• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Kowa TSN-663M vs Nikon Monarch 60ED-S vs Vortex Viper (1 Viewer)

alv_23

Member
Hello everyone,

I'm looking for my first scope and I have tons of doubts, but after having read a lot of reviews and articles, I've decided that I'm going to buy one of those 3 scopes.

Now, with a budget of 1200-1300€, which one do you consider offers the most for that price?
 
Hello everyone,

I'm looking for my first scope and I have tons of doubts, but after having read a lot of reviews and articles, I've decided that I'm going to buy one of those 3 scopes.

Now, with a budget of 1200-1300€, which one do you consider offers the most for that price?

I've used the Kowa 663M for a few years now and I love it, I think it is a vastly underrated 'scope. I haven't looked through the other two so can't offer an opinion as to whether they are better or worse. However I would offer a word of advice regarding the type of focus system on a 'scope, and how it can affect the enjoyment of the unit. Prior to the Kowa 663M I owned a Nikon ED82A, a scope which is almost universally well reviewed and liked, however I despised it as I could not get used to barrel focus, especially on the Nikon. There is little doubt that the image quality of the Nikon exceeds that of the Kowa, however I enjoy using the Kowa much more due to the physical characteristics of the scope (weight and focus system). Image quality is not the only factor to consider. I would recommend trying each of the scopes if possible, however that is something that is not so easy these days.
 
I've used the Kowa 663M for a few years now and I love it, I think it is a vastly underrated 'scope. I haven't looked through the other two so can't offer an opinion as to whether they are better or worse. However I would offer a word of advice regarding the type of focus system on a 'scope, and how it can affect the enjoyment of the unit. Prior to the Kowa 663M I owned a Nikon ED82A, a scope which is almost universally well reviewed and liked, however I despised it as I could not get used to barrel focus, especially on the Nikon. There is little doubt that the image quality of the Nikon exceeds that of the Kowa, however I enjoy using the Kowa much more due to the physical characteristics of the scope (weight and focus system). Image quality is not the only factor to consider. I would recommend trying each of the scopes if possible, however that is something that is not so easy these days.
Chris .... I agree , the focusing system can make or break how one enjoys any brand of spotting scope. The barrel focuser, the type I have on my Nikon EDG is a joy to use. So was the dual focuser on the Kowa 883 I owned. It all comes down to personal preference. In my situation, it was the combination of the spotting scopes physical handling and the numerous user friendly high end fixed eyepieces that made the overall package perfect for me.
 
I've used the Kowa 663M for a few years now and I love it, I think it is a vastly underrated 'scope. I haven't looked through the other two so can't offer an opinion as to whether they are better or worse. However I would offer a word of advice regarding the type of focus system on a 'scope, and how it can affect the enjoyment of the unit. Prior to the Kowa 663M I owned a Nikon ED82A, a scope which is almost universally well reviewed and liked, however I despised it as I could not get used to barrel focus, especially on the Nikon. There is little doubt that the image quality of the Nikon exceeds that of the Kowa, however I enjoy using the Kowa much more due to the physical characteristics of the scope (weight and focus system). Image quality is not the only factor to consider. I would recommend trying each of the scopes if possible, however that is something that is not so easy these days.

So, the Nikons have better image quality? (talking about that ED82A and the ED60A).

If that's the case I think I can spend a bit more and get them.

Another consideration is how easy is it to get fixed opticals, as the Kowa just has the 20-60 and a 30 if I don't remember bad.
 
I am also thinking about these models. If anyone can share their experiences of the aforementioned models against the Opticron MM4/60 as well, that would be very useful budget-wise!
 
So, the Nikons have better image quality? (talking about that ED82A and the ED60A).

If that's the case I think I can spend a bit more and get them.

Another consideration is how easy is it to get fixed opticals, as the Kowa just has the 20-60 and a 30 if I don't remember bad.

Hi,

it's really about sample variation... my old Kowa TSN-3 is not perfect in a star test, but quite good.

Kowa still offers a fixed 25x LER EP - admittedly more interesting for shooters. You can sometimes find 40x, 60x and 75x wide EPs used, but kinda rare.

Joachim
 
Hello @alv_23, Not sure if you have found your scope yet. We did not get a chance to check out Viper/Razor, but we did look through a Nikon 60ED-A, Opticron MM4/60, and ultimately ended up purchasing a Kowa 663M even though it had the relatively narrow 20-60 FoV eyepiece. We preferred the Kowa's colors, focus & ergonomics (like @chris/@gcole point out) , and sharpness. We also found it be a good bit more cost-effective. I do not have much experience with scopes, but from our naive comparisons, I am not inclined to say that the Nikon copy was better. If you can take a look through a few copies, that would be ideal as sample variation (like Joachim points out) is definitely an issue!

Cheers and good luck!
Kumar
 
Last edited:
Hello @alv_23, Not sure if you have found your scope yet. We did not get a chance to check out Viper/Razor, but we did look through a Nikon 60ED-A, Opticron MM4/60, and ultimately ended up purchasing a Kowa 663M even though it had the relatively narrow 20-60 FoV eyepiece. We preferred the Kowa's colors, focus & ergonomics (like @chris/@gcole point out) , and sharpness. We also found it be a good bit more cost-effective. I do not have much experience with scopes, but from our naive comparisons, I am not inclined to say that the Nikon copy was better. If you can take a look through a few copies, that would be ideal as sample variation (like Joachim points out) is definitely an issue!

Cheers and good luck!
Kumar

Hi!

I've just purchased the Kowa 663M with the 20-60 eyepiece. Going to receive it this week.

Now I'll save a bit of money and but the photography kit wo that I can use it with my sony a6000.
 
Hi!

I've just purchased the Kowa 663M with the 20-60 eyepiece. Going to receive it this week.

Now I'll save a bit of money and but the photography kit wo that I can use it with my sony a6000.

Congratulations on what I see as a very good choice. I still very much enjoy using my 663. One word of advice, if you have the chance pick up the 30x Wide EP also. My lovely wife bought this for me for Christmas. It is an excellent setup with this EP, very 'immersive' with edge to edge sharpness.
 
Congratulations on what I see as a very good choice. I still very much enjoy using my 663. One word of advice, if you have the chance pick up the 30x Wide EP also. My lovely wife bought this for me for Christmas. It is an excellent setup with this EP, very 'immersive' with edge to edge sharpness.

Thank you!

I'll take a look to that x30, but it'll have to wait as I'll have to save a bit and i want to buy the photography kit first.
 
Hey @alv_23, congrats on the 663M. Please share your in field experiences after you get to use them! Definitely make sure eye relief etc are OK/reasonable for you at the different zoom settings you care about.

If you do intend to use a tripod + head with your scope: I would not recommend the 128RC for this scope, primarily because of balancing issues. I own one and is such a pain. I would suggest going for something else that allows longer plates or better balancing (MVH500AH or something of that sort, keep the weight you want to carry also in mind). For the tripod legs, we have had no problems using a Gitzo 1 Series mountaineer (purchased used) for this scope. We have also used a Induro 3- series, an overkill I thought. I guess what I am suggesting is that you might not need the legs to be very heavy. You don't need to shell out on a brand new Gitzo / RRS when starting out as well. A comparable, budget friendly Sirui should do well! I know Marc (@marcsantacurz) loves his Sirui s. :) For even better mobility, some experienced folks just ditch the tripod all together and go for a monopod (with a 3-legged attachment at the bottom), and are still happy with the performance they derive from such travel scopes! Just a few options to consider if you are looking into support gear.

For the photography kit, I did purchase the Kowa TSN-PA8 and a T2 Kowa adapter for fitting it to a camera. Perhaps they are both overpriced for what they offer. While we don't have cheaper alternatives that fit as well as the PA8, for the T2 adapters, I would happily recommend going third party for a fraction of the price. We have used third party T2 adapters on our other cameras as well with no problem, we don't find any difference in the output. In terms of what you can expect from this system, the output images are nice for recording wildlife at much farther distances. Of course, the resolution etc., won't be as great as what you can achieve with a DSLR + tele lens at much closer distances because of various reasons, the output is still enjoyable! I still can't believe we video-d wolves and bears of the Yellowstone miles away with such organic feel.

Cheers, and looking forward to your experiences! Enjoy!
Kumar
 
Last edited:
Warning! This thread is more than 4 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top