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Kowa or Meopta? (1 Viewer)

M

Martin Fagg

Guest
Hi everyone,

I am thinking of getting a full size bin to complement my Meopta 8x32s. I was thinking of the Meopta 8x42s. I did wonder about the 7x Meoptas but I decided that I don't want to lose mag, so then I thought well why don't go up in mag instead, as I've already got 8x.

So having done some more research, I am now looking at the Kowa Genesis XD 8.5x44. I have read Holger Merlitzs review and everything I can find on here but there is little else to read about them (and not that much here on BF compared to many bins). What I have read is mostly good apart from weight and narrow fov, both of which I feel I can live with. They sound like they arenearly up there with the best but can be had for £700 instead of £1200-1400. Very important as I am a skinflint miser!

Has anyone got any experience with these bins since they were last discussed on here?

If I try the Kowas and like them, I may even trade my 8x32 Meoptas for some 8x32 SEs. I reckon that the Kowas and the SEs sound like a great combination. A small light porro for good weather and a big heavy (i.e. steady in the hand) roof for wet, windy weather.

So, my post in brief is:

Has anyone got anything to add to what's already been posted here about the Kowa Genesis 8.5x44?

Best wishes
Martin
 
Yes, again the big Kowa is HEAVY. As much as I wanted to like them, this is not a bin I would want to carry around all day when there are much lighter alternatives, no matter the price.

And frankly I don't think a 8.5x44 complements a 8x32 at all. They will give you the exact same view for all practical purposes. If they don't offer different utility, one eventually starts collecting dust. Of course, if you are a collector.....

A complementary bino should offer a VERY different magnification or feature set IMO. I would look at the Canon IS series 12x and up or a shirt pocket sized bino like the Nikon Micron.
 
In a recent test of 10x42s in a German birding magazine, the 10,5x44 Kowa Prominar had the lowest CA of all contestants but the worst transmission.
Between 500 nm and 630 nm the transmission was above 80%, with a best value of about 83%, but had fallen to 60% at 410 nm and 720 nm.
A Leica Ultravid HD, for example, was 10% better at these wavelengths and achieved a maximum of 90%.

John
 
RJM said:
Yes, again the big Kowa is HEAVY. As much as I wanted to like them, this is not a bin I would want to carry around all day when there are much lighter alternatives, no matter the price.

And frankly I don't think a 8.5x44 complements a 8x32 at all. They will give you the exact same view for all practical purposes. If they don't offer different utility, one eventually starts collecting dust. Of course, if you are a collector.....

A complementary bino should offer a VERY different magnification or feature set IMO. I would look at the Canon IS series 12x and up or a shirt pocket sized bino like the Nikon Micron.
Click to expand...

Hi Rick,

I have been using 900g porros for some time with a harness so the weight doesn't bother me. I fact, until recently I paid great deal heed to the weight of binoculars (a habit of reducing weight acquired as a backpacker on long distance footpaths). But I have decided that it is possible for bins to be too light. I find a bit of heft makes bins much easier to hold steady, especially when buffeted by winds.

So what I was thinking by bins complementing each other was that a heavy 40ish mm bin in the winter for steady heft and extra light gathering on gloomy days when it seems like dusk all day long (and the extra half of mag would improve twighlight factor a tad) and lighter bins in summer when it is brighter and less windy or for when I will be walking far.

I understand how more mag or even smaller bins are complementary to what I have but that's not what I am after. But thanks for the suggestions.

How do you rate the Kowas optically? I keep reading about rolling ball. Did you think it was a big deal? I have only noticed on one binocular myself (slight seasick feeling and headaches after extended use) but I haven't tried loads and loads so maybe I just haven't fully discovered it.

They seem like such a bargain at the knockdown price they can be had for compared to their RRP. But they must be cheap because they haven't sold well. So the worry is, they're unpopular because they're flawed. Or is the only flaw the weight? You see my quandary, I expect.

Perhaps I should just order them, try them out for a week and tell you all what I think of them!

Best wishes
Martin
 
Martin Fagg said:
So what I was thinking by bins complementing each other was that a heavy 40ish mm bin in the winter for steady heft and extra light gathering on gloomy days when it seems like dusk all day long (and the extra half of mag would improve twighlight factor a tad) .....
Click to expand...

Martin, I think you underestimate the "power" of magnification with respect to low light performance. The size of the exit pupil it not that relevant until you get into a fully dark/zero ambient light scenario. The Canon 12x36IS actually has a slightly HIGHER twilight factor than the Kowa 8.5x44mm. When I want to SEE/ID something at dusk I will always reach for my 18x50IS if handy to "drill" through the darkness.

How do you rate the Kowas optically? I keep reading about rolling ball. Did you think it was a big deal? .....
Click to expand...

The only bin I have ever seen rolling ball in was when demo-ing the Swarovision last Xmas. I don't think it would be an issue in a typical birding environment. The big Kowa's never impressed me like the smaller Genesis 8x33 does.

Still, by the end of 2009 I had $$$ buring a hole in my pocket and was set to buy 2 pair of SVs but fortunately took a punt on the $200 Bushnell Legend Ultra HD at the last moment. They far exceeded my expectations and left little to be desired by me in a binocular so I took the US$6k I set aside for them and blew it on a new Nikon D300s and 300mm f/2.8 VR lens instead! I even sold my Nikon 8x30II, Swift 8.5x44ED and and Kowa BD8x32 shortly afterwards as the Legends made them redundant, they are that good.

Now I only have the Canon 18x50IS, Nikon 10x35EII (primarily for whale & starwatching trips to Hawaii), two Bushnell 8x42 Legend Ultra HD (main goto bino birding and general use), and the cigarette pack-like Canon 5x17 and Pentax 8x18 for concerts/museums/urban touring. All complement each other with very different viewing experiences and so I think my bino wunderlust is now satiated.:king:

cheers,
Rick
 
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Hi again, Martin!

Now that I got my hands on the Vortex Fury 6,5x32 (see the Nikon Action EX 7x35 vs. Zen Ray 7x36 ED2 thread)
...I consider a new 10x or 10,5x. The Kowa Prominar is very solid. However, I read some comments about the fact that it does not perform as well as expected, considering the features.
If this is true, the RRP is ridiculously high. It should almost match the Victory FL's for that price tag.
I have read that the prisms are not dielectric, not even silver coated, but aluminium coated. This might be the explanation to its low transmission.
Another flaw is their huge eye-cups. Many people with smaller IPD just can't adjust the tubes to their IPD because the eye-cups will be too tight on the eyebrows/nose.

Many 8x42 bins have a quite narrow FOV compared to 8x32's, but on the other hand they usually have a longer eye-relief.
It seems that two of the very best 8x42 are the Vortex Razor and the Meostar.

I have said it before, keep your Meostar 8x32 because it is a very, very fine binocular. (Probably better than my Minox HG 8x33.)
And get a 10x43ish high-transmission bin, or even a 10x50 like the Razor if you like the heft. The latter one is possibly the best value in a 10x50 that you can find.

Kind regards

L
 
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RJM said:
A complementary bino should offer a VERY different magnification or feature set IMO. I would look at the Canon IS series 12x and up or a shirt pocket sized bino like the Nikon Micron.
Click to expand...

I actually own a 6x15 Mikron, and the image is astounding - very sharp, not too narrow, not too much glare. In fact I disassembled it for a prism cleaning the other day, and it is even better now.
But you could never make me say it is an appropriate birding binocular. The ergonomics are very poor. It is simply too small to handle, and the tiny central focus ring is very embarrasing. Individually focusing eyepieces would have made things easier here.
 
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Kowa has used dieletric prism coatings in ALL their optics under their "C³" moniker for some years now. In fact, believe they were first to market with the process.
 
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http://kowa-usa.com/frontend/proddetail.asp?pn=GENESIS%2044%2010.5x44&co=10000370,10000391

"Phase Coating on the Roof Prism
The prism has phase correction coating and a highly reflective aluminum coating to ensure sharp images and accurate color reproduction. Through the use of a Bak4 prism Kowa is able to give you bright, clear images all the way to the edge of the objective lens"

Yes, when I read more thoroughly I can also see that they mention their dielectric coating. So, what is this aluminium thing?
 
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From Kowa's webpage again:

"Kowa's roof prism binoculars use the schmidt-Pechan prism. One surface of the Pechan prism does not provide total reflection, so we have applied a highly reflective multi-coating of dielectrics (C3 Coating). This allows for a much higher reflectivity than with coatings of silver or optically-enhanced aluminum, offering a reflectance of 99% or higher across the entire visible spectrum (400 to 700mm). Not only does this provide bright and sharp images, but accurate color reproduction is also achieved."

The test results seem to oppose Kowa's claims.
 
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I always take advertising supported magazine test results with a teaspoon of skepticism. A similar report of low transmission was made about their fieldscopes in this forum earlier this year. A few of us amateur optics "analysts" here felt the testing methodology might be in error.
 
At the end of the day it's personal preferences that decide which binocular are the best for you. Ergonomics and configuration are way more important than tiny differences in edge sharpness. For me, a larger FOV/AFOV that still could be easily viewed with spectacles is a key feature.
I agree that a 8x4x does not really add much if there is already a 8x32.
But to answer Martin's question, the Meopta 8x42 would be my choice over the Kowa because of the Meopta's wider FOV.
 
Thanks for your input everybody. I think the 8x42 Meoptas are the way forward. Although I really like the view through them, the 8x32s are just too lightweight. I have grown to like bins with a bit of size and heft.

Watch out though, in a few months I'll probably be asking you all for advice on smaller bins again :)

Best wishes
Martin
 
RJM said:
I always take advertising supported magazine test results with a teaspoon of skepticism. A similar report of low transmission was made about their fieldscopes in this forum earlier this year. A few of us amateur optics "analysts" here felt the testing methodology might be in error.
Click to expand...

The magazine published transmission curves.
I cannot vouch for their accuracy but it at least indicates a desire for objectivity and the results would tend to confirm the suspicion of aluminium coatings on the prisms of the Kowa Prominar.
The Kowa marketing people contradict themselves and probably don't know the difference between dielectric and aluminium coatings.

John
 
Martin,

Just a word of warning. The 8x42 Meoptas are physically identical to the 10x42s that you mentioned not liking the ergonomics for. The optics are very similar to the 8x32s overall with just a bit more color bias....(though the last pair I owned seemed more color neutral than the earlier ones).

Since we are on the topic of Meopta though, did anyone try their new low priced model? I had an offer to try one out but at the time...optics weren't close to being one of my priorities.
 
FrankD said:
Since we are on the topic of Meopta though, did anyone try their new low priced model? I had an offer to try one out but at the time...optics weren't close to being one of my priorities.
Click to expand...

I said in the other thread, I can bet the Vortex Fury 6,5x32 is identical to the Meopro of the same configuration. The latter are claimed to be assembled in the U.S., and perhaps the coatings differ. But the specs and "style" look very similar.
The Meopro's are not available in Europe.

And yes, I am very content with the Fury.
 
FrankD said:
Martin,

Just a word of warning. The 8x42 Meoptas are physically identical to the 10x42s that you mentioned not liking the ergonomics for. The optics are very similar to the 8x32s overall with just a bit more color bias....(though the last pair I owned seemed more color neutral than the earlier ones).

Since we are on the topic of Meopta though, did anyone try their new low priced model? I had an offer to try one out but at the time...optics weren't close to being one of my priorities.
Click to expand...

Good to see you again Frank. What was your take on the Kowa Prominar bino? What would you compare it to in the $1000 class of glass?
 
jgraider said:
Good to see you again Frank. What was your take on the Kowa Prominar bino? What would you compare it to in the $1000 class of glass?
Click to expand...

JG,

I only have had one opportunity to look at the Prominar bin. It was at an optics day at a local birdwatching event about a year ago. The experience was brief but I do remember the clarity of the image....CA free with very good brightness and color representation. Beyond that I can say little of the experience. I am sure it is an excellent bin as I really haven't tried something that was Kowa that I wasn't impressed with.

On the other hand, there are so many excellent bins out there right now below the price point that the Kowa sells at that I would be hard pressed to choose it.
 
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