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Identifying Honey Buzzards?? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Andrew Rowlands
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Michael Frankis
conehead
Spar said:
It isn't a conifer :king:
Andrew Rowlands
Well-known member
Hi all,
Judging by the peregrinations of the last batch of posts, I guess we've sorted out the likely cause of the misidentifications on Nicks site.
Wayne, in his second post to this Forum said:-
Having already stated that I do not have Forsman's book, I cannot say for sure: but if the top Euro raptor expert has a glitch in his book, then we can hardly blame Nick personally for his lack of experience.
After all, each of us has to rely on the 'best available' science when we come up against something new. If that data is flawed, then all of our conclusions and 'best guesses' will be coloured by that.
We all have to start somewhere but few have the opportunity to be coached by an acknowledged expert, in the field, where it counts most.
Thanks to everyone for turning this from a bit of a wild attack into an excellent thread. Wicked quiz too.
Thanks again and best wishes to all who took the time to make a good, clean fight of it.
Regards,
Andy.
P.S. shall I delete the thread now?
Judging by the peregrinations of the last batch of posts, I guess we've sorted out the likely cause of the misidentifications on Nicks site.
Wayne, in his second post to this Forum said:-
wpercy said:
Having already stated that I do not have Forsman's book, I cannot say for sure: but if the top Euro raptor expert has a glitch in his book, then we can hardly blame Nick personally for his lack of experience.
After all, each of us has to rely on the 'best available' science when we come up against something new. If that data is flawed, then all of our conclusions and 'best guesses' will be coloured by that.
We all have to start somewhere but few have the opportunity to be coached by an acknowledged expert, in the field, where it counts most.
Thanks to everyone for turning this from a bit of a wild attack into an excellent thread. Wicked quiz too.
Thanks again and best wishes to all who took the time to make a good, clean fight of it.
Regards,
Andy.
P.S. shall I delete the thread now?
Andrew Rowlands
Well-known member
Cheers Steve,
'nite.
Andy.
'nite.
Andy.
Hi all,
Was away for a while,so couldn't take part in the "coconut competition",but was pleasantly surprised to get about 7-8 right(based on what others said),given that my own field experience of HB is extremely limited(saw some late migrant HB's in Bulgaria late Sep.99,also a few CB's there and here,but don't see them that regularly).It would appear that they aren't that bad if seen well.
Have yet to check out Nick's website,but will do so,and will pass on my thoughts.
Harry H
Was away for a while,so couldn't take part in the "coconut competition",but was pleasantly surprised to get about 7-8 right(based on what others said),given that my own field experience of HB is extremely limited(saw some late migrant HB's in Bulgaria late Sep.99,also a few CB's there and here,but don't see them that regularly).It would appear that they aren't that bad if seen well.
Have yet to check out Nick's website,but will do so,and will pass on my thoughts.
Harry H
Nick has now added some further comments to his Honey Buzzard page but is still under the impression that some of the obvious Common Buzzards (including the Staufen bird!) are Honeys - though he has back-tracked somewhat on the Finnish bird. I'm reluctant to get into the identification of individual birds as many of the images do not contain the necessary detail for me personally to make a judgement but I generally see few clear indications of Honey Buzzard except for the birds at Liege
and, perhaps, that in Perthshire. I wonder whether one of the birds might actually be a Marsh Harrier....
I assume from the lack of response to my queries regarding the moult timing of Honey Buzzards in Europe that nobody following this thread (and that includes several observers with far more recent and extensive experience of Eurasian Honey than me!) has ever seen a Honey Buzzard in wing moult in May?.
Unless there is any convincing evidence to the contrary I'd suggest that any buzzard-like bird seen before mid-June which shows signs of primary moult cannot be a Honey buzzard and is almost certainly a 2nd-calendar year Common Buzzard. Because such birds still retain juvenile wing and tail feathers they are likely to appear somewhat different in jizz to adults due to the narrower wings and longer tails of juv's and represent an obvious pitfall for the unwary. Small changes in wing position and perhaps even flight action are also likely to occur in such birds as the feathers of the wing are held in such a way as to minimise the impact of any gaps in the wing caused by missing feathers.
Hope you saw the 'be-bop' Harry!
Spud
Sorry Harry, just noticed in another thread that you didn't see it.
and, perhaps, that in Perthshire. I wonder whether one of the birds might actually be a Marsh Harrier....
I assume from the lack of response to my queries regarding the moult timing of Honey Buzzards in Europe that nobody following this thread (and that includes several observers with far more recent and extensive experience of Eurasian Honey than me!) has ever seen a Honey Buzzard in wing moult in May?.
Unless there is any convincing evidence to the contrary I'd suggest that any buzzard-like bird seen before mid-June which shows signs of primary moult cannot be a Honey buzzard and is almost certainly a 2nd-calendar year Common Buzzard. Because such birds still retain juvenile wing and tail feathers they are likely to appear somewhat different in jizz to adults due to the narrower wings and longer tails of juv's and represent an obvious pitfall for the unwary. Small changes in wing position and perhaps even flight action are also likely to occur in such birds as the feathers of the wing are held in such a way as to minimise the impact of any gaps in the wing caused by missing feathers.
Hope you saw the 'be-bop' Harry!
Spud
Sorry Harry, just noticed in another thread that you didn't see it.
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Edward woodwood
Member
Nick's had a fairly torrid time time of it lately. Comments have varied from almost all of his birds being commons to only a couple or so being dodgy. Anyone want to stick therir neck on the line and say which are and are not Honey's?
Nick Rossiter
Well-known member
Re: moult
CBizz, Red kite and Black Kite all start their moult at egg-laying time so you might expect HB to start at the same time, that is mid-May to early June. It's a sensible use of the time for the female. Moulting and re-growing 3-4 primaries would take perhaps 8 weeks so the wings become whole again in late July which fits in with my experience. Two weeks a feather is a reasonable pace. Has anybody seen HB in moult in August/September?
From another tack buzzard-type birds with full wing in June and July cannot be CBuzz adults as they will be in moult. Juvenile CBuzz in Northumberland do not fledge normally until the last ten days of July so I have no doubt about the provenance of my HB photos shown for this time, the July bird being a male which sometimes apparently do not moult at all in Britain.
Cheers ... Nick
CBizz, Red kite and Black Kite all start their moult at egg-laying time so you might expect HB to start at the same time, that is mid-May to early June. It's a sensible use of the time for the female. Moulting and re-growing 3-4 primaries would take perhaps 8 weeks so the wings become whole again in late July which fits in with my experience. Two weeks a feather is a reasonable pace. Has anybody seen HB in moult in August/September?
From another tack buzzard-type birds with full wing in June and July cannot be CBuzz adults as they will be in moult. Juvenile CBuzz in Northumberland do not fledge normally until the last ten days of July so I have no doubt about the provenance of my HB photos shown for this time, the July bird being a male which sometimes apparently do not moult at all in Britain.
Cheers ... Nick
I thought I already done this to some extent Tim,
The Liege bird is a Honey, the Perthshire bird probably is, any in wing moult in May (several) are Common (in my view) and the birds at Staufen and in Finland are Common based on observable plumage features
The rest are beyond my powers I'm afraid but show no features to me that unequivocally make them Honey's. As the purpose of the HB page, according to Nick, is to show how Honey Buzzards can change their appearance it must be viewed as a failure because, unfortunately, the author does not always seem able to distinguish these birds himself.
Nick has had a torrid time, but if you put your stuff in the public domain you must anticipate the possibility of it being challenged. I note also that Nick himself quickly resorted to direct personal attacks on the abilities of others, most of the posts have been more diplomatic.
Spud
The Liege bird is a Honey, the Perthshire bird probably is, any in wing moult in May (several) are Common (in my view) and the birds at Staufen and in Finland are Common based on observable plumage features
The rest are beyond my powers I'm afraid but show no features to me that unequivocally make them Honey's. As the purpose of the HB page, according to Nick, is to show how Honey Buzzards can change their appearance it must be viewed as a failure because, unfortunately, the author does not always seem able to distinguish these birds himself.
Nick has had a torrid time, but if you put your stuff in the public domain you must anticipate the possibility of it being challenged. I note also that Nick himself quickly resorted to direct personal attacks on the abilities of others, most of the posts have been more diplomatic.
Spud
Edward woodwood
Member
Hi Spud
cheers for the reply - those are the two that I would be most sceptical about too. Anyone out there who reckons more of them are NOT Honeys bearing in mind the problems posed by Steve's quiz with much better pix.......
cheers for the reply - those are the two that I would be most sceptical about too. Anyone out there who reckons more of them are NOT Honeys bearing in mind the problems posed by Steve's quiz with much better pix.......
I`ll stick my neck out...having now had a really good long look i would say that ALL of the birds, but maybe just one are Common Buzzards,exept the birds added later(liege),i dont expect people to take my word for it,so if necessary i will get all the very experienced Honey watchers i know(including one who is on the BBRC)to give there verdicts,THEY ARE COMMON BUZZARDS.
Wayne.
Wayne.
Edward woodwood
Member
only one Honey
or all Honey but two?
getting more interesting by the post
yours provokingly
Tim
or all Honey but two?
getting more interesting by the post
yours provokingly
Tim
Nick Rossiter
Well-known member
Please, WPercy, give your reasons for the HB in Northumberland in June and July being CBuzz. You must know something about moult and poses that is extra special.
Has anybody got close enough to HBs to hear them call? I've been expecting more feedback on this topic.
Finally I should point out that I did not solicit comments on this part of my web site at this time. Andy Mabbett did that. Never mind -- it speeded up the annotations!
With best wishes ... Nick
Has anybody got close enough to HBs to hear them call? I've been expecting more feedback on this topic.
Finally I should point out that I did not solicit comments on this part of my web site at this time. Andy Mabbett did that. Never mind -- it speeded up the annotations!
With best wishes ... Nick
Andrew Rowlands
Well-known member
Hi Nick,
Anyhing Mabbett writes or posts gets killfiltered by me!
Can you give more details?
Cheers,
Andy.
Anyhing Mabbett writes or posts gets killfiltered by me!
Can you give more details?
Cheers,
Andy.
Nick, the birds June are clearly Common Buzzard,the tail is to short,the head is to big and the wing shape wrong,image 2 shows nicely the "no neck" and large head,and image 5...well a classic shot of a Common.
Nick also asked about calls,i have heard Honeys call in probably all circumstances,alarmed at nest,bringing food to young, young calling for food etc,so i listened to nicks recordings...........oops
they are...yes Common Buzzard,very poor quality but i heard nothing but Common.
Can we assume that because Nick is now only defending the june birds in Northumberland that he has now accepted that the rest are Common?.
Clearly nick needs to go where Honeys occur and get some experience, he will find out that as i said, when known well they are really Quite different.
Wayne.
Nick also asked about calls,i have heard Honeys call in probably all circumstances,alarmed at nest,bringing food to young, young calling for food etc,so i listened to nicks recordings...........oops
they are...yes Common Buzzard,very poor quality but i heard nothing but Common.
Can we assume that because Nick is now only defending the june birds in Northumberland that he has now accepted that the rest are Common?.
Clearly nick needs to go where Honeys occur and get some experience, he will find out that as i said, when known well they are really Quite different.
Wayne.
Nick Rossiter
Well-known member
Wayne, I simply point these out because they should be in moult if they are CBuzz. The tails are longer than the wing width.,very unlikely in CBuzz at this time of year. The calls are not alarm or feeding calls but display calls. The trisyllabic and multisyllabic calls are characteristic of HB.
So I ask again, if they are CBuzz why are they not in moult?
All the best ... Nick
So I ask again, if they are CBuzz why are they not in moult?
All the best ... Nick
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