gulls (1 Viewer)

Lou on the subject of names.

I don't have the same access to scientific papers as you obviously do - I am a Land Surveyor - a map maker - not part of the ornithological or scientific community and have only my field guides as my aids. They are confusing enough and when it comes to our large gulls of no help what so ever. As to names - the ones you use are new, the thinking behind them based on recent studies, our field guides in the M/E do not reflect these changes. People in the Middle east are simply told that people in Europe have renamed the birds. Take the Case of Houbara Bustard for instance - No Arab in his right mind is going to call it Macqueens it will remain forever Houbara here.

My last field guide bought was the Collins - Bird Guide - it does not cover the middle Gulf unfortunately. In it under Yellow Legged Gull, (text against the illustration) states that ssp cachinnans are similiar but told by eg. having more evenly thick bill, slimmer shape and longer legs and wings hence my thoughts in previous posts.

I hope this in part helps explain my confusion. It would be really nice to see an authorative page with annotated photos or diagrams to assist identification. I just like Gulls and the problems they cause and with the invention of digital cameras able now to share what we have here even if there is nobody else around in the gulf who gives a dam

Thanks for the paper - a lot of the sience I do not understand but give me time. I note however author uses Herring Gull and Southern Herring as names.

todays bird I have put down as Heuglin's (Siberian) - can you comment on moult again taken on 26th Jan

They look like heuglini - but where they as dark as they appear to be in this image?
Both seems to be without any markings on head and neck, which made me think of barabensis for the at least the one with closed wings, which also fits barabensis structurally.
On the one with open wings strikes me as a little odd for heuglini (it could be an adult or near adult) at this time of year is the worn primary tips on p 5-8 while p9 & 10 seems to be fresher looking but p3 & 2 looks worn and p1 missing. Late moulter as heuglini usually is, fiishing p-moult in Jan - Feb (some earlier, some later than this). Are we seeing a strange moult pattern here?

Janj

Image is darker than usual - we seem to have lost the sun of late - the day was dull very dull and overcast with a touch of rain -

JanJ I mentioned the moult as I was under the impression that it was only Heuglini that moulted this late - can you tell please for our gulls the moult periods for each I do not have this information and think it might help with identification

As to the bird in the back ground I am not certain have other images of these in a group if you want can put them up

Lou

found this in another post on the forum is this correct
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In the past, the "traditional" classification has been :
- Herring gull Larus argentatus, with sspp. argentatus, argenteus, smithsonianus and vegae;
- Yellow-legged gull Larus cachinnans, with sspp. cachinnans, michahellis, atlantis, armenicus, barabensis and mongolicus;
- LBB gull Larus fuscus, with sspp. fuscus, intermedius, graellsii, heuglini and taimyrensis.
(NB - "L. michahellis cachinnans" is a nomenclatural impossibility.)
The most frequent variation from this has been the recognition of Armenian gull Larus armenicus as an additional monotypic species (HBW, Howard & Moore, etc...).

This classification, however, has never been recognised by the BOU. Assuming the last (4th) TSC report is representative of the previous position of the BOU prior to the recent splits (? - the position of the BOU regarding several taxa unrecorded in Britain had in fact never been made clear before these splits were published...), the situation would have been :
- Herring gull L. argentatus, with sspp. argentatus, argenteus, smithsonianus, vegae, taimyrensis, heuglini, cachinnans, michahellis, atlantis, armenicus, barabensis and mongolicus;
- LBB gull L. fuscus with sspp. fuscus, intermedius and graellsii.

In their 3rd report, the BOURC-TSC separated yellow-legged and Armenian gull from this very broad herring gull, but with yellow-legged gull limited to the Mediterranean/Atlantic forms (i.e., cachinnans and the more eastern taxa were kept in the herring gull). Thus :
- Yellow-legged gull L. michahellis, with sspp. michahellis and atlantis;
- Armenian gull L. armenicus, monotypic;
- Herring gull L. argentatus, with sspp. argentatus, argenteus, smithsonianus, vegae, taimyrensis, heuglini, cachinnans, barabensis and mongolicus;
- LBB gull L. fuscus with sspp. fuscus, intermedius and graellsii.

In their 4th report, they further separated Caspian gull, and American herring gull, the latter including smithsonianus, vegae and mongolicus, and they transferred heuglini, taimyrensis and barabensis to LBB gull. Which then gives :
- Yellow-legged gull L. michahellis, with sspp. michahellis and atlantis;
- Armenian gull L. armenicus, monotypic;
- Herring gull L. argentatus, with sspp. argentatus and argenteus;
- American herring gull L. smithsonianus, with sspp. smithsonianus, vegae and mongolicus;
- Caspian gull L. cachinnans, monotypic;
- LBB gull L. fuscus with sspp. fuscus, intermedius, graellsii, taimyrensis, heuglini and barabensis.

"Baltic gull" should be Larus fuscus fuscus, indeed.
But beware that "Baltic herring gull" is a colloquial term to designate L. argentatus argentatus from the Baltic sea area (particularly from those populations where yellow legs occur quite regularly, and that have been called "L. argentatus omissus").

Regarding moult - which is variable, in heuglini, barabensis (see the taxonomy note you´ve linked above here), fuscus (Baltic Gull and cachinnans if we stick to those, see here:

http://www.gull-research.org/heuglini/heug5cy.html

http://www.gull-research.org/heuglini/heug2cy.html

The above moult is complete moult for adults mainly, younger (immatures) moults earlier.
The post juvenile partial moult in heuglini (and Baltic fuscus) is uaually later than the others mentioned.
According to GULLS adult barabensis moults 1-2 months later than cachinnans, 1 months earlier than heuglini and Baltic fuscus.
Variability in moult as in plumage characters, primary pattern and so on should always be taken in consideration.

Also have a look at this:

http://www.gull-research.org/heuglini-id/index.html

JanJ

"on thin ice" (by c.mihai)

michahellis.

JanJ

another

And this one

Hi Howard

Suggestion heuglini. Dark markings around and line behind the eye eye (angry look).
The grey tone seems darker than barabensis, less contrast between blackish primaries.
Lack of white mirror on p10, which perhaps are not really fully growns, small one on the underside of p10, in the closest wing, lack of white-tipped outer primaries together with bill pattern, brownish inner and blackish outer primary coverts, some brownish second
(?) generation secondaries and pattern of inner primaries and underwing suggest a 2nd winter (3cy) bird. Seemingly all white tail perhaps advanced for this age class, or perhaps less advanced 3cy bird. However perhaps 2cy bird with advanced tail is better anyway.

JanJ

Seen on Gallikos River!
Is it a Black-headed or Mediterranean?

a first winter ridibundus - how did that happen, could you get clues?

lou salomon said:

a first winter ridibundus - how did that happen, could you get clues?

Click to expand...

I don't know.I found it so! Maybe flying the whole flock, this one hang itself. At Gallikos estuaries there are many ridibubdus.

an easy one

leggins

Dolphin Gull.

JanJ

isn't it a beauty!
http://ontfin.com/Birds/displayimage.php?album=423&pos=5

i know i repeat myself in this respect. but this is the only pic of a presumed hybrid cachinnans x michahellis, ringed in poland, seen in chioggia (haven't found the website again so i post the pic itself).
do you know of any other pics of presumed hybrids? (well, there is one on ruud's site i know: http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/cachinnans2m.html)

Back ends of which two?

Hello Gentoo!

Obviously a first cycle Western top bird and a Herring Gull same age, note the rounded tips on the inner priamaries, which might suggest second generation primaries and therefore an older bird than it really is, Looking at the tertials and coverts - all first generation.

JanJ

ok I need to get a little better at this quiz thing lol.