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Do people count ringed birds on their lists? (1 Viewer)

ovenbird43 said:
Yes - but a bird in the zoo isn't necessarily domestic either- whether or not a bird is domestic is a separate, if somewhat related, issue. The ABA rules state that captive birds cannot be counted, which most people interpret as applying to both birds in cages long-term (like at a zoo), or temporarily restrained for banding. This rule is likely why so few banders in North America count birds in the hand on their life lists, or they keep a separate list for them.

I can also understand the viewpoint that, since mist-netting is not the same activity as birding, one might not want to add birds in hand to one's "birding" life list. But that distinction is totally up to individual preference- in my own case, that distinction has become somewhat blurred in my mind over time.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree with you on the domestic thing. I couldn't come up with the word I wanted. I can well believe most Americans interpret "captive birds" as meaning "birds restrained temporarily" as well as "birds made captive or bred in captivity and placed in long-term purpose-built accommodation to keep them captive" but see no reason to accept such restrictive practice or indeed endorse it for Americans.

That said I do also understand people who have ticked birds in the hand/on release saying that subsequently finding their own unrestrained bird feels almost like a second tick: and I endorse that feeling as being an acceptance of two lots of joy, which in a hobby makes far more sense than any amount of self-denial.

Good birding

John
 
Jim M. said:
Actually, it is precisely because they are captive that you do not like to count them. You are just using different words to describe the same concept.
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Not quite. True, I would not count any captive bird, ringed or not. But I also do not count any bird that has been "recently released" (whatever the heck THAT means ... very hard to be clear on that). E.g. birds coming out of the 'chute' at the bird observatory - they're free, are they not? But I do not tick those, either.

The question I put to myself is, would I have found it if it had not been for it's having been "kept" in a local area by somebody. If there's any chance that the answer to the question is "no" then it doesn't get ticked.

P.c.
 
FYI. The ABA recording rules (http://listing.aba.org/aba-recording-rules/) require that a bird be "unrestrained" to be countable. The definition of "unrestrained" addresses when a bird released from captivity (e.g. from a bander's hand) may be counted. (I note that it seems to have an exception of sorts for the banders themselves, which may address Ovenbird's concern):

C. “Unrestrained” means not held captive in a cage, trap, mistnet, hand, or by any other means and not under the influence of such captivity. A bird is considered under the influence of captivity after its release until it regains the activities and movements of a bird which has not been captured.
(i) A bird is under the influence of captivity during its initial flight away from its release point and during subsequent activity reasonably influenced by the captivity, such as initial perching and preening or early sleeping or roosting near the release point.
(ii) A nocturnal species released during daylight which goes to roost near the point of release is considered under the influence of captivity until the next nightfall, when it has left its roost and begun normal nocturnal activities.
(iii) A wild bird that is injured, sick, oiled, or otherwise incapacitated, but which retains a reasonable freedom of movement, may be counted.
(iv) Banders working on licensed projects under proper permits may count, for their personal lists, the birds that they band, without the restrictions described in (i) and (ii).​
 
To each his own. Count or do not count, it's your list.

* I personally do count species on my list of a netted wild bird, which is studied, documented, banded and then released as a once again wild bird.
 
What about a pelagic bird found exhausted in a coastal town, do you count it or not? A Leach's Storm-petrel found by a friend of mine in Martil (Mediterranean coast, Morocco), seen it while alive and died afterwards when released. The only bird I have seen so far for this species.

In my life-list, I have another bird I have seen it only in hand, the Lesser Whitethroat (ringed in a normal ringing session).
 
I suppose it depends whether you see birdwatching as some sort of chase or competition, or just a hobby to see wild birds.

In reality though, I know birdwatching is a combination of all these things. I have no problem at all counting wild birds seen held in the hand, its a rare opportunity to see a wild bird close up. Of course if you hang around ringing huts all the time that is slightly different in my opinion, though even then its subjective.

I was ridiculed a little for going to see an escaped Golden Eagle in Wales which had been living wild for 3-4 years.
 
If one keeps an ABA List of Life Birds then there are certain rules. So also if one is competing in a contest, say for example, one's Year List of North American Birds. There again certain rules apply. An individual just keeping a list for their own purposes may use their own rules as which birds to count or not count.
 
Farnboro John said:
That said I do also understand people who have ticked birds in the hand/on release saying that subsequently finding their own unrestrained bird feels almost like a second tick: and I endorse that feeling as being an acceptance of two lots of joy, which in a hobby makes far more sense than any amount of self-denial.
Click to expand...

Yes - this is pretty much the attitude I've come around to - why spoil an opportunity to thoroughly enjoy capturing and studying a new bird while mist-netting with the nagging "ah, but it doesn't count, if only I'd already seen it"! But it's still gratifying to see the species, unrestrained, at some later time. Kind of how I feel about the heard-onlys on my list. I chose to count them for any number of reasons (I don't count all heard-onlys)- interesting vocalizations, vocalization essential for ID, ethical reasons - but it still feels like a lifer when I finally luck into a sighting.

If I were to submit a list to ABA then of course I would remove any in-hand-only ticks (there's only 1 right now, outside the ABA area), but for my own personal lists I deviate slightly from ABA rules.
 
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wolfbirder said:
I was ridiculed a little for going to see an escaped Golden Eagle in Wales which had been living wild for 3-4 years.
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The first time I chose to purposely deviate from ABA rules was when I put Whooping Crane on my life list after seeing some in Florida. I knew they didn't "count", but they were so magnificent, I really enjoyed seeing them, so I decided to count them. (since then I have also seen the officially countable birds in Texas)
 
Jim M. said:
FYI. The ABA recording rules (http://listing.aba.org/aba-recording-rules/) require that a bird be "unrestrained" to be countable. The definition of "unrestrained" addresses when a bird released from captivity (e.g. from a bander's hand) may be counted. (I note that it seems to have an exception of sorts for the banders themselves, which may address Ovenbird's concern):

C. “Unrestrained” means not held captive in a cage, trap, mistnet, hand, or by any other means and not under the influence of such captivity. A bird is considered under the influence of captivity after its release until it regains the activities and movements of a bird which has not been captured.
(i) A bird is under the influence of captivity during its initial flight away from its release point and during subsequent activity reasonably influenced by the captivity, such as initial perching and preening or early sleeping or roosting near the release point.
(ii) A nocturnal species released during daylight which goes to roost near the point of release is considered under the influence of captivity until the next nightfall, when it has left its roost and begun normal nocturnal activities.
(iii) A wild bird that is injured, sick, oiled, or otherwise incapacitated, but which retains a reasonable freedom of movement, may be counted.
(iv) Banders working on licensed projects under proper permits may count, for their personal lists, the birds that they band, without the restrictions described in (i) and (ii).​
Click to expand...

The first two seem to me to be making people's lives deliberately difficult, while the last rule that grants clear advantage to ringers leaves me absolutely astonished. In the context of hobby lists, ringers should be treated exactly the same as any other birders.

Rule one is easily circumvented by defining "when you saw it" as being after initial perching or preening. That would be easily achieved by flushing it a couple of times (which would also prevent early roosting and sleeping) - its a straightforward encouragement to bad behaviour.

In addition rule two seems designed to ensure that such birds will be disturbed throughout the day by birders staking them out for their movement up to nightfall, whereas if ticking them on release was permitted birders would disperse almost at once. I cannot see that this rule enhances either birders' enjoyment or bird welfare, which is absurd.

Thank goodness I live in a sensible country where a chap can fly up to Fair Isle on spec, see a bird so stupid as to be lured into a mist net night after night by the same recorded calls in the hand and flying into the dark, tick it and be on his way home first thing in the morning. We don't want any bonkers ABA rules catching on over here, for sure! ;)

John
 
So here's what I do for what it's worth........

Start with a world list, Clements, IOC etc

Annotate against this full species list a choice of variables which could include...

  • Photographed
  • Stonking Views - not photographed
  • Seen - better views would be appreciated!
  • Seen - captive bird in the hand
  • Heard but not seen
  • Unseen

The size of the list if important in some way, is it just a case of filtering against the criteria you want to include.
 
Those 'rules' are one of the funniest things I've read! I like the way banders can count them but 'normals' can't....I'm with John - you can keep them all to yourselves!
 
birdboybowley said:
I'm with John - you can keep them all to yourselves!
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Isn't that the point I'm making though Adam? Count what ever floats your boat and in my case I choose not to "count" birds that have been caught or birds that I've only heard but not seen. I might know what these were, when and where though.
 
I don't really care what the ABA says very much (at all really) because the concept of "competitive listing" makes no sense to me. But, given that there ARE people who care about 700 clubs and that sort of thing, the first two make perfect sense to me - they're just an elaboration on the idea that wild and free birds are what the activity is all about.

The third one is goofy. What, a bird hits a window, hobbles around a bit, dies, and counts? Might as well count limed ones.

I think the fourth one doesn't really belong - I interpret it as "sure, make a 'ringed' or 'handled' or 'extracted' list for yourself, but it's not ABA tickable." At least I hope that's what they mean ("personal lists").
 
Peter,

Yes - I just made these categories up because I've seen posts where people may only want to count birds they have photographed or some might want to count birds that are in the hand for ringing/banding. Goofy, yes probably depending on what you want.

My post does read contradicory though because I do keep a world list but I don't use these categories at all, only what I've seen that was free flying. I've seen injured birds and haven't "counted" them but for those that want to, that's surely fine.

I too don't really get the competitive part to listing but as you say, for those that do, then enjoy!
 
birdboybowley said:
Those 'rules' are one of the funniest things I've read! I like the way banders can count them but 'normals' can't....I'm with John - you can keep them all to yourselves!
Click to expand...

That IS strange, I never bothered to read the rules carefully and all the way through so hadn't noticed that before. It's ambiguous too, so you can count them on your "personal list", does that mean it still doesn't count if one were to submit a list to the ABA? The rules for a personal list are completely up to the individual- I wonder why the ABA felt the need to give permission to banders (but not other people!) to count banded birds on their personal lists.
 
Peter C. said:
The third one is goofy. What, a bird hits a window, hobbles around a bit, dies, and counts?
Click to expand...

Each to their own I suppose but why wouldn't it count? My first Cettis Warbler flew into my kitchen window, luckily it recovered and flew off but if it hadn't it would still be on my list as I would have still seen one which was a wild bird and alive at the time.
 
Peter C. said:
I don't really care what the ABA says very much (at all really) because the concept of "competitive listing" makes no sense to me. But, given that there ARE people who care about 700 clubs and that sort of thing, the first two make perfect sense to me - they're just an elaboration on the idea that wild and free birds are what the activity is all about.

The third one is goofy. What, a bird hits a window, hobbles around a bit, dies, and counts? Might as well count limed ones.

I think the fourth one doesn't really belong - I interpret it as "sure, make a 'ringed' or 'handled' or 'extracted' list for yourself, but it's not ABA tickable." At least I hope that's what they mean ("personal lists").
Click to expand...

I mostly agree with you. But it's the only attempt I've seen to come up with a set of rules of this sort, so I found it interesting to see what they look like. Moreover, if you are going to compare lists, you need to have some common set of rules--otherwise the comparison is meaningless. Personally, I avoid the issue entirely by just not counting banded birds even after I've seen them released, and not submitting personal lists to the ABA.
 
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