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Dreadful customer service (1 Viewer)

The majority interest in RF bins is certainly in the hunting market but it is not exclusively so. There are other applications in wildlife and habitat management where they are used and seen to be used (including on television programmes) by naturalists and others who do not shoot.

Yes, but the Perger offers a rangefinding including Advanced Ballistic Compensation. It measures also the angle of the bullet traject, the airtemperature and airpressure (which influences the bullet flightway).

The people you talk about take the cheaper versions, because they don't need those extra's so you can't count them as a potential targetgroup for sales.

Jan
 
Yes, but the Perger offers a rangefinding including Advanced Ballistic Compensation. It measures also the angle of the bullet traject, the airtemperature and airpressure (which influences the bullet flightway).

The people you talk about take the cheaper versions, because they don't need those extra's so you can't count them as a potential targetgroup for sales.

Jan


There is less than Eur. 200.00 difference in price between the three current rangefinder binocular models of which the Swaro EL Range is the most expensive, offers the least ballistic assistance and with it's high optical performance is the most suitable for the 'point-and-shooters' and those with no shooting interest.

But of course you are commenting with specific reference to the target group for Leica.
 
There is less than Eur. 200.00 difference in price between the three current rangefinder binocular models of which the Swaro EL Range is the most expensive, offers the least ballistic assistance and with it's high optical performance is the most suitable for the 'point-and-shooters' and those with no shooting interest.

But of course you are commenting with specific reference to the target group for Leica.

That's correct.

There is a price difference of 500,00 euro's between the Geovid HD-R (the upgraded version of the, now no longer in the program, HD and the Geovid Perger and both are in the program of Leica.

Jan
 
There are many who think Ultravids are still the best binoculars available, no matter what the sales numbers. Of course a new Leica binocular line would be nice, but most of the optical improvements of all the premium brands have been merely incremental for quite some time. The difference for me is that Leicas are the only binoculars that feel like they were engineered by engineers, and not designed by designers.

Best response on this thread.

I far and away prefer Leicas slow approach to bringing products to the market. When they arrive, they're typically thought-through in a far better manner than its competitors. Things like non-functioning objective covers on the EL and new HT come to mind.

Looking through the rolling ball effect of the SV-EL (like a pair of aspheric glasses) has been a poor experience for me, and finding soft, out of focus spots on the viewing plane of every SV I've tried certainly makes one wonder.

The idea that the Leica HD is nearing its life cycle is the blatherings of minutia obsessed forum goers.

The "improvements" of the last 8 years have been marginal.

My experience with the Zeiss FL and Swaro EL has led me right back to the natural, warm view of the Leica, with its big sweet spot and fine reolution. A binocular is more than its view, it's the sum of its parts and Leica seemed to have figured that out better than its competitors. They're built like friggin Teutonic tanks, and the focuser works the same at -30F as it does at +90F. And the objective covers actually work :D

And I've owned as many Zeiss as Leica, and as many Swaro's as the other two combined.
 
Best response on this thread.

I far and away prefer Leicas slow approach to bringing products to the market. When they arrive, they're typically thought-through in a far better manner than its competitors. Things like non-functioning objective covers on the EL and new HT come to mind.

Looking through the rolling ball effect of the SV-EL (like a pair of aspheric glasses) has been a poor experience for me, and finding soft, out of focus spots on the viewing plane of every SV I've tried certainly makes one wonder.

The idea that the Leica HD is nearing its life cycle is the blatherings of minutia obsessed forum goers.

The "improvements" of the last 8 years have been marginal.

My experience with the Zeiss FL and Swaro EL has led me right back to the natural, warm view of the Leica, with its big sweet spot and fine reolution. A binocular is more than its view, it's the sum of its parts and Leica seemed to have figured that out better than its competitors. They're built like friggin Teutonic tanks, and the focuser works the same at -30F as it does at +90F. And the objective covers actually work :D

And I've owned as many Zeiss as Leica, and as many Swaro's as the other two combined.

Mac,

If this is the general opinion, shouldn't there be massif different sales figures, or is it just me blathering?;)?
 
Bob,

If I analize what you say correctly, you basicly say that the current dominant position of Swarovski in the optic industry mainly comes from great advertisement and clever marketing rather than offering similar optical products.

If life was only this easy.

And no, they didn't invite me either Bob;)

I agree with you that the Ultravid is a splendid optical product, but it is at the end of it's lifetime. The 8x42 HT cost 1.945,00 and the SLC 1.640,00 euro's and offer a much higher lighttransmission. The HD cost 2.035,00 euro and is NOT superior to the HT and SLC/SV as claimed earlier in this thread. It's only superior in price.
Do your math!

I think much more factors than only smart advertisement/marketing brought Swaro (and will bring Zeiss) where they are now.
Yes, the current service improvement of Leica is a big step forwards and yes, the HD is/was a great instrument. But we need more!

Jan

Jan,

That is what I said. As I pointed out Swarovski took Nikon's flat field and tweaked it a bit and then produced a campaign designed to sell it to the public.

Swarovski didn't have to invite you on one of those tours to help sell their binoculars. After the binocular buying public found out about the Swarovsion binoculars through it's campaign using the ubiquitous social media it came to you and said "I want one of those great Swarovisions!"

This policy filters down to all their binoculars. I ordered a Swarovski 8x30 Companion from Camera Land, NY. CL called SONA and had one sent to me billed to Camera Land. Instructions in it when it arrived said that if there was any problem with it to return it directly to SONA.

As for what Leica has to do, you state "We need more," which raises the question: "More of what?"

CloseFocus commented on that in his post after mine and noted that "There are many who think Ultravids are still the best binoculars available, no matter what the sales numbers. Of course a new Leica binocular line would be nice, but most of the optical improvements of all the premium brands have been merely incremental for quite some time."

Leica has not been standing still. It did come out with a lower cost Trinovid. It seems to be a version of the older Ultravid with a similar exterior covering and without HD glass which I believe Leica put into the Ultravid in 2011.

Bob
 
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Mac,

If this is the general opinion, shouldn't there be massif different sales figures, or is it just me blathering?;)?

People are mostly sheep... sales figures generally reflect marketing expertise, something at which Swarovski excels.

Personally I believe the Leica to be a better, more robust binocular than the Swaro EL, with a more natural view.
 
Hello All- This post has evolved (devolved?) into something altogether different than the original intent (talking about customer service). In any case, you can rest assured that Leica is constantly working on new products, the specifics of which I am in no position to elucidate. As far as the Perger prism being a marketing gimmick, well, that's typical forum banter with absolutely no technological insight. The Perger prism serves a very specific purpose in the RF line, and it does it better than any other current design. That's the Leica motto: build the best possible product given the technological limitations of the time. As Leica engineers push the boundaries of technology, so will products follow in line. We did it with center focusing + diopter adjustment, we did it with the wide-angle zoom eyepiece on our scopes, and we did it with the Perger prism. We continue to do it from the beginning with different glass recipes and coatings. I think if you want to keep discussing the evolution of optics, it probably belongs somewhere other than this thread.

In the meantime, since I mentioned that I was going digiscoping, here's a photo of the Tufted Duck in Oakland, California, taken with the Leica X-Vario through the Televid APO 82:
TUDU_XVario_Digiscoped_800.jpg

And the same bird taken with the Leica C:
TUDU_leicaC_Digiscoped_800.jpg

Both images were taken using Paul Sayegh's Digidapter


Cheers


David
 
David,

It did evolve (or devolve) into a discussion of Leica's low rank in sales compared to other Alpha binoculars. But that is because the finger is very often pointed at Leica's service when compared to other companies as being a big reason for this.

I simply pointed out that I thought that Leica did not market it's products as efficiently as the other companies did and this may have also contributed to it's reputed low sales and I gave some examples of what rival companies were doing.

I think that this is a worthwhile subject for discussion by Leica's management.

Bob
 
Jan,

That is what I said. As I pointed out they took Nikon's flat field and tweaked it a bit and then produced a campaign designed to sell it to the public.

Swarovski didn't have to invite you on one of those tours to help sell their binoculars. After the binocular buying public found out about the Swarovsion binoculars through it's campaign using the ubiquitous social media it came to you and said "I want one of those great Swarovisions!"

This policy filters down to all their binoculars. I ordered a Swarovski 8x30 Companion from Camera Land, NY. CL called SONA and had one sent to me billed to Camera Land. Instructions in it when it arrived said that if there was any problem with it to return it directly to SONA.

As for what Leica has to do, you state "We need more," which raises the question: "More of what?"

CloseFocus commented on that in his post after mine and noted that "There are many who think Ultravids are still the best binoculars available, no matter what the sales numbers. Of course a new Leica binocular line would be nice, but most of the optical improvements of all the premium brands have been merely incremental for quite some time."

Leica has not been standing still. It did come out with a lower cost Trinovid. It seems to be a version of the older Ultravid with a similar exterior covering and without HD glass which I believe Leica put into the Ultravid in 2011.

Bob

Bob, Mac, David.

Enter my real world.

Taking the fact in consideration that the Birdlife Protection Society of Holland is only 15 minutes away from us, it is logical that we do not have many birders as customers.
80% of our customers go on safari in Africa.
They have never heard of birding trips to Extremadura and most of them react on the brand Swarovski: "Don't these guys make crystal?".
Here goes the advertisement/marketing theory.
After comparing the Leica HD with ('till spring 2013) the FL and the EL/SV/SLC range, most of them choose green.
They are NOT influenced by marketing or others.
Here goes the sheep theory.

In our shop there is a billboard of 3 by 4 meters, showing the Great Migration in Kenia, sponsored by Leica, which name is prominent on that billboard. We have 3 showing cabins from Leica with their names on it which take 4 wall meters. Only one of 50 cm with a Swarovski name on it.
Here goes the pro bias Swarovski theory.

And still, in the A-segment we almost only sell green. Not red!!
Before 2011 the HD was sold as well as the FL, but the EL excelled both in sales.
Since the outcoming of the SV it is almost only SV and now it is SV - SLC - Trinovid (and only because of the price drop of 200 euro).

Meanwhile, Leica's competition moved forwards. We have seen the HT, Terra, Conquest HD, new Zeiss scope, Zeiss range, SLC, SV, CL 25 and 30, EL range, ATX.
What have we seen from Leica?
An upgrade of the Geovid to HD by putting fluorite ions in the focussing lens.
An upgrade of the Geovid HD to R by updating its software.
A beautifull Geovid Perger. A masterpiece, which nobody called a gimmick BTW. The use is only for a very small targetgroup. I would have put my money in a other targetgroup line.
The Trinovid, which advertisement says it is made from the best materials, of the latest technology by Leica enigineers, which turns out to be cheap copy of the Ultravid without HD.
A lot of flashy coloured bins.

The supremecy of Swarovski was not denied by Leica, but justified as a logical result of the fact that the R&D budget of Swarovski was bigger than the budget of Zeiss and leica together.

Than David came out of the blue stating Leica is superior in products as in warranty, blaming the competition (read Swarovski) of outsourcing Far East without any shown proof for such a bold statement.

Yes, once owning a Ultravid you are good for Life!!! Nobody says otherwise!!!
The current level of A-fabric bins is so high, that the little improvements are not in line with the costs. Correct!!!
But, when you are in need of a binocular and you have the opportunity to pick between an HT, HD, SLC and SV, people do NOT go for the HD.
This is the reality Leica is facing. No manipulation by marketing mambo jambo, no free trips, no sheep behaviour. Just the endresult of examin the brands!

Leica and Zeiss have such a BIG name as a brand. They are the ICONS from the past!!
I am not a Swaro lover. I am a optic geek pur sang who loves David for stating that Leica will never outsource Far East. OK, Meopta is East and not Far east;) (and I love Swaro for not outsourcing also.)

So we do need more from Leica then cosmetic changes.
But, a 7 and 8x32 in Ultravid leather like the current 42 line would be just fine.
And the same goes for the Trinovid line.
No upgrade of the HD model but a complete new setting.
Stop with the flashing colors and if Leica wants to make a limited edition, listen to Tillman Taube and bring a Icon model post WW2 in limited edition with state of the art glass.

This should cover it for this year.....

Jan
 
Jan,

It sounds like you have a very successful business and some wealthy clientele. But we never heard of it in the USA until you started talking about it here on the internet in the social medium known as Bird Forum. You may not have known it or even considered it but the public nature of the social media aspect of the give and take here acts as a type of advertising. As a result you could get some more business and not even be aware of it.

Leica, on the other hand, gives the impression that it is waiting for people to come to them. I have no suggestions for them. That's why I mentioned to Dave that it is an issue which their management should look into.

Bob
 
.....


Stop with the flashing colors and if Leica wants to make a limited edition, listen to Tillman Taube and bring a Icon model post WW2 in limited edition with state of the art glass.

.....

Jan


Yes, a 6x24 Amplivid, or one of the early Trinovid wideangle binoculars (8x40 with 175m/1000m field!) with mirror-prism system.

I also agree that the Perger could be a great opportunity, at least for the larger binoculars with 50mm objectives, where the weight of the prism matters less. Swaro SLC and Zeiss use the Abbe-Koenig prisms here, for superior transmission, and Leica could employ the Perger for the same purpose. Being a Porro, it might even add the tiny bit of extra resolution that would bring it ahead of the competition.

Cheers,
Holger
 
Jan,

It sounds like you have a very successful business and some wealthy clientele. But we never heard of it in the USA until you started talking about it here on the internet in the social medium known as Bird Forum. You may not have known it or even considered it but the public nature of the social media aspect of the give and take here acts as a type of advertising. As a result you could get some more business and not even be aware of it.

Leica, on the other hand, gives the impression that it is waiting for people to come to them. I have no suggestions for them. That's why I mentioned to Dave that it is an issue which their management should look into.

Bob

Bob,

Worldwide social media like BF is absolutely profitable for multinationals, but not for a solitair shop like mine, which is already well known in Holland and our business is only there.
Me taking part of the "boys campfire talks", is strictly for educational purposes . What I say about the Brands has been "straight in the face" spoken to them in different meetings, so for them it is no news.

BTW, I disagree with the free lunch aspect, although the expression Dutch treat....;)

Jan
 
Bob,

Taking Oetzi's philosofical words in consideration and re-reading your post I'm trying to connect the (my) real world to this Forum.
You said, you ordered a Swarovski bin at Cameraland and Sona did the rest. So, the only thing Cameraland had to do was to pick up the phone (they've probably e-mailed) get the order out and collect the profit. Sona send it to you and takes over all service and guarantee issues. So, Cameraland has no stocking costs, delivery costs, handling costs etc. like every other shop like (I imagine) Proud Papa has.

Is this what you mean by Swarovski is moving forward in logistics/marketing compared to Leica? Cameraland does not have the same agreement with Leica, Zeiss or pick a brand?
In that particular case I would compliment leica if the don't because they honour and rerspect their "brick" dealers.
I assume Cameraland can dump their Swarovski prices because of the lack of costs, so the marketing principle behind it (from Swarovski's point of view) is "We sell more".

Since Amazon is coming to Europe/Holland this is "food for thinking".

Jan
 
Since Amazon is coming to Europe/Holland this is "food for thinking". Jan

If I was in your position, Jan, I wouldn't be overly concerned about Amazon.

Although there is a strong public perception that they are always the 'cheapest' it is just a fallacy and in numerous cases the consumer can find his Pound (or Euro) better spent elsewhere.

And of course very many people do not shop on price alone and value the advice and service from their retailers.

Best wishes,
 
Mac,

If this is the general opinion, shouldn't there be massif different sales figures, or is it just me blathering?;)?

Hmmm. A BMW 3 series is a superb car, up graded with the latest tech every couple of years,and the sales figures reflect the quality and mass advertising the company put into their product. Aston Martin sell far fewer cars, advertising is minimal and, to be honest, they are a tad behind in the technology department. Be honest, which would you sooner be driving? Mass sales don't always equate with the best quality.
 
jan, CameralandNY is a brick and mortar store as well as an internet marketer, in downtown NYC, USA. Guess again.

JG,

Thanks for clearing that up.
Down here its impossible for a retailer to place the order directly and the distributor taking over everything as Bob described, so I wanted to be sure I understood correctly.

History has proven that the business developments in the USA are 10 years ahead compared to Europe. In these internet days it has been brought back less to 1 year.
Doing business as describes and done by Cameraland does not excist here AFAIK but has potential. Is it my way? No! Is it the future? I'm afraid so. Four families live of our enterprise and depend on us going North or South. Has nothing to do with guessing or smartassing ;).

Jan
 
Hmmm. A BMW 3 series is a superb car, up graded with the latest tech every couple of years,and the sales figures reflect the quality and mass advertising the company put into their product. Aston Martin sell far fewer cars, advertising is minimal and, to be honest, they are a tad behind in the technology department. Be honest, which would you sooner be driving? Mass sales don't always equate with the best quality.

Honestly?

Aston Martin 24/7!!!!!(but I drive English since 1976, sadly its from India nowadays:C).

But ofcourse you are right. Nothing is black and white.
Keeping things in context and taking 10 customers who know shit about cars, need one of that quality..... who knows what the outcome will be.

Most of our customers are "virgins" on optics and take what they find is their best choice for their purpose.
 
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