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Native birds

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Old Tuesday 5th March 2019, 20:54   #1
mattdavis1979
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Native birds

Would birds who winter in other areas away from where they breed, be considered native to the wintering grounds as well as where they breed? Because if the species in question was not introduced to either area, wouldn't it be considered native to both areas?

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Old Tuesday 5th March 2019, 21:35   #2
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Yes, wintering areas count as native, e.g. Iceland Gull is native in Britain, even though it has never bred here


Even natural vagrants count as native, so birds like Evening Grosbeak are native in Britain even though there's only been 2 or 3 records ever.
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Old Wednesday 6th March 2019, 05:14   #3
andyadcock
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Originally Posted by Nutcracker View Post
Yes, wintering areas count as native, e.g. Iceland Gull is native in Britain, even though it has never bred here


Even natural vagrants count as native, so birds like Evening Grosbeak are native in Britain even though there's only been 2 or 3 records ever.
Surely not, it would be listed as a vagrant, not native at all?
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Old Wednesday 6th March 2019, 09:44   #4
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Old Wednesday 6th March 2019, 09:51   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutcracker View Post
Yes, wintering areas count as native, e.g. Iceland Gull is native in Britain, even though it has never bred here


Even natural vagrants count as native, so birds like Evening Grosbeak are native in Britain even though there's only been 2 or 3 records ever.
Can't see that myself I'm afraid. Winter visitors are just that, whereas others that are resident all year are natives imo.
Same goes for summer visitors, vagrants etc.
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Old Wednesday 6th March 2019, 10:38   #6
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Can't see that myself I'm afraid. Winter visitors are just that, whereas others that are resident all year are natives imo.
Same goes for summer visitors, vagrants etc.
P
They're different types of classification.


Native is versus introduced, and simply means a species got to a place by itself, as opposed to being put there by humans.


Resident, summer/winter/passage visitor, vagrant describes what the species does at the place.
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Old Wednesday 6th March 2019, 12:03   #7
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Originally Posted by Nutcracker View Post
They're different types of classification.


Native is versus introduced, and simply means a species got to a place by itself, as opposed to being put there by humans.


Resident, summer/winter/passage visitor, vagrant describes what the species does at the place.
I see where you are coming from on that but surely you wouldn't class a vagrant as native. Surely the fact that it would not occur under normal conditions precludes it from being a native?
Totally agree that migrants, either those breeding here and then wintering elsewhere or vice versa would be classed as native.
In respect of passage migrants then I could also concede that, if we are part of their natural migration route and they stop off to rest, feed, moult etc then there is a case for calling them native, but a wind blown American passerine that fetches up on the Shetlands or Scillies once every few decades could not really be classed as a native species surely.

I understand the point about Naturally occurring as opposed to introduced but that is not the same as native, which implies a certain origination and sustainability.
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Old Wednesday 6th March 2019, 14:33   #8
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Originally Posted by Nutcracker View Post
They're different types of classification.


Native is versus introduced, and simply means a species got to a place by itself, as opposed to being put there by humans.


Resident, summer/winter/passage visitor, vagrant describes what the species does at the place.
Sorry Nutty, got to dissent here.
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Old Wednesday 6th March 2019, 15:31   #9
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Originally Posted by Paul Longland View Post
In respect of passage migrants then I could also concede that, if we are part of their natural migration route and they stop off to rest, feed, moult etc then there is a case for calling them native, but a wind blown American passerine that fetches up on the Shetlands or Scillies once every few decades could not really be classed as a native species surely.
Your problem then is, where do you draw a line as to what to include and what not to include? There is a full continuum of gradation from common passage/winter visitors down through rare but regular, to just a single record. BOU count them all as Category A, all native naturally occurring, as opposed to Category C, not native.
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Old Wednesday 6th March 2019, 15:44   #10
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Your problem then is, where do you draw a line as to what to include and what not to include? There is a full continuum of gradation from common passage/winter visitors down through rare but regular, to just a single record. BOU count them all as Category A, all native naturally occurring, as opposed to Category C, not native.
I agree but I still think you are confusing native with naturally occurring which is not the same thing.

Would you class an aboriginal Australian or Inuit American here for a once in a lifetime weeks holiday as a native of the British Isles? No but if they decided to settle here then they would become "naturalized" citizens and their offspring would definitely be classed as native. Not quite the same but it illustrates my point.

Ultimately we are debating semantics here really. If something occurs naturally rather than through human intervention (ie escaped wildfowl etc) then its fair game for tick when all said and done!
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Old Wednesday 6th March 2019, 17:31   #11
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I agree but I still think you are confusing native with naturally occurring which is not the same thing.

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Old Wednesday 6th March 2019, 19:01   #12
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I have to agree with Andy and Paul here.

I simply can't say that a Rock Wren is native to Pennsylvania, although we've had one for sure!
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Old Wednesday 6th March 2019, 19:36   #13
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English not being my native language I thought that that shouldn't deter me from making a modest contribution
I think "native" is not the best term to use when referring to the natural range of a species (i.e. where it occurs with no direct human aid: no transportation, basically - usually this means no intentional transportation when we refer to birds, but this is not straightforward because we don't use the same concept when talking about other living beings).
The answer to this question in on the etymology of the word "native", I believe. The word "native" comes from a Latin word, and means that it was born on that place (thus it wouldn't apply to the wintering range, although that is still part of its natural range). From a quick internet search I get the following info: "Native": late Middle English: from Latin nativus, from nat- ‘born’, from the verb nasci.
Perhaps I'm completely wrong on the way this word is used by native English speakers, but I thought this would bring a different point of view to the discussion. :) What say you, you native speakers?
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Old Wednesday 6th March 2019, 21:36   #14
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That's still fraught with difficulties - by that definition for starters, I'm a Danish native

It still doesn't leave you with a realistic definable take on what is 'native'. For UK, do you count Spotted Sandpiper (has bred once), Snowy Owl (one pair bred for several successive years), Brambling (2 or 3 UK breeding records), Parrot Crossbill (small numbers breed in most years, but maybe not all), or conversely, Knot (hundreds of thousands in winter, but not one single breeding record).

I'd still say the only workable definition is [for UK] being in Category A of the UK list (insert other countries and category names as relevant).
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Old Wednesday 6th March 2019, 21:53   #15
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Originally Posted by birdmeister View Post
I simply can't say that a Rock Wren is native to Pennsylvania, although we've had one for sure!
What about ....?
Golden Eagle?
Stilt Sandpiper?
Franklin's Gull?
Northern Shrike?
Cape May Warbler?
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Old Wednesday 6th March 2019, 22:02   #16
RafaelMatias
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That's still fraught with difficulties - by that definition for starters, I'm a Danish native

It still doesn't leave you with a realistic definable take on what is 'native'. For UK, do you count Spotted Sandpiper (has bred once), Snowy Owl (one pair bred for several successive years), Brambling (2 or 3 UK breeding records), Parrot Crossbill (small numbers breed in most years, but maybe not all), or conversely, Knot (hundreds of thousands in winter, but not one single breeding record).
True, but I was seeing it (being native or not) more as a classification for a species than for specific records (where a species has originated, biogeographically, i.e. where it has evolved). But those examples clearly show it's more complicated. Say Spotted Sandpipers had survived in Scotland and a viable population had originated there. Would it then become native? I'm probably just complicating things :)

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I'd still say the only workable definition is [for UK] being in Category A of the UK list (insert other countries and category names as relevant).
Indeed that is a practical classification. But I don't think it answers the original question, that was what criteria could be used to consider one given bird (species) native or not, within its natural range.
Categories A and B (we use the same in Portugal, by the way) give you information basically on 2 things: on the date the last good record took place (pre or post 1950) and if there has been human intervention or not ("not" for both A and C, with a borderline issue regarding ship-assisted individuals); then you have C (introduced and coming from introduced populations), D and E (escapes), and more recently F. But it refers to individual records, not to the species as a whole (I mean, there's no biogeographic info in there, which I think is what the original question is mostly about). For example, although you have Ancient Murrelet on Cat. A of the British List, perhaps calling it a native species would be a bit of a stretch :)
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Old Friday 8th March 2019, 14:35   #17
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But it refers to individual records, not to the species as a whole (I mean, there's no biogeographic info in there, which I think is what the original question is mostly about). For example, although you have Ancient Murrelet on Cat. A of the British List, perhaps calling it a native species would be a bit of a stretch :)
This is pretty much what I was saying. To be remotely classed as native implies some origination not simply a one off occurrence.
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