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Do you ignore Leica ?

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Old Saturday 2nd May 2015, 10:01   #51
Gijs van Ginkel
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High North,
post 50,
You are absolutely right.
Gijs
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Old Saturday 2nd May 2015, 11:50   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubador View Post
Sam

You are right about most situations but I find myself searching big areas and therefore benefit greatly from large FOVs when:
Scanning skies for raptors or hirundines.
Scanning lakes or the sea for re-surfacing ducks, divers, cormorants, seals, whales and otters.

And even at short distances an extra bit of FOV can enable you to get a grip on a fast flitting warbler or dragonfly before it disappears.

Like 'edge sharpness', FOV is just one more thing to consider among many other features, but when all other aspects balance out these factors, which can very in importance from person to person, can swing a purchasing decision.

Lee
Yes, Lee, I'd agree with that. My only point was that close to the differences are comparatively small.

I'm a keen raptor watcher, and am lucky enough to include a lot of viewing at distance over water (lakes and coastal), and fixed wing viewing in my week. For these my current preference is a 10x42 of one sort or another, here the width of the field is of secondary importance to sharpness for me.

Best wishes,
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Old Saturday 2nd May 2015, 14:07   #53
ceasar
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Originally Posted by ronh View Post
My how Leica love has boosted as of late with the +. My old BN 12x50 suffers from CA and the dreary view of its era, and my BR 10x50 has a good view but a stiff focus and stinks (literally). I liked my 8x42 BA better than either, but it was one square brick, never did figure out where to put my thumbs. I want to try the new stuff.

I rode our plowhorse (off season), but Daddy got mad when I would run her, which of course I would every chance. She seemed to enjoy it too. "Pony", not. But you can hate me a little bit.

Ron


You can try that "new stuff" model 12 x 50 for only $2749.00 at Eagle Optics.

I think I will pass on the 'new stuff" 7x42 at $2399.00. That is about $1600.00 more than I paid for my new (discontinued) 7x42 Trinovid BN which was on sale at Cabelas at the time I purchased it 8 or 9 years ago.

Bob
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Old Saturday 2nd May 2015, 14:26   #54
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I`v not tried any of the Leica Televid scopes, how do they stack up?

I`m very impressed with the aquadura coatings, I`v never had lenses stay so clean, I had Lotutec on an fl but that did`nt seem as effective to me.
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Old Saturday 2nd May 2015, 21:59   #55
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This may seem a strange question, but whenever I`v been at an optics outlet in the past couple of years the dealers tell me the same things, "Leica are out of touch", "Leica have dropped the ball", "Unless a person asks to try a Leica, I don`t even open the cabinet", this seems a shame.

..........I`m just wondering if the dealers are the ones out of touch and should plonk a Leica in front of perspective purchasers rather than keeping them locked in the cabinet.
Yes, I have heard that few months ago from an excellent provider of the three alpha binoculars, specifically for birders. The exception to his argument was the Ultravid 7x42 HD as the other two alphas do not offer comparable models--thus, he keeps it in stock. His objections were related to: a) the minimum focusing distance for Leica is inferior to the other two alphas, and b) light transmission for Leica is not at the same level as in Swarovski and top tier Zeiss.

This seller could be right, but my experience is that Leica Trinovid 8x32 BN, Ultravid 8x20, and Ultravid HD 8x42 provide an excellent "package" that Zeiss FL series (albeit they come close) do not match. By package, I mean the optic characteristics, handling, perceived durability, and service. I am not a user of post FL Zeiss models, or Swarovski, hence, do not have a comment. It is noteworthy that I am in the market for a newer 8x32, and in all likelihood, I will go for Ultravid HD rather to a Swarovski (mainly for compactness). Enjoy in good health.

PS. I will still keep the Trinovid 8x32 BN.
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Old Sunday 3rd May 2015, 11:11   #56
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Originally Posted by Samandag View Post
Yes, Lee, I'd agree with that. My only point was that close to the differences are comparatively small.

I'm a keen raptor watcher, and am lucky enough to include a lot of viewing at distance over water (lakes and coastal), and fixed wing viewing in my week. For these my current preference is a 10x42 of one sort or another, here the width of the field is of secondary importance to sharpness for me.

Best wishes,
Comparatively small perhaps but for example the FOV difference between an SF and a Uvid at 20m would be a bit more than 40cm, enough for say 10 Willow Warblers side-by-side, more than enough for a Golden Oriole sideways-on, and, considered as a 20cm annulus around the edge of a FOV would give more than enough area to be useful to give extra help to catch a warbler or dragonfly in sight.

If it comes down to choosing between sharpness and FOV then I would choose the same as you but there are plenty of bins with excellent sharpness so choosing one with a really wide FOV need not entail a sacrifice in perceived detail.

Lee
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Old Sunday 3rd May 2015, 11:23   #57
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Thanks, do you own an SF or are you just boosting it ?

Best wishes,
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Old Sunday 3rd May 2015, 11:39   #58
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On fov, I`v been looking at my feeders, 15m away with my EII and UV strapped to my tripod one above the other, the difference is tiny, personally it seems more about how we perceive the fov than how wide it usefully is.

This is not to say the EII is`nt my all time favourite view, it is, and nothing yet has dissuaded me from that, but in reality for me the Leica is a devastatingly efficient Birding optic whatever the top trumps spec sheets suggest.
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Old Sunday 3rd May 2015, 12:11   #59
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Originally Posted by Samandag View Post
Thanks, do you own an SF or are you just boosting it ?

Best wishes,
This has nothing to do with the models of bins I chose, just the discussion about fields of view.

Lets just call them a 148m at 1km versus a 130m at 1km bin.

And no I don't own an SF

Lee

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Old Sunday 3rd May 2015, 16:10   #60
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Originally Posted by Torview View Post
On fov, I`v been looking at my feeders, 15m away with my EII and UV strapped to my tripod one above the other, the difference is tiny, personally it seems more about how we perceive the fov than how wide it usefully is.

This is not to say the EII is`nt my all time favourite view, it is, and nothing yet has dissuaded me from that, but in reality for me the Leica is a devastatingly efficient Birding optic whatever the top trumps spec sheets suggest.
Totally agree, when my wife compared our new Trinny to the 32SV, at first glance she thought the Trinny had the bigger FOV of the 2.....
The Trinny has "only" 126m FOV (although I read a test which measured almost 128m actual FOV for the LT, compared to 123m actual for the Conquest HD, which is specified for 128m) but this is less dramatical as you think it would be.
My brother in law's Kowa SV8x42 at 110m on the other hand gives a bit of a restricted view to me.
Sort of a "tunnel view". So I dare to say, a 110m vs 125m FOV will appear more dramatic than 130m vs 145m FOV.
Since we also have the Trinovid in house, I catch myself picking the LT over the SV more and more..... Says enough i guess
I suppose THAT'S the "Leica view" what people are talking about. I like it a lot!

Kind regards,

Gijs

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Old Sunday 3rd May 2015, 17:38   #61
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The exception to his argument was the Ultravid 7x42 HD as the other two alphas do not offer comparable models--thus, he keeps it in stock. His objections were related to: a) the minimum focusing distance for Leica is inferior to the other two alphas, and b) light transmission for Leica is not at the same level as in Swarovski and top tier Zeiss.
The minimum focusing distance of the Leica may be important to some. For others it isn't. And the price you have to pay for a short focusing distance is a more complex optical construction (like stronger focusing lenses) and a more complex focuser. There's been quite a bit of talk about problems with focusers with short-focusing bins, like differences between the barrels. Leica doesn't seem to have this problem at all.

Light transmission .... Well, the light transmission of the Leica HD Plus is IMO quite a bit closer to Swarovski and Zeiss, so that argument may not be as important as it used to be.

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Old Monday 4th May 2015, 04:46   #62
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Yet another is Leica lagging behind thread.... They seem to be be timed to each "latest and greatest" release by the competition... a spate when the SV ELs came out and again with the SFs.

The opinions fall into two sharply divided camps, those who feel Leica is being "Left Behind" like some apocalyptic movie, and those who think the incremental changes Leica has made to the UV's - first HD glass and now HT glass - puts them on par or at least not too far behind to be "Left Behind."

Perhaps what Leica needs is not an SV EL or SF KILLER, but a better marketing slogan. Something simple that sticks like glue. How about "I Like Leica?" Worked for Ike. Let's see those complimentary "I Like Leica" T-shirts, ball caps, coffee mugs and pens!

Get the message out there -- Leica is no more behind than Eisenhower!

<B>
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Old Monday 4th May 2015, 14:34   #63
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Yet another is Leica lagging behind thread.... They seem to be be timed to each "latest and greatest" release by the competition... a spate when the SV ELs came out and again with the SFs.

The opinions fall into two sharply divided camps, those who feel Leica is being "Left Behind" like some apocalyptic movie, and those who think the incremental changes Leica has made to the UV's - first HD glass and now HT glass - puts them on par or at least not too far behind to be "Left Behind."

Perhaps what Leica needs is not an SV EL or SF KILLER, but a better marketing slogan. Something simple that sticks like glue. How about "I Like Leica?" Worked for Ike. Let's see those complimentary "I Like Leica" T-shirts, ball caps, coffee mugs and pens!

Get the message out there -- Leica is no more behind than Eisenhower!

<B>
Nice try Brock, but it won't work because the current Leica owners don't own the copyrights of the name Leica. Everytime they use it they have to ask permission from the nameholder AND pay a fee for it.

Jan...
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Old Monday 4th May 2015, 21:08   #64
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Originally Posted by brocknroller View Post

The opinions fall into two sharply divided camps, those who feel Leica is being "Left Behind" like some apocalyptic movie, and those who think the incremental changes Leica has made to the UV's - first HD glass and now HT glass - puts them on par or at least not too far behind to be "Left Behind."
I agree. Leica is behind in "marketing" not in usable optical quality. HT glass doesn't make any useful difference nor does a few more feet filed of view in 1000 yards. A slight misplacement of your eye at the exit pupil or a tiny rain drop on the objective has more "theoretical effect" on brightness than HT glass and the practical effect of all these is zero.

Anyway, if anyone here cares for a true classic super high quality Leica at a very good price, I just put my Trinovid 10X50 BA on eBay for sale. They are like new and come with the rare Leica hard leather case (starting price $999). I am also going to put my Duvid 8-12X42 up for sale in a couple weeks. They are with the Leica service department for cleaning and maintenance right now. If any body is interested, please PM me and I will reserve them for you.

I am a big fan of Leica and I have very good relationship with their sporting optics product manager (Herr Albrecht). I am not selling my Leica's because I want to buy something better (there is nothing better), but because I just bought a Perazzi MX2000

Cheers

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Old Monday 4th May 2015, 21:16   #65
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Originally Posted by Omid View Post
I agree. Leica is behind in "marketing" not in usable optical quality. HT glass doesn't make any useful difference nor does a few more feet filed of view in 1000 yards. A slight misplacement of your eye at the exit pupil or a tiny rain drop on the objective has more "theoretical effect" on brightness than HT glass and the practical effect of all these is zero.

Anyway, if anyone here cares for a true classic super high quality Leica at a very good price, I just put my Trinovid 10X50 BA on eBay for sale. They are like new and come with the rare Leica hard leather case (starting price $999). I am also going to put my Duvid 8-12X42 up for sale in a couple weeks. They are with the Leica service department for cleaning and maintenance right now. If any body is interested, please PM me and I will reserve them for you.

I am a big fan of Leica and I have very good relationship with their sporting optics product manager (Herr Albrecht). I am not selling my Leica's because I want to buy something better (there is nothing better), but because I just bought a Perazzi MX2000

Cheers
So how do you explain the fact that leica is the only alpha that offers a warranty to the original owner only, and is non transferrable?
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Old Monday 4th May 2015, 21:34   #66
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Originally Posted by Omid View Post
HT glass doesn't make any useful difference nor does a few more feet filed of view in 1000 yards.
Well, I disagree that the difference between a [email protected] FOV and a [email protected] FOV is trivial.
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Old Monday 4th May 2015, 23:08   #67
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Originally Posted by Omid View Post
I agree. Leica is behind in "marketing" not in usable optical quality. HT glass doesn't make any useful difference nor does a few more feet filed of view in 1000 yards. A slight misplacement of your eye at the exit pupil or a tiny rain drop on the objective has more "theoretical effect" on brightness than HT glass and the practical effect of all these is zero.

Anyway, if anyone here cares for a true classic super high quality Leica at a very good price, I just put my Trinovid 10X50 BA on eBay for sale. They are like new and come with the rare Leica hard leather case (starting price $999). I am also going to put my Duvid 8-12X42 up for sale in a couple weeks. They are with the Leica service department for cleaning and maintenance right now. If any body is interested, please PM me and I will reserve them for you.

I am a big fan of Leica and I have very good relationship with their sporting optics product manager (Herr Albrecht). I am not selling my Leica's because I want to buy something better (there is nothing better), but because I just bought a Perazzi MX2000

Cheers
I had to look that one up. I thought a Perazzi MX-2000 might be an Italian roadster similar to the Honda S2000 and the Mazda Miata MX-5 but three times the price and four times less reliable.

MX-2000?

Brock, contributor, Monkey Magazine

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Old Tuesday 5th May 2015, 12:16   #68
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Well, I disagree that the difference between a [email protected] FOV and a [email protected] FOV is trivial.
It absolutely is not trivial.
Whether it is important for individuals is a matter for them, but make no mistake this is a significant difference.

Lee
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Old Tuesday 5th May 2015, 15:17   #69
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to address the initial question of this thread

I have three older alphas
-duovid 10+15x50
-8.5x42 EL, not SV
-8x32 victory FL

optics, mechanical, they are equal and all great
the duovid is my favorite and most useful
but
SW has had the excitement over SV optics
Zeiss has had the excitement over the SF
Leica has had no excitement-that I have been aware of

edj
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Old Tuesday 5th May 2015, 15:43   #70
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SW has had the excitement over SV optics
Zeiss has had the excitement over the SF
Leica has had no excitement-that I have been aware of
You summarized it well. Yes, everybody seem to agree that Leica has not made a big "announcement" as did Swarovski and Zeiss.

Let's think like a creative Marketing Manager and help them with this issue: The key to any "next big thing" announcement in binoculars marketing is picking a new two-letter abbreviation. HT, SF, HD, ED, SV and FL are already used. I suggest Leica announce the "all new Leica 8X42 4K". These revolutionary binoculars will have higher resolution (more pixels, more seeing!). They will be windproof and will have a special focusing mechanism that can satisfy everybody on bird forum: it will be slow at low range, then a bit faster, then slows again and then makes a full turn before going fast or slow again. (The user can choose between five different focusing profiles). After two years, a special edition will also be released, in ostrich leather and with a case made of organic Egyptian bamboo.

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Old Tuesday 5th May 2015, 18:15   #71
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Originally Posted by edwincjones View Post
I have three older alphas
-duovid 10+15x50
-8.5x42 EL, not SV
-8x32 victory FL

optics, mechanical, they are equal and all great
the duovid is my favorite and most useful
but
SW has had the excitement over SV optics
Zeiss has had the excitement over the SF
Leica has had no excitement-that I have been aware of

edj
Nobody has to the right to argue with people's personal preferences. You love the Leica, and that I do not have a right to criticise.

However, I object to the insinuation that we who criticise what we perceive as shortcomings of Leica, or tout the advantages of other bins, are somehow beholden to marketing hype, or are morally deficient as customers, or are unable to properly appreciate Leica bins in some way.
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Old Tuesday 5th May 2015, 22:13   #72
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Not that I have any control as to where posters take this thread, but I had not intended it to be a " mine is best " discussion.

Going with HN`s last paragraph in post 71, I think potential Leica customers may in fact be being swayed not to look at them by "marketing hype" from staff in optics outlets, which was kind of my original point, for what ever reason I think they are being done a disservice by being steered towards Zeiss or Swaro`s latest offerings rather than being left to try all three and make up their own minds.
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Old Tuesday 5th May 2015, 23:06   #73
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Since Torview is bringing it back home, I will, too. Going back to ye olde theme of Incremental Change$ for Diminishing Return$, I think due to the ultra high cost of alphas today, incremental changes are no longer acceptable to many buyers. They aren't going to trade in or sell their "old" models for what's being marketed as the "latest and greatest" unless there's a clear advance in the binoculars that's obvious to their eyes and to their hands.

For a long time, it was about higher transmission coatings, more reflective prisms, and closer focus. Now that those traits have trickled down to the affordable roof prism bin market segment, binoculars need more than a new acronym and a prestigious logo to get buyers to pull out their Mastercard. They need a giant leap forward, not small steps.

After an embarrassing and costly fumble, Nikon delivered with the EDG II; Swaro delivered with the SV EL; and Zeiss with the HT and eventually the SF. Yes, birders are willing to pay obscene amounts of money IF and ONLY IF the new bins deliver actual rather than perceptual advantages over what they are currently using.

Even though Lecia added two different types of new glass to its UV, it's still a UV, and for many birders, that's enough. But for the optics aficionado, Leica needs to deliver something unique, something to set apart the next gen Leica bin not only from its competitors but from the UV.

What that might be, I don't know. They have Perger prisms, so why not use them for their top tier? Perhaps they add some length, but what they hey, they can boast having the only alphas with Porro prisms, and if they are shaped like the range finder, that will definitely set it apart from the more traditional body UV. Some have said they would be too big, well, what about the SF? They are BIG.

I think that's what all the fuss is about, the expectation that for whatever comes next that's going to cost more $, it had better be worth it this time.

Meanwhile, Trinny BN owners are busy watching birds and not paying attention to the latest "mine is best" pissing match. In our heart of hearts, I think we all envy them.

Brock
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Old Tuesday 5th May 2015, 23:44   #74
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It absolutely is not trivial.
Whether it is important for individuals is a matter for them, but make no mistake this is a significant difference.

Lee


Lee,

Comparing the 8x SF's FOV and the 8x HD Plus's FOV while looking at a bird 50' away works out to about 1' more width in the FOV for the SF. (or about 2' @100' and about 6' @ 100 yards) Without the SF's flat field you still have to move the binocular to take advantage of it. It is the flat field of the SF that makes it viable, otherwise both views are not sharp out at the edge.

Bob
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Old Wednesday 6th May 2015, 01:44   #75
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I don't know how many binoculars Leica can manufacture, but its a fact that they aren't being churned out in nearly the numbers as other alpha brands, unless they're being stockpiled in a warehouse, which is unlikely. So for whatever reason, Leica has chosen to maintain a low profile at the retail end of the market. I think its because they can only sell what they make, and it takes a while for them to make what they have to sell. As long as they're making enough of a profit to maintain their high standards, I don't think it matters that they are not being pushed at the optics counter.
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