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Sparrow hawks (1 Viewer)

saluki said:
Would it? Wouldn't it follow that the weakest are often the 'unlikiest'?

saluki
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Yes, but the unluckiest aren't always the weakest :)
My point was that the sparrowhawk wasn't looking at a group of birds and determining the oldest/sickest/inexperienced although this may happen at certain times of year - when there are plenty of juveniles/newly fledged, but, more often than not, surprising a flock of feeding birds and grabbing whichever it could.

Of course it may be that the fittest bird is most dominant and can take up the best, most central, feeding position and the weaker/older/younger birds are left on the outside and as a consequence are the ones most often caught.

I suppose which happens most would/should determine whether it was survival of fittest or the luckiest.
 
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esmondb said:
Yes, but the unluckiest aren't always the weakest :)
My point was that the sparrowhawk wasn't looking at a group of birds and determining the oldest/sickest/inexperienced although this may happen at certain times of year - when there are plenty of juveniles/newly fledged, but, more often than not, surprising a flock of feeding birds and grabbing whichever it could.

Of course it may be that the fittest bird is most dominant and can take up the best, most central, feeding position and the weaker/older/younger birds are left on the outside and as a consequence are the ones most often caught.

I suppose which happens most would/should determine whether it was survival of fittest or the luckiest.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's that the fittest birds get the best position in the flock, more the fact that a weak bird will naturally be physically slower, and may not respond to danger quite so quickly as a healthy bird. So, whilst no raptor may actually seek out a weak or old bird, they are often the one that is the most readily available to the hawk.

saluki
 
I've just witnessed the local female chasing one of the many blackbirds in the garden around a tree. The blackbird got away and the sparrowhaw sat looking dejected on the tree branch. I noticed yesterday she was also unlucky (in my area at least).

My question is, will the sparrowhawk also feed on carrion is nothing else is available?
 
helenol said:
I've just witnessed the local female chasing one of the many blackbirds in the garden around a tree. The blackbird got away and the sparrowhaw sat looking dejected on the tree branch. I noticed yesterday she was also unlucky (in my area at least).

My question is, will the sparrowhawk also feed on carrion is nothing else is available?
Click to expand...

I think it's been recorded but I don't think it's normal behaviour. A Spar will return to it's own kill the same, or even the next day, if the prey was sufficiently large enough for it not to finish it at one go. A relation of mine stopped a Spar killing his pigeons by weaning it onto dead day old chicks, which he used to place on the roof of a shed!

saluki
 
Various methods have been used to get the Sparrowhawk to come to bait (carrion), chopped up rabbit (dead of course) day old chickens that have died in the poultry farm, road kills, all work to some extent. The keepers have been doing it for years, some even use live bait. These methods also work for other so called vermin, such as buzzards, polecats, pine martens, ravens etc, and yes, even the peregrine will come down to bait.
 
I like Spars reference to the Sparrowhawk flown from the fist, I've observed these birds many times taking prey in a variety of methods, most of which have already been mentioned, however, the most spectacular method is when the bird, waiting on high for something to fly through it's territory, suddenly dives at high speed onto the unsuspecting prey. A female Sparrowhawk in full dive is not far removed from a goshawk, the impact of the kill is just as impressive with a cloud of feather dust being observed as the bird impacts. If you're close enough you can hear the thud of the impact, this is usually followed by both birds tumbling down out of the sky to the ground. Marvellous, reduce the Sparrowhawk numbers, WHY?? This behaviour has been going on for thousands of years, there was no effect on the passerine populations for all that time, it's only in the last hundred years or so when man started to interfere with habitat and food availability that the wee birds started to decline. We tend to forget that we put the Sparrowhawk and many other species on the edge of extinction in this country and in other parts of the world not so many years ago. The DDT's and Organoclorines caused serious damage, so bad that the Government of the day were worried about the effects it may be having on humans, so they eventually banned it. DDT's are still used quite openly in some of the so called 3rd world countries, some of these countries receive massive grant aid from the UK, USA and others.
 
Most of you may have this book but i thought one or two of you may be interested in "the sparrowhawk" by Ian Newton. It is a book solely about the said bird which gives a good incite into the life of the sparrowhawk. Might answer a question or two for those which are interested.
 
Predation

I don't know how old you are (I'm 35), but when I was a kid, if we saw a magpie it was fairly unusual. Nowadays, magpies are on a blind snail's daylist.
Magpies are, at least, partly responsible for the decline in songbird population, there is absolutely no doubt. If one magpie takes one egg from a nest once a week, then it stands to reason that if the population has increased by more than 60% in the last 20 years, then so has the predation.
We cannot ignore the facts, I have been an RSPB member all my life, a BTO member for 12 years and a ringer's helper for 20 years. In those years magpies have increased by a matter of 4:1 and sparrowhawks have increased by 3:2.
Let us not be ignorant to the changes in farming practice, environmental changes or over-development, but the predators are not by any means blameless.
 
I can't never find any proof that Magpies or any other Corvid has lead to a decline in songBird species nor the same for BOP. Sure these Birds raid nests ect but nature is just 1 big menu card, in fact I seem to recall a study on an area where they culled magpies and found there was less SongBird Diversity than in areas where they had High numbers of Magpies. Its a good cop out the old Corvid card. So what you are implying is that SongBirds are at an Evolutionary dead end! the real problem falls firmly at the feet of loss of habitat, and modern farming practices ect
As for the Magpie I'm not even sure they have not just regained there intial population pre 19th century the population seems stable now but they sufferd mercilessly at the hands of gamekeepers and in fact by the 1940s was only common in parts of the lowlands with severly reduced populations in East Anglia and Northern Scotland. Its important to think scientifically about such a claim there is no evidence to support it despite several good efforts by "Magpie Haters"
 
Oh and there are lots of other prey items for Magpies in citys (where there has been the biggest population increase) dead pigeons that sort of thing, so they have adapted to the enviroment of the inner city preying less on nests and relying more on carrion? I dunno but its certainly a little pants to be playing the Corvid card yet again!
 
This part of the argument always puzzles me? A similar point was made about grey seals causing the decline of cod stocks. Fisherman saw: 1, grey seal numbers increasing and 2, less cod in their nets and came to the comclusion that the seals must be blossoming at the cost of the cod.
How can a predator continue to increase in population, while its prey decreases?
The main factors that lead to the decline or recovery of any animal on this scale are normally of human making.
Any thoughts?
 
rogerk said:
Magpies are, at least, partly responsible for the decline in songbird population, there is absolutely no doubt.
Click to expand...
Where is your evidence? All the studies that I know have say the opposite.
 
Ranger James said:
This part of the argument always puzzles me? A similar point was made about grey seals causing the decline of cod stocks. Fisherman saw: 1, grey seal numbers increasing and 2, less cod in their nets and came to the comclusion that the seals must be blossoming at the cost of the cod.
How can a predator continue to increase in population, while its prey decreases?
The main factors that lead to the decline or recovery of any animal on this scale are normally of human making.
Any thoughts?
Click to expand...


If magpie numbers are increasing steadily and songbird populations are declining steadily surely it could follow that the maggies are exploiting another food source? Otherwise the maggie population would be limited by the songbird population.

If magpie numbers are increasing due to this exploitation could it not also follow that the higher magpie survival rate is, indeed, reducing songbird populations because they are not reliant on that food source alone but there are more of them to predate the songbirds?

I'm just playing devils advocate here, actually I'm on the sprawks side.

Woody
 
"If magpie numbers are increasing due to this exploitation could it not also follow that the higher magpie survival rate is, indeed, reducing songbird populations because they are not reliant on that food source alone but there are more of them to predate the songbirds?"

i think thats certainly a good point. Sparrowhawks who almost exclusively eat songbirds would be affected by a decline in songbirds, and are dependant upon them. A magpie on the other hand can exploit a lot of food sources, a songbird decline would neccessarily mean a magpie decline (although they may be affected). Magpies are not dependant upon songbird populations.

This COULD mean, that while the songbirds are in decline ...the magpies may stay at stable levels preying on other things...and could prey on the declining songbirds causing further decline?
 
In reply to rogerk, I've been around a lot longer than you (not saying how long mind you) and in all that time there's always been plenty of Magpies, especially around the towns and cities. What has changed dramatically is the amount of waste food we human beings throw away, check the local tips. No other creature in this whole world is as wasteful as a human, I'm no exception, no wonder birds like the Magpie are thriving. I never cease to wonder why we are so ready to blame the birds of prey, the Crows and the Foxes for all our faults. What about the shepherd who can't be bothered tending his sheep, he'll blame the Golden Eagle or a Fox when his lambs die of neglect and are picked up by them. The gamekeeper who's moorland is slowly dying through years of bad management and fires, he'll blame the Hen Harriers and the Peregrines. The farmers and the fishermen, they continue to drain the bogs, cut down the hedgerows (unless there's a grant for leaving them of course), rape the sea of anything that'll fit in a net and still the seabirds fall off their nests with starvation. They'll blame anything that deprives them of a pound rightly or wrongly. It's nature you see.
 
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nirofo said:
Various methods have been used to get the Sparrowhawk to come to bait (carrion), chopped up rabbit (dead of course) day old chickens that have died in the poultry farm, road kills, all work to some extent. The keepers have been doing it for years, some even use live bait. These methods also work for other so called vermin, such as buzzards, polecats, pine martens, ravens etc, and yes, even the peregrine will come down to bait.
Click to expand...

You may be right nirofo, personally I've never heard of a 'keeper using bait to attract Spars. Most Spars are caught using cage traps similar to Larsen (or, indeed, converted Larsens) traps, baited with live small birds. A unscrupulous keeper might well lace any kill he came across with poison, in the hope that he'd kill any raptor returning for a meal, but I wouldn't class that as carrion.

saluki
 
You're right saluki, I don't think the keepers set out bait just for sparrowhawks, they probably set it out for other species but get the Spar anyway. I've used the baited pole myself when photographing various birds of prey, most come down quite regularly once they have got used to it.
 
Woody said:
If magpie numbers are increasing steadily and songbird populations are declining steadily surely it could follow that the maggies are exploiting another food source? Otherwise the maggie population would be limited by the songbird population.

If magpie numbers are increasing due to this exploitation could it not also follow that the higher magpie survival rate is, indeed, reducing songbird populations because they are not reliant on that food source alone but there are more of them to predate the songbirds?

I'm just playing devils advocate here, actually I'm on the sprawks side.

Woody
Click to expand...


I agree entirely Woody, raptors usually get lumped together with corvids when examining the reasons for songbird decline in the UK. IMO this is entirely wrong, for the reason you suggest. I'm a firm believer that prey numbers control the predator - not vice versa. Sparrowhawks, for instance, have no choice - if the number of prey items diminishes then the hawk will starve to death. Magpies, on the other hand, can turn to other sources of food, if neccessary.

saluki
 
Which came first, the chicken or the egg. It's the usual cleft stick situation. Predator needs prey - where did the prey come from - there are too many prey - where's the predators to reduce them. It's a never ending story, the only end result is the one that we, as the ultimate predator manufacture ourselves!!!!!!!!!!

nirofo.
 
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