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Does EMR harm living organisms?

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Old Sunday 19th August 2018, 14:11   #1126
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Originally Posted by Purple Heron View Post
@ fugl None of the things on your list are going to employ the general population, are they? So they won't bolster the general economy, which is what I am talking about. And much on your list is 5G-related anyway. Terraforming? Do get real.

I am attaching a recent article titled "Thoughts on 5G and IEEE" that I think you should read. Let me quote the conclusion, "The take-away" and you can read the article to see how the author got there.
"5G is not really about high speed Internet access, lower latency, IoT, smart cities, smart grids, transportation or any societal need. It is not about market demands or needs. It is about compensating for an industrial structure that has become derelict and not 'engaged' in anything except increasing shareholder value and executive compensation."

This is not an article about EMR. It is an article about the technology itself and the IEEE, written by a long-time member of the IEEE, and as you will see he is deeply critical of 5G.

If you add to that the scientific research showing EMR is dangerous, what purpose will 5G serve except to make certain people richer? And they are willing to risk the health of the planet to stuff their pockets?

But I think Ed is right. You aren't willing to have a serious discussion. Which is too bad, because there needs to be a serious discussion about 5G and its potential effects BEFORE it is too late. And it is rapidly becoming too late.
You airily dismiss the potential impact on the economy of developments in artificial intelligence, medical technology and the rest with a wave of the hand and you accuse me of unwillingness to have a “serious” discussion?
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Old Sunday 19th August 2018, 14:18   #1127
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Originally Posted by Purple Heron View Post
One of the worst sources of EMR is Wi-Fi, a fact brought home to me again this morning as I sat in a village square that had no sparrows, no flies, and no cicadas. But it did have Wi-Fi, and all the tourists sat there communing with their smartphones. What I didn't realize until a couple of days ago is that 2.45 GHz, the frequency most commonly used for Wi-Fi, is the same frequency that is used for microwave ovens. So, this is a frequency that, given sufficient wattage, will boil a cup of water in a minute--yet it's okay to irradiate everyone with this same frequency as long as you keep the power low? Really? No wonder there are no sparrows or insects about.
Here's the article: https://www.saferemr.com/2018/07/int...on-health.html
And for more information and studies on the health effects of Wi-Fi, also check out http://www.emfsa.co.za/research-and-...-and-behavior/
If you still want the Wi-Fi on after reading that lot, all I can say is that you must already be suffering from cognitive impairment, or want to be.
This is something a microwave oven, let alone a WiFi router, cannot achieve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JhA9JyGBBI

Yes, it's EMR cutting a metal sheet.

What do you think?
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Old Sunday 19th August 2018, 14:32   #1128
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However, yesterday afternoon we climbed the mountain where the main cell tower sits, just to see what was around. It wasn't much: one rufous buzzard hunting (it eventually caught a snake) and one jay. No other birds at all--we not only didn't see any, we didn't even hear any. Not a twitter, not a cheep, not a caw. No insects, either--no flies, no beetles, no wasps or bees or hornets, just one tiny moth. We did notice some new equipment on the cell tower, though. When we later went out to our land to water, it seemed by comparison to be teeming with insects, though they are nothing to what we had a few years ago, and most of the birds are gone. But I notice what's there, maybe because I don't go through life staring at a smartphone screen instead of looking around me.
In the Basque Country in Northern Spain, most mountains have lots of radio installations. Not just cell phone base stations, but broadcast repeaters, microwave links... You name it.

This is a very irregular terrain, so it can't be avoided.

As far as I know we don't have bird population problems. Turns out we have some over population of griffon vultures who, wait! Yes, they nest quite close to all those evil installations. The situation is so worrysome, there have been two bird strikes involving a vulture over the Bilbao Airport in the last 3 months.

And of course there are not only vultures, but many bird species.
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Old Sunday 19th August 2018, 15:20   #1129
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@ Chosun What predetermined narrative, pray? Some of what you say makes good sense, and I too would like to see a lot of wetlands, forests, etc. restored. Never forget--because I never do, not for one second--that I started this thread because I believe there is sufficient evidence that EMR is seriously affecting birds and the natural world, and I have presented a great many studies to back up what I am saying. none of which have actually been refuted although some of the observational studies have been criticized. Of course, except for Ed I have no evidence that anyone else has read or tried to understand them, and if you haven't, you have no basis for disputing my position other than you really like your smartphone and you don't want to give it up, even if doing so will stop the decline of species across the globe.

I know smartphones are really snazzy computers and have all kinds of capabilities that most of the people who own them will never use--so bloody what? People don't, by and large, use them to coordinate moon landings. They use them to check email, get on their social media pages, watch youtube clips or movies, take zillions of useless pictures and generally waste time that could have been spent productively. They're also extremely wasteful of energy and as anti-ecological as you can get, a subject I have covered in some depth. So you can witter on about restoring waterways if you like, but what's really happening is that e-waste is contributing a great deal to polluting groundwater and soil, and if somebody finds something to mine (nickel, gold, lithium, conflict minerals, oil, etc.) in the places you want to see restored, you can kiss them goodbye because the mining concessions will win the day, count on it. I simply do not see how you can advocate everything you are for in paragraph two of your reply above and simply ignore the environmental consequences of wireless technology (exclusive of EMR) on the other. You are trying to have your cake and eat it, and it can't be done. To conserve the earth's species (this is the conservation forum) it WILL be necessary to give up some of our toys or we will live in a barren world and probably starve to death.

As for EMR, over the course of months (and with some help from Ed) I have posted a long list of studies showing that EMR causes oxidative stress in all species, that it is linked to a host of diseases and illnesses including cancer, neurogenerative disease, cognitive dysfunction, DNA damage, infertility and more, that EMR increases antimicrobial resistance and causes microbes to flourish, and that it is not safe for people, birds, insects, animals, amphibians or anything else. I haven't heard anyone refute any of these studies, either, certainly not yourself. If not reading them insulates you from having to come to terms with the evidence presented, all I can say is that you have your head firmly buried in the sand but that doesn't change the facts.

So, in your OPINION, I'm "trying to make the facts fit a predetermined narrative". I'm not sure what you base that opinion on, unless you can come back with some very solid criticism of the studies demonstrating harm from EMR. Want to try? fugl? Anyone?

Here on Samos, birds and insects are continuing to disappear at a really alarming rate. Most people don't really notice birds, but everyone has noticed how few flies and mosquitoes there are this year. As for pollinators, the problem isn't just here. My husband frequently consults a number of farming websites, and it is clear from them that lack of pollinators is a serious issue everywhere; all the websites are full of tips on how to pollinate crops yourself (like picking off male blossoms and brushing them against female blossoms). From looking at some of the advice, we're still better off than a lot of places.

However, yesterday afternoon we climbed the mountain where the main cell tower sits, just to see what was around. It wasn't much: one rufous buzzard hunting (it eventually caught a snake) and one jay. No other birds at all--we not only didn't see any, we didn't even hear any. Not a twitter, not a cheep, not a caw. No insects, either--no flies, no beetles, no wasps or bees or hornets, just one tiny moth. We did notice some new equipment on the cell tower, though. When we later went out to our land to water, it seemed by comparison to be teeming with insects, though they are nothing to what we had a few years ago, and most of the birds are gone. But I notice what's there, maybe because I don't go through life staring at a smartphone screen instead of looking around me.

You can have your smartphone, or you can have nature. You cannot have both. You could compromise and use a computer attached to a landline, and use maps (remember those?) instead of GPS, but apparently you don't want to. When nature dips below that critical threshold and everyone can see that it's going to end badly, don't say nobody warned you, because I did.
Diana,

All I was simply saying was that your conclusions about the business world and commerce were incorrect. It doesn't help your case by trying to draw in a grab bag of nefarious supporting arguments when the evidence doesn't support that. By dismissing other forms of economic growth outside of wireless virtually out of hand, then that's the way in which you are trying to support a predetermined narrative.

I'm all for an examination of the facts of the matter. Of what I have read, the proven effects come from heating holding a device against your head. I would need to research further the biometric parameters used in the vibration equations to see if they are valid. I don't have the time at the moment to go through in depth some of the papers you and Ed have posted lately, but I am very interested in the end result. Others have made the point though that at some of the greater wavelengths tiny creatures like insects would fit completely within the wavelength. Even if we have different physiology we are all made of molecules, and on an atomic level the same. It doesn't follow that smaller creatures suffer proportionally larger effects.

Some of the issues I have with some of your conclusions is that it ignores other research and evidence of other very real major decline causes (hydrology, vegetation), and mechanisms (herbicides, pesticides) , etc. https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=345778

It is a shame since some of what you say in relation to vested interests, 'ghost' research generation (ie. dependendently funded and biased, if not downright fabricated), and ignoring the precautionary principle hold true. It serves nobody however to retreat to a luddite future.

If there are issues with mining, and e-waste, then these are separate issues. There is no reason whatsoever that better solutions cannot be found to current situations. Since the turn of the millenium we recycle our mobile phones. We have gone from being the world's biggest producer of Tantalum, to not even bothering to mine it anymore. At a similar time pcb manufacture went to lead free solder processes.

If there are problems in the world with war, exploitation, environmental damage due to mining, and dumping of waste, 'conflict' minerals etc, then these are more to do with the heart of darkness of man rather than any particular product.



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Old Sunday 19th August 2018, 22:49   #1130
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Old Sunday 19th August 2018, 23:06   #1131
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
Diana,

...
I'm all for an examination of the facts of the matter. Of what I have read, the proven effects come from heating holding a device against your head. I would need to research further the biometric parameters used in the vibration equations to see if they are valid. I don't have the time at the moment to go through in depth some of the papers you and Ed have posted lately, but I am very interested in the end result. Others have made the point though that at some of the greater wavelengths tiny creatures like insects would fit completely within the wavelength. Even if we have different physiology we are all made of molecules, and on an atomic level the same. It doesn't follow that smaller creatures suffer proportionally larger effects.
Chosun,

I hope you get the time to read the Panagopoulos and Pall papers that led me to conclude "yes" to the general question posed in this thread: "Does EMR harm living organisms?" Panagopoulos showed a clear-cut difference between studies that used real cell-phones signals vs. those that used simulated cell-phone signals. In grad school, we used to refer to such results as 'interocular traumas,' more commonly known as getting hit-between-the-eyes. The simulated signals did not replicate the statistical properties, i.e., higher moments, of the real ones, which he posited is the basis of their insidious nature. Still, the health assessment/regulatory communities appear to draw their conclusions exclusively from simulated signals and maintain that there are no health effects. The depth of Pall's frustration was evident in his hour-long interview.

Ed
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Old Sunday 19th August 2018, 23:19   #1132
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In the Basque Country in Northern Spain, most mountains have lots of radio installations. Not just cell phone base stations, but broadcast repeaters, microwave links... You name it.

This is a very irregular terrain, so it can't be avoided.

As far as I know we don't have bird population problems. Turns out we have some over population of griffon vultures who, wait! Yes, they nest quite close to all those evil installations. The situation is so worrysome, there have been two bird strikes involving a vulture over the Bilbao Airport in the last 3 months.

And of course there are not only vultures, but many bird species.
Time, perhaps, to start a birds-immune-to-EMR list? Candidates so far, specifically singled-out by posts in this thread (as memory serves), comprise 4 species in no less than 3 orders—

Griffon Vulture (Accipitriformes)
White Stork (Ciconiiformes)
Corvus sp. (can’t remember which one) (Passeriformes)
(European) Starling (Dto)

Additional nominations welcome.
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Old Yesterday, 02:46   #1133
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Chosun,

I hope you get the time to read the Panagopoulos and Pall papers that led me to conclude "yes" to the general question posed in this thread: "Does EMR harm living organisms?" Panagopoulos showed a clear-cut difference between studies that used real cell-phones signals vs. those that used simulated cell-phone signals. In grad school, we used to refer to such results as 'interocular traumas,' more commonly known as getting hit-between-the-eyes. The simulated signals did not replicate the statistical properties, i.e., higher moments, of the real ones, which he posited is the basis of their insidious nature. Still, the health assessment/regulatory communities appear to draw their conclusions exclusively from simulated signals and maintain that there are no health effects. The depth of Pall's frustration was evident in his hour-long interview.

Ed
Thanks Ed - point noted.

I will put it at the end of a very long list (haha - the reason I didn't want to become deeply involved in this thread - I haven't even seen 'my' peregrines for a few years!).

I've gone back and dug up the paper you posted:
Real versus Simulated Mobile Phone Exposures in
Experimental Studies
Dimitris J. Panagopoulos, et al

I think a summary of all papers posted (and links too) in this loooong thread would be helpful - if someone would be so kind .... ?

Thanks See you all down the track ..... :)



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Old Yesterday, 08:08   #1134
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Time, perhaps, to start a birds-immune-to-EMR list? Candidates so far, specifically singled-out by posts in this thread (as memory serves), comprise 4 species in no less than 3 orders—

Griffon Vulture (Accipitriformes)
White Stork (Ciconiiformes)
Corvus sp. (can’t remember which one) (Passeriformes)
(European) Starling (Dto)

Additional nominations welcome.
Red-billed chough and yellow billed chough.

Both present in large numbers in the same area as the vulture colony I mentioned.
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Old Yesterday, 10:57   #1135
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@ fugl I didn't "airly dismiss" anything; I asked how they were going to employ the general population. Because unless you are going to give Joe Bloggs a universal basic income so that he can while his time away playing with VR applications etc. on his smartphone, he's going to need a job to support his family. The list of things that you mention is heavily 5G dependent on the whole, and will not supply any way for ordinary people to make a living, especially when factory work becomes more dependent on robotics. If you want a serious discussion, try reading some of the studies and articles Ed and I have posted, and then we can discuss them.

As for your list of birds that are "immune" to the effects of EMR, I would definitely not add storks. One reason, Blmori's paper; another reason, my own observations in the north of Greece: more EMR, far fewer storks. I would not add starlings, which have all but disappeared here. As for other birds, I think the jury is still out. It seems to me that some species are worse affected than others, but if damage is frequency-dependent there will inevitably be a frequency which will damage all life forms when they encounter it.

@ Borjam If you really have no problems with bird populations where you live, it must be a most unusual area since one in five birds in Europe, including birds that were once common or numerous, is now threatened or endangered. So either your observational skills aren't up to much, or you don't have much idea what used to be there and therefore have no standard of comparison.

If you want to argue, why don't you read some of the studies and we can go on from there? You keep reiterating the same points, but the discussion hasn't moved on a notch because you reuse to take any new information on board.

@ Chosun I really don't think giving up wireless is condemning the human race to a "luddite future"--far from it. The advancements in computers, AI, etc. would not be lost because we gave up wireless; we would simply have to use wired computers, as I do. I have to tell you, I don't feel in any way deprived. And when you see that something is causing vast harm on many levels, you should not bulldoze forward in the name of progress. This goes as much for pesticide use and wetland/forest destruction as for wireless, yet you would not claim that we should keep doing those things in the name of progress, would you? So why is wireless different?

I do not think we will ever find ways of mining and refining ores that do not cause vast environmental damage; it's the nature of the beast. And only about 10% of e-waste is recycled, at a huge toll in health of third-world citizens as well as environmental destruction. I doubt we can do better, either, though in theory that might be possible, because of a) cost and b) human nature. Man truly has a "heart of darkness" and there is no getting round it. Nor do I think that toxic mining and e-waste is a separate issue, since you cannot have mobile technology without them.

I have very little free time, but I will try to look up some of the studies I think you should read and tell you which posts they are attached to-- might take me a few days. Meanwhile you might listen to the Martin Pall radio interview, and also the piece Ed posted yesterday.

@ all Two interesting pieces to have a look at. One is a "letter of consent" to 5G small cells/cell towers that tells you what telecoms companies really ought to be saying when they ask for your permission to install one in front of your home (if they even do). That's at https://www.scribd.com/document/3637...ell#from_embed

The other is an extremely interesting piece on EMR and its effects on the eyes (it causes blindness) at www.wi-cancer.info/wieyes.aspx

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Old Yesterday, 12:51   #1136
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@ Chosun Take a look at the PDF Ed posted (post 1112) which is a slide show and sums up a lot of the major issues quite nicely. When considering EMR, it is worth remembering that NSW has, I believe, THE most protective guidelines of anywhere in the world. I don't know what the exposure levels in Greece actually are, by law (allegedly EU norm, but for all I know these are violated daily by the telecoms companies since no one is checking) but they could be 1000 times higher than what you have, and this could easily account for why I am observing many more problems than you seem to be. Even within the EU, exposure varies hugely.
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Old Today, 01:55   #1137
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Thanks Ed - point noted.

I will put it at the end of a very long list (haha - the reason I didn't want to become deeply involved in this thread - I haven't even seen 'my' peregrines for a few years!).

I've gone back and dug up the paper you posted:
Real versus Simulated Mobile Phone Exposures in
Experimental Studies
Dimitris J. Panagopoulos, et al

I think a summary of all papers posted (and links too) in this loooong thread would be helpful - if someone would be so kind .... ?

Thanks See you all down the track ..... :)

Chosun
Hi Chosun,

Summarizing all the papers on this thread is beyond me, and probably Diana. For my part, I'm attaching a 2010 Panagopoulos, et. al. paper on Drosophila melanogaster (flies), the one you found from 2015, and a 2003 Zwamborn, et. al. paper published by the Dutch TNO Physics and Electronics Laboratory on Homo sapiens (humans).

Although he published several papers dating back to the 1980's, the results from Panagopoulos' 2010 paper are stunning. I attached the two tables to an earlier post. The Zwamborn paper was agreeably multi-disciplinary and perhaps the most meticulous combination of physics, engineering, applied statistics, biology and behavioral science that I've come across. It invites criticism from all those disciplines over its 96 pages. From an experimental design and behavioral science perspective I certainly endorse it.

When it comes to reaching a science-based conclusion, I'm not a bean-counter. Quality research is what I rely on, and I look for critical papers such as these. Regulators, unfortunately, do the opposite. I imagine there's not much else they can do in a democracy than to count yeas and nays.

Enjoy,
Ed
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Old Today, 02:52   #1138
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Thanks Ed, Diana - I will try and digest those as time permits (I usually prefer [need] one big block, as opposed to bit by bit) ..... they'll have to take their place after peregrines and parents! though - so don't hold your breath this side of Christmas holidays - so best for those too


Chosun



P.S. @Diana - your 'views' on business, commerce, and e-waste etc, are wrong, and have probably exasperated many on here from replying - there are many worse industries generating more volume and more polluted waste. Check out how a modern large scale supply chain and distribution business is run and how integral 'wireless' is - and this is before the 'drones' start delivering everything from parcels to pizza .....

P.P.S. I've got wireless reception at my house (4G, 3G, HSPA, GPS, etc) ........ AND - I also have nesting Eastern Whip birds (quite rare for the suburban fringe), and nesting Satin Bower birds. Importantly, the place hasn't seen lawn mower, or watering (all natural takes care of it), or herbicides/pesticides for 20 odd years - it's a jungle! The birds are more in danger from stray cats, foxes, and the odd 6ft long goanna https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goanna (that really freaks the neighbours out! ) that roam through the place ......
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