular magnification. Limit response to handheld instruments.
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Old Friday 17th January 2020, 16:50   #156
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In my opinion, this is impossible. I understand your very high level of moderation, which I admire and carry in my heart, and which makes itself clear in the best form. On this I can only take off my hat.

But 15x limit (or other) could be inconsistent with the rest, since it is not possible to say that 2+2= 4 and after say also that 4+4= 7

I hope this metaphor is clear. The greater detail (e.g. 2x) is there and will be visible, or it is not there and therefore there is some unknown factor that somehow makes the 15x less detailed than the 30x (for example).

If the greatest detail is there and is present when the two binoculars are compared on tripod, why on earth 2+2= 4, but 4+4= 7 (for example)?




ps:
I recommend to let's leave aside personal experiences (which are conditioned by too many subjectivities both of the user and of the binoculars, and of the environment) to focus on the objective principles that regulate magnification and shake vision.
Unfortunately Rico the practical fact is that the experiences of everyone on here is that at magnifications higher than 10x the extra detail captured by the binoculars is not accessible or usable due to effects of bino shake and even 10x can be unusable on a windy day.

These are real and consistent experiences and no amount of theory can deny these.

Lee
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Old Friday 17th January 2020, 17:04   #157
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Originally Posted by Pileatus View Post
discuss the effects of wind induced handshake on perception vis-a-vis binocular magnification
the wind effect is comparable to the hand effect, and in a controlled test (avoiding subjectivity), it will produce the same movement in any binocular with any magnification (excluding ergonomic factors, weight, etc.).

Now, if the shake is the same, how is it possible that for example the 7x is more detailed than the 10x?

The answer is that it is impossible and that in this case it is only an appearance, a mental perception, a cerebral illusion, as also @interiception had mentioned here
https://www.birdforum.net/showpost.p...&postcount=134

The fact of not seeing the motion of the hand (or of the wind), or in any case of seeing less of this effect of the shake with 7x, does not mean that you are seeing more details, but on the contrary that you are seeing less of it.
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