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19/11/2012 New LEICA GEOVID

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Old Wednesday 16th January 2013, 22:43   #26
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The claims to great depth appear overblown, if they mean an exaggerated 3-D effect from widely spaced objectives. Measuring from enlarged images, the Zeiss HT objectives are spaced about 6mm wider than the eyes. Zeiss doesn't mention this as an advantage (and shouldn't). The new Leica adds another 4mm. Compared to a conventional Porro, whose objectives are spaced roughly twice as far apart as the eyes, that is mighty small.

Just advertising doing its job! Watch out, as ever.
Ron
Mmmm... my initial enthusiasm has been tempered by what you wrote above and Leif's question about possible higher cost of manufacturing Perger prisms. Perhaps this isn't the great leap forward for porros that I had hoped for since porros' greater depth perception and 3-D effect are in large part why I prefer them over roofs. The other reason is that since they're a cheaper to make you can get near alpha quality for a fraction of the cost.

If Perger prisms are more expensive to manufacture than traditional porros and if they lose their 3-D advantage, then they're merely "roofs" in porro's clothing. You might also see the large imager scale "roof illusion" with them.

Also, now that dielectric coatings can get 99.99% reflectivity from S-P prisms, I wonder what advantage the Pergers have over A/K or SP prisms other than the "additional beam paths have no impact on the observation beam path so the prisms are suitable for a pure observation binocular," as Leif said (see I'm giving you credit!), which means they are advantageous for rangefinders at least. I also wonder if this means the Geovids will lose their blue bias?

If Perger had come up with these back in the aluminum coatings days, the straight through roof style design would have taken a faster track evolutionary path rather than going through the phase coatings and aluminum-silver-dielectric roof prism cycle, which made roofs take a long time to come up to the light transmission standards of much cheaper porros. Some porros still beat the light transmission of the alphas.

The other question the "banana bulkiness" issue raises is like the midsized Zeiss FLs, which don't use the A/K prisms of their bigger brothers, if Leica might not use Pergers in their midsized Ultravids bur stick with the SPs to keep their size small?

If nothing else, at least we're finally seeing new technology being employed at the top level rather than another incremental upgrade.

<B>

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Old Thursday 17th January 2013, 00:55   #27
Holger Merlitz
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Mmmm... my initial enthusiasm has been tempered by what you wrote above and Leif's question about possible higher cost of manufacturing Perger prisms. Perhaps this isn't the great leap forward for porros that I had hoped for since porros' greater depth perception and 3-D effect are in large part why I prefer them over roofs. The other reason is that since they're a cheaper to make you can get near alpha quality for a fraction of the cost.

If Perger prisms are more expensive to manufacture than traditional porros and if they lose their 3-D advantage, then they're merely "roofs" in porro's clothing. You might also see the large imager scale "roof illusion" with them.

Also, now that dielectric coatings can get 99.99% reflectivity from S-P prisms, I wonder what advantage the Pergers have over A/K or SP prisms other than the "additional beam paths have no impact on the observation beam path so the prisms are suitable for a pure observation binocular," as Leif said (see I'm giving you credit!), which means they are advantageous for rangefinders at least. I also wonder if this means the Geovids will lose their blue bias?

If Perger had come up with these back in the aluminum coatings days, the straight through roof style design would have taken a faster track evolutionary path rather than going through the phase coatings and aluminum-silver-dielectric roof prism cycle, which made roofs take a long time to come up to the light transmission standards of much cheaper porros. Some porros still beat the light transmission of the alphas.

The other question the "banana bulkiness" issue raises is like the midsized Zeiss FLs, which don't use the A/K prisms of their bigger brothers, if Leica might not use Pergers in their midsized Ultravids bur stick with the SPs to keep their size small?

If nothing else, at least we're finally seeing new technology being employed at the top level rather than another incremental upgrade.

<B>
I would regard these Perger prisms as the better alternative to Abbe-Koenig. They do not compete with Schmidt-Pechan, the latter still being more compact. But the SP has intrinsic problems (regarding the anti-reflex coating of some of its surfaces) which make them inferior to Porros or AK designs. Now, the Perger is probably somewhat more compact than the AK and has no roof edge, so it would be a great alternative for those who want high performance combined with a small beam offset. The problem is: There is this patent, and if these prisms are in fact restricted to be used for Leica binoculars only, then we won't see any moderately priced binoculars which take advantage of them.

Cheers,
Holger
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Old Thursday 17th January 2013, 02:09   #28
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CameralandNY is accepting orders for March delivery. $2,945.00 for the 8x

http://www.cameralandny.com/optics/site.pl?page=40047

Since everybody likes gadgets, I would not necessarily discount the rangefinder for birding. Now you can say "With these things I can tell a Greater Scaup form a Lesser Scaup at 1,719 yds.!" Or whatever distance it turns out to be ;-). Or just don't use the button.
That's less expensive than the MSRP. I'm sure it's also available in meters.

Did you order or are you waiting for the 10x to become available?

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Old Thursday 17th January 2013, 02:20   #29
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I would regard these Perger prisms as the better alternative to Abbe-Koenig. They do not compete with Schmidt-Pechan, the latter still being more compact. But the SP has intrinsic problems (regarding the anti-reflex coating of some of its surfaces) which make them inferior to Porros or AK designs. Now, the Perger is probably somewhat more compact than the AK and has no roof edge, so it would be a great alternative for those who want high performance combined with a small beam offset. The problem is: There is this patent, and if these prisms are in fact restricted to be used for Leica binoculars only, then we won't see any moderately priced binoculars which take advantage of them.

Cheers,
Holger
Unless, like Zeiss, Leica does the unthinkable and decides to offer an under $500 Terra-Trinnie ED to compete in the Volksbin market segment.

Nah, I doubt it. Leica seems to be heading in the opposite direction, toward becoming a "boutique brand" for the wealthy and professionals, where it's already at with its cameras.

I would have liked to have seen Nikon buy this patent, because unfortunately, my superpowers do not include turning lead into gold.

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Old Thursday 17th January 2013, 04:09   #30
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That's less expensive than the MSRP. I'm sure it's also available in meters.

Did you order or are you waiting for the 10x to become available?

<B>
No, that CLNY link also has the 10x too, like for $2,995. Besides, I'm not much of a rangefinder fan anyway, despite my tongue-in-cheek comment above. I don't own any kind of a rangefinder. The binocular aspect is pretty neat.
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Old Thursday 17th January 2013, 04:39   #31
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No, that CLNY link also has the 10x too, like for $2,995. Besides, I'm not much of a rangefinder fan anyway, despite my tongue-in-cheek comment above. I don't own any kind of a rangefinder. The binocular aspect is pretty neat.
I don't own one either, and at that price, I'm not likely to anytime in the near or distant future. Just estimate distance by a stone's throw. If you know how far you can throw a stone, and you want to tell how far away your target is, throw a stone. If it's closer than where the stone lands, it's "closer than a stone's throw", and if it's longer, "longer than a stone's throw". Not quite as accurate as the Leica RF, but stones are a lot cheaper.

Of course, that's a measurement technique that Superman can't use, because when he throws a rock, it goes completely around the world!

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Old Thursday 17th January 2013, 07:34   #32
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Old Thursday 17th January 2013, 10:23   #33
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Knowing Brock, it will probably be bullet (stone) proof.

The prices of the new bin will be 2.750,00 and 2.850,00 euro's and will be on the market after the German IWA in march.

Jan
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Old Thursday 17th January 2013, 10:43   #34
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Nice one Brock !
However if your a Hunter, throwing a stone to estimate the range of your potential quarry might frighten it off, unless it's a mouse, a big stone and a direct Hit !

Not really sure what the purpose of a binocular range finder is, at $3000.00 ? Wouldn't a rifle scope with a integrated range finder attached to a rifle, save time ?

Tim
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Old Thursday 17th January 2013, 14:56   #35
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Not really sure what the purpose of a binocular range finder is, at $3000.00 ? Wouldn't a rifle scope with a integrated range finder attached to a rifle, save time ?

Tim
There are some scopes with range finders built in. They don't seem nearly as popular with hunters as with a combo with binoculars. Part of that is certainly wanting to have all necessary information on hand before one shoulders the rifle. I for one don't shoulder the rifle unless I am prepared to shoot. I also need to be prepared not to shoot depending on last second information seen with the scope. In short, guns are for shooting, scopes are optically enhanced gun sights, and binoculars are seen as primary data collectors, and hunters overwhelmingly prefer the rangefinder combo in binoculars. Edit: Rangefinder cobmos eliminate one piece of kit from the field gear too.

There also seems to be the perception among the more financially well heeled hunters that high quality equipment automatically makes them better hunters. That same perception seems to also apply to some birders too. So there are both hunters and birders who will pay top end prices, hence we see products with top end prices offered.

I think the larger question is whether or not Leica sees fit to offer a binocular only version of this new porro.
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Old Thursday 17th January 2013, 17:40   #36
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Thanks to hunters for checking us brownish green suited birders out not through their rifle scopes!

"I think the larger question is whether or not Leica sees fit to offer a binocular only version of this new porro."

I agree and I bet and hope not. The patent puts up the new prism mainly for its convenience at deflecting information into and out of the beam path, not as an improvement in optical quality or cost savings. The Ultravids are so elegant and minimal, many fans point to this as a strong appeal of the brand, and it would be silly to give that up for a few mm of "plasticity" and a copycat open bridge look. Leica cuts a mighty mean roof angle in my experience.

Not that the Ultravid couldn't stand a shot in the arm, considering the activity of the other brands of late. But please, not banana-ization!
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Old Thursday 17th January 2013, 17:50   #37
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The new geovid is listed as having a 426 ft./1000 yd. FOV- Not sure if it's related to the perger prisms, but that is a significant improvement over the the Ultravid 8x42.
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Old Thursday 17th January 2013, 19:22   #38
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I suppose this is the usual conversion error. FOV in meters on the German Leica website is 130m/1000m (7.3 degrees), which corresponds to 390 ft./1000 yards.
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Old Thursday 17th January 2013, 20:02   #39
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I suppose this is the usual conversion error. FOV in meters on the German Leica website is 130m/1000m (7.3 degrees), which corresponds to 390 ft./1000 yards.
Yes, I also stumbled about this initially, calculating 125m/1000m from the 371 ft/1000 yds given in the first info in this thread, which would have been great for a 10x42. Yet Leicas metric infos give 114 m/1000m, ok, but nothing exiting.

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Old Thursday 17th January 2013, 21:53   #40
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That's a very intersting design: high end porro open bridge binoculars. I've never understood why the porro II prisms were used hardly in current designs anymore. There are many porro I binoculars on the market but AFAIK Canon is the only manufactorer that so far still has the porro II type in use, which is more compact. It comes as a surprise to me that after all these many years in binocular history, someone has found room for a new type of prism. So I can only say: Congrats, Mr. Perger!

Now Leica, keep on with that spirit of innovation and give us birders, instead of the range finder, image stabilisation in a not bulky package. Also, porro II prisms should allow even wider fields of view.

Steve

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Old Thursday 17th January 2013, 23:27   #41
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Ah yes, conversion error must be exactly what happened- someone took 130m @ 1000m and multiplied 130 by 3.28 instead of 3 to get the ft. @ 1000 yd. Too bad.
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Old Friday 18th January 2013, 01:11   #42
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Thanks to hunters for checking us brownish green suited birders out not through their rifle scopes!

"I think the larger question is whether or not Leica sees fit to offer a binocular only version of this new porro."

I agree and I bet and hope not. The patent puts up the new prism mainly for its convenience at deflecting information into and out of the beam path, not as an improvement in optical quality or cost savings. The Ultravids are so elegant and minimal, many fans point to this as a strong appeal of the brand, and it would be silly to give that up for a few mm of "plasticity" and a copycat open bridge look. Leica cuts a mighty mean roof angle in my experience.

Not that the Ultravid couldn't stand a shot in the arm, considering the activity of the other brands of late. But please, not banana-ization!
Ron
Not me, I'd like to see all counties involved in making bins including the Banana Republic license the Perger design and ring in a new era of the bananization of all closed bridge roofs! It's the only way they can make an open bridge roof w/out fear of being sued by Swarovski. I'd also like to see this design offered in yellow.

Then maybe I'd be interested in buying something other than the 8x32 EL, which remains the sole roof to fit my hands well.

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Old Friday 18th January 2013, 04:05   #43
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Not me, I'd like to see all counties involved in making bins including the Banana Republic license the Perger design and ring in a new era of the bananization of all closed bridge roofs! It's the only way they can make an open bridge roof w/out fear of being sued by Swarovski. I'd also like to see this design offered in yellow.

Then maybe I'd be interested in buying something other than the 8x32 EL, which remains the sole roof to fit my hands well.

<B>

Yes! Let's have no bananas!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT6JkceQ9FU

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Old Friday 18th January 2013, 09:11   #44
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Two brief comments.

The field of view for the 8x is only average, but 114m/km is very good for a 10x. The 10x50 Ultravid has 117m, 10x32 Ultravid 118m and 10x42 Ultravid 112m, and of these the 50 & 32 have some of the widest fields among 10x premiums. The 10x42 Nikon SE has 105m/km.

In the cut-out image, the Perger prism assembly actually looks very compact, in fact more compact than the Schmidt-Pechans in the Ultravids.

And a third comment. The underhung form factor is more comfortable to hand-hold while viewing than the normal roof straight-line design. It allows one to hold hands and arms slightly lower, and even a small difference here helps keep the arms from tiring as fast. So, this prism design would be nice to see in non-RF binoculars (and especially in stabilized binoculars) as well.

Kimmo
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Old Friday 18th January 2013, 10:35   #45
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Yes! Let's have no bananas!
Surely a few should be allowed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BI9UoJvjKA

Or for planetary observers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH3WvI_S6-k
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Old Friday 18th January 2013, 10:38   #46
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Now Leica, keep on with that spirit of innovation and give us birders, instead of the range finder, image stabilisation in a not bulky package. Also, porro II prisms should allow even wider fields of view.
Steve,

Could you elaborate some more on the subject of porro II prisms allowing wider field of view please?
After the innovations undertaken by Swarovski, Zeiss and Nikon it seems to me that increasing the FoV is THE issue left for Leica in binocular design. And very welcome, I'd say.

Renze
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Old Friday 18th January 2013, 11:00   #47
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As a dedicated planetary observer I found the detail shown very gratifying.

I have wondered for the last ten years why Leica has not introduced image stabilization in their binoculars and spotting scopes.
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Old Saturday 19th January 2013, 02:19   #48
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Steve,

Could you elaborate some more on the subject of porro II prisms allowing wider field of view please?
After the innovations undertaken by Swarovski, Zeiss and Nikon it seems to me that increasing the FoV is THE issue left for Leica in binocular design. And very welcome, I'd say.

Renze
Maybe I could comment on that: With very wide angles, the Porro I is increasing in size and at the same time also the beam-offset turns larger. This requires a bulky body and a corresponding high weight. With the Porro II, the beam offset is smaller (it equals the prism entrance diameter, while with the Porro I, the offset equals 1.41 times the prism entrance diameter). Hence, the Porro II wideangle would be somewhat less heavy. Compare the both Zeiss (blc) 8x60 submarine-commander glasses, where the Porro II was visibly slimmer and lighter than the Porro I.

Perger has mentioned in his patent that his new prisms may deliver a higher amount of vignetting than the Porro - so I guess they are not the first choice for super-wide angle binoculars. But they are a first choice for high performance binoculars with average field of view, having no roof edge and no reflective coating, and being cemented to reduce light loss.

Cheers,
Holger
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Old Sunday 20th January 2013, 00:12   #49
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Thanks, Pier! An alpha porro!!! I never thought I'd live to see the day, too bad it's a rangefinder, I would love to see this hybrid design in a birding bin, but NOT for $3,592! Izzat a new world record for the price of a pair of binoculars?

<B>
Yaaaaaaaaay!! A new alpha Porro!! :) Boooooooooo it has a rangefinder :(

@ Steve C: I agree with you that (when desired) a rangefinder device must be included in binoculars not in riflescopes. Similarly, zoom functionality must also be incorporated only in binoculars not in rifle scopes. You should be doing no physical or mental calculations or functions that distracts you from focusing on your quarry, no turning knobs, no MOA calculations, no wind speed measurement.

Do you know if Leica is attending SCI show? I might go and would like to see these binoculars.

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Old Monday 21st January 2013, 21:05   #50
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Regarding wide field, according to the Leica web site, the original Leitz Trinovid 7x42 and 8x40 from 1958 had 70 and 80 degree apparent fields. I don't know how much they weighed, or even how they performed. They were of course pre-phase correction coating.
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