Dreadful customer service (1 Viewer)

Hermann said:

If the Trinovid is anywhere near as tough as the old Trinovids, I don't think you'll ever have to send it in. On every twitch over here you still see quite a few old Trinovids, usually 10x42BAs/BNs, many of them close to 20 years old. Some of these are used by professional birders day in and day out at the coast which basically means the get regular soakings in saltwater. Most other binoculars that old have long been retired, but the Trinovids seem to be still going strong.

In all those years I've only seen one Trinovid that had a problem - a screw had worked loose inside. That was repaired under warranty, of course.

So I wouldn't really worry too much about your Trinovids.

Hermann

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Hermann, you are absolutely correct. I also believe that the older Trinovid model was a better product.

In fact, I was so impressed with the Trinovids when I saw them being used by birders years ago, that I decided to buy Leica on the strength of that. Unfortunately, the Ultravids, while perhaps stronger on the seals and other fronts, is not as good overall as its predecessor. I remember a birder acquaintance of mine who owned a Trinovids used to rough them so much that they appeared indestructible !. Truly water proof and very tough and well protected against scratching.

Alas, the Ultravids ain't like that. I have found them to be very susceptible to fogging (in both colder climates as well as hotter tropical ones) that they almost become unusable under such conditions. Also, their objective lenses are extremely "touchy" and scratch easily. Even using the Leica-supplied cleaning cloth appears to scratch the objective lenses to some extent.

Looking back, I feel that I fell for the classic "newer model" syndrome and I am sorry that I didn't buy Trinovids instead, but I suppose it's easy to say that in hindsight.

spiralcoil said:

People often have their emotion rather than carefully recognized facts into their comments; as well people expecting everything is free and treated like "King/Queen"... but in reality, no binocular company can do that.

Leica is just as reliable if not better, and as good in custom services as the other "well known" ones, in my experience. Leica made mistakes too, but correct they as they could.

Leica not only makes great quality cameras/lenses which famous for, but also make great sport optics. Many do prefer Leica's bino designs more so than the other ones on the market. Leica does make great binoculars.

Those beautiful profound classical music masters were not necessary being mentioned by daily people often, but it does not mean those great masters are any less good than today's shallow and loud musics.

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Well,....not sure if it quite made me feel like I was being treated like a King,....but it came pretty close upon recieving back my SECOND PAIR of Zeiss Oberkochen Poro's from the 1960's from the US Service Center over the last several months.

I had sent back the 1st pair several months ago for an internal cleaning of the fogged optics,......not surprising the lubricant's gasing had coated the prisms and lenses over the last 50 years or more. This pair was returned in about ONE WEEK, having been cleaned and relubricated, and all at NO CHARGE! I had made it quite clear I had bought these 8x30B Oberkochen poros on the used market!

The 2nd pair, this time a Zeiss 8x30 Oberkochen poro with the more useful wider FOV, (a recent ebay purchase listed as having clean optics but HAD internal gassing) was quicky returned in about 8 days after a similar cleaning and relubrication,.....and as before at NO CHARGE whatsoever to me,....the buyer of a used instrument!

The Zeiss service center has also supplied me with 2 sets of replacement eyecups, (also at NO CHARGE), for a couple of older Zeiss 8x30B Dialyt roofs. These were also decades old and acquired on the used market, yet Zeiss took care of me beyond what anyone could expect to be "reasonable".

.....compare THAT to getting charged a "discounted to $75.00" by the US service center for Leica (listed at near $100.00), for a replacement Leica neck strap! I was forced to go that route because of needing the special post type connector on the original Leitz Trinovids, and the service center advised me you could NOT buy just the smaller connector ends. I have since learned to use the old leather straps, and replace the dried out leather part and re-rivit the connection back. All for about $7 in parts plus my labor.

Now I ask you,.....were I ever in the market for a brand spanking new binocular, who do you think i'm going to go with?

No brainer,....Zeiss! ZEISS, ZEISS !!!

Frankly,.....I wish to ammend my previous comments,....I DO feel a bit like being treated like a King! :king:

joejeweler said:

I had sent back the 1st pair several months ago for an internal cleaning of the fogged optics,......not surprising the lubricant's gasing had coated the prisms and lenses over the last 50 years or more. This pair was returned in about ONE WEEK, having been cleaned and relubricated, and all at NO CHARGE! I had made it quite clear I had bought these 8x30B Oberkochen poros on the used market!

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Well, that's great for you. Makes me feel just slightly less great about my own experience though. I did pretty much the same as you a few years back (send in my grandfathers Zeiss Dialyt 8x30B to change eyecups, they also did some adjustments and greasing) but was charged about 150 € if I remember well. I felt that was ok, but I don't really like the different standards being applied... I rather prefer Leica that charges everyone the same

I have a pair of 8x50 BA's never had a problem with them thank god. Sale them and look at Swarovski or Zeiss they have much better customer service

Mike

dalat said:

Well, that's great for you. Makes me feel just slightly less great about my own experience though. I did pretty much the same as you a few years back (send in my grandfathers Zeiss Dialyt 8x30B to change eyecups, they also did some adjustments and greasing) but was charged about 150 € if I remember well. I felt that was ok, but I don't really like the different standards being applied... I rather prefer Leica that charges everyone the same

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Yeah,....even trying to charge for the warrantee covered repairs! And $75 for a neck strap! (discounted no less) Come on..........

I would agree that the Customer Service should be consistant across the board, and from Country to Country. But I recognize there may be some variation as you're STILL dealing with humans and differing personalities.

But I think Zeiss CS has proven MUCH MORE than Leica to try to bend over backwards in CS. There are just SO MANY Leica complaints for problems getting COVERED Warrantee work done, that i would never consider them on a new purchase. Getting service on 50+ year old binos,....more than once at NO CHARGE,.....when no free service could reasonable be expected,......well,....THAT'S the company i'll go with when i'm looking at "New"!

I'm not alone! It is costing Leica big time in loyalty returns. (or lack thereof)

Get burned trying to get a covered problem handled, you won't be back,....Simple!

joejeweler said:

Well,....not sure if it quite made me feel like I was being treated like a King,....but it came pretty close upon recieving back my SECOND PAIR of Zeiss Oberkochen Poro's from the 1960's from the US Service Center over the last several months.

I had sent back the 1st pair several months ago for an internal cleaning of the fogged optics,......not surprising the lubricant's gasing had coated the prisms and lenses over the last 50 years or more. This pair was returned in about ONE WEEK, having been cleaned and relubricated, and all at NO CHARGE! I had made it quite clear I had bought these 8x30B Oberkochen poros on the used market!

The 2nd pair, this time a Zeiss 8x30 Oberkochen poro with the more useful wider FOV, (a recent ebay purchase listed as having clean optics but HAD internal gassing) was quicky returned in about 8 days after a similar cleaning and relubrication,.....and as before at NO CHARGE whatsoever to me,....the buyer of a used instrument!

The Zeiss service center has also supplied me with 2 sets of replacement eyecups, (also at NO CHARGE), for a couple of older Zeiss 8x30B Dialyt roofs. These were also decades old and acquired on the used market, yet Zeiss took care of me beyond what anyone could expect to be "reasonable".

.....compare THAT to getting charged a "discounted to $75.00" by the US service center for Leica (listed at near $100.00), for a replacement Leica neck strap! I was forced to go that route because of needing the special post type connector on the original Leitz Trinovids, and the service center advised me you could NOT buy just the smaller connector ends. I have since learned to use the old leather straps, and replace the dried out leather part and re-rivit the connection back. All for about $7 in parts plus my labor.

Now I ask you,.....were I ever in the market for a brand spanking new binocular, who do you think i'm going to go with?

No brainer,....Zeiss! ZEISS, ZEISS !!!

Frankly,.....I wish to ammend my previous comments,....I DO feel a bit like being treated like a King! :king:

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Porros that age, especially Zeiss porros, might be better optically than your Leitz 7x35B Trinovid which you discuss in this contemporary thread:

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2912321&postcount=14.

Especially so if they are in the same age bracket. And in all likelihood, no matter how old they are, porros will also be much easier to work on than roof prisms so there is a labor factor that would have an affect on any repair costs.

I have a 7x42 Trinovid BA (green armored) which I purchased in the early 1990s at a 50% off closeout price when Leica discontinued the Leitz Trinovid line. A few years ago I was able to get original equipment replacement rubber fold down eye cups for it from Leica. I paid $50.00 total for the two of them but they are unit construction screw on type eye cups. I have no problem at all with them charging me that amount of money for a new replacement item on a binocular they discontinued about 22 years ago.

I also inquired about having them cleaned and realigned if necessary. They gave me a high figure to do this and advised me that it might not be possible to get replacement parts for them if they were needed.

As you probably know, these Leitz Trinovids used the now defunct Uppendahl roof prisms which were used in very few other Roof Prisms.

Bob

ceasar said:

Porros that age, especially Zeiss porros, might be better optically than your Leitz 7x35B Trinovid which you discuss in this contemporary thread:

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=2912321&postcount=14.

Especially so if they are in the same age bracket. And in all likelihood, no matter how old they are, porros will also be much easier to work on than roof prisms so there is a labor factor that would have an affect on any repair costs.

I have a 7x42 Trinovid BA (green armored) which I purchased in the early 1990s at a 50% off closeout price when Leica discontinued the Leitz Trinovid line. A few years ago I was able to get original equipment replacement rubber fold down eye cups for it from Leica. I paid $50.00 total for the two of them but they are unit construction screw on type eye cups. I have no problem at all with them charging me that amount of money for a new replacement item on a binocular they discontinued about 22 years ago.

I also inquired about having them cleaned and realigned if necessary. They gave me a high figure to do this and advised me that it might not be possible to get replacement parts for them if they were needed.

As you probably know, these Leitz Trinovids used the now defunct Uppendahl roof prisms which were used in very few other Roof Prisms.

Bob

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Hi Bob,....I actually think my set of Nippon Kogaku 7x35 poros are cherry,....as I can find no complaints even out to the far edges. Simply amazing view for an early single coated poro. I use them daily in front of my window watching the 7 or 8 squirrels I feed, along with an assortment of Blue Jays and other birds. The Blue Jays swallow shelled peanuts like they are chiclets! lol

Quite a sight to see,....as are the squirrels standing guard over their bowl of nuts and chasing off anyone else coming close! The GREEDY SOB's 3

The Leitz 7x35B Trinovids, as much as I do like them, DO have edges fall off in sharpness, and it's noticable "if" you're looking for it. Normally I accept them as they are,....a nice glass for the time period they were produced.

In use in the field they are still an enjoyable instrument to carry and use,.....although I don't go out in wet weather just to be safe. But you're right, the early porros (both Zeiss Oberkochen 8x30 and Nippon Kogaku/Nikon 7x35),......ARE better optically in the ultimate sense. The Leitz 7x35B Trinovids win out in slimness and ergonomics, however, and are a nice woods glass.

BTW,....on TWO separate occasions Zeiss supplied me at no charge a set of replacement eyecups, also of unit construction consisting of an aluminum threading with a foldable outer rubber covering. These for a pair of 1960's era 8x30B Dialyt, and also a Zeiss 7x42B/GAT*P* version.

No way should I have expected "no charge" as I was not the original owner, and of course the age alone makes this examplary service!

Zeiss is Nice!

I'm new on the forum, but not to the issues of customer service. If you're in the US, I can say unequivocally that we have been working hard on making our customer service as efficient and reliable as possible. Realize that it takes an engineer to properly diagnose and repair a binocular or spotting scope and we are a small company compared to our competition. That said I firmly believe we produce a superior product, which is why I used my 8x42 BN for 15 years as a field ornithologist before coming to work for Leica. I still use it, after many years of abuse. If you've got an issue with Leica USA customer service, please feel free to contact me directly: david 'AT' leicasportoptics.com. For those having issues in the UK and Australia, best to contact Germany directly. For those with unanswered requests at Birdfair, remember how busy it was at the time and simply contact Germany, they will take care of you.

Cheers

David

Woodcreeper, since you made an appearance on a public forum (glad you did), I would like to take the opportunity to ask you a question if you don't mind. Why don't you address the stance Leica has taken on the US warranty they offer. You guys are the only premium optic company that does not offer a lifetime transferrable warranty. There are even Chinese companies that do. It is a real shame given the quality products that you offer. Can you enlighten us on this company policy please, specifically the reasoning behind it? Thank you for your time.

jgraider- sure, I can try and reply quickly before heading out to find my year tufted duck (rough life of the product specialist, I know ).

We offer a lifetime warranty against manufacturer defects on new scopes and binoculars in the USA (I think it's either 10 or 30 years in Germany, but don't quote me on that). We offer a 3-year no-fault guarantee on scopes and binoculars (non-Geovid because of the electronics), both of these are in writing (what does Swaro and Zeiss put in writing?). A no-fault guarantee is a bit crazy if you think of it- I mean what other industry offers no-fault guarantees on expensive (to produce and to purchase) products? not your car, not your computer, not you iPhone, etc. So, we're essentially saying go ahead and beat it up, and within the first three years we'll either replace or repair it for nothing. For a 10-year period we offered the no-fault Passport Guarantee for LIFE! Drop in on the concrete? no questions. Run it over with your car, no questions. It adds up quick! I can tell you that the annual repair costs for us are in the millions because we're assuming the cost of all repairs on binoculars and scopes that are almost twenty years old, not including all of the 20,30,40, and 50 year old binoculars that we assume partial cost on to provide "reasonable and customary" repairs to.

So, if we wanted to continue this policy of unlimited no-fault, we'd have to do something to make up the cost. What are the options? Outsource our production to Asia...why not? all of our competitors do it! But Leica, at its core, is a group of German engineers producing the best possible product with the most advanced technology and refuses to go that route. So, we reduced our no-fault guarantee and continue to offer a lifetime warranty against manufacturing defects. But what about wear and tear after, say, 10-30 years? Should that be free also? As a Leica user before an employee, I would say NO, I don't think so. Things eventually wear out, seals go, armor gets worn, etc. etc. etc. What I can guarantee is that Leica will repair or replace your damaged product for a reasonable and customary fee if you are indeed out of warranty, and for free if you are within it and the damage is due to manufacturer issues, or for free and with no questions asked if you are within the passport protection period.

I hope that helps clear it up, and I'm more than happy to discuss this further. In the meantime, I'm about to go focus my 7x42 Ultravid HDs on a duck with a tuft!

Cheers

David

Very good David. I was just wondering why and how Zeiss and Swaro provide a lifetime transferrable warranty and Leica, the other leg of the "big3", does not. It seems as though it puts you in a competitive disadvantage? Thanks very much for clarifying.

Woodcreeper said:

jgraider- sure, I can try and reply quickly before heading out to find my year tufted duck (rough life of the product specialist, I know ).

.....

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David,

Thank you for your explanation. I would appreciate your advice regarding Leica's warranty policies in the continent. It is my understanding that in the Uk the warranty follows the binoculars, therefore, transferable to the new owner. Kindly opine, and if true, please elaborate on the reasons for not following the same practice here in the US.

Once more, thank you very much. Regards.

jgraider said:

Very good David. I was just wondering why and how Zeiss and Swaro provide a lifetime transferrable warranty and Leica, the other leg of the "big3", does not. It seems as though it puts you in a competitive disadvantage? Thanks very much for clarifying.

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Can you send me the written language that suggests Zeiss and Swarovski have lifetime transferrable warranties? and that these are no-fault? AFAIK we have the most comprehensive WRITTEN warranty. The point here is that we have the most product out there that is 1) of exceptional quality and 2) multiple decades old. How many 20-50 year old Zeiss do you see in the field? with the exception of the classic Zeiss Dialyt, not many. How many 20-50 year old Swarovski? none. As products from these and other brands begin to age, I guarantee you will see more changes to warranties. Believe me, the days of no-fault guarantees are coming to an end in the high-quality market. In the low-quality market, maybe not- but that's because of the exceptional markup on each product that allows for "unlimited refills".

In the end we need to be doing a better job communicating these realities to our customers. We work very hard to build relationships with our customers, and we in the sports optics department know how important it is to have quality you can depend on coupled with strong customer service. I can say from personal experience that we are working very hard to "close the loop" in order to provide the best optics AND support to our users. I very much appreciate your feedback on this and as I said before, please don't hesitate to contact me if you feel you are running into customer service issues: [email protected].

Good Birding!

David

ibramr said:

David,

Thank you for your explanation. I would appreciate your advice regarding Leica's warranty policies in the continent. It is my understanding that in the Uk the warranty follows the binoculars, therefore, transferable to the new owner. Kindly opine, and if true, please elaborate on the reasons for not following the same practice here in the US.

Once more, thank you very much. Regards.

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Ibramr:

I have contacted Leica Camera AG (Germany) and requested that they send me the wording on the warranty over there. For the most part Germany has been more conservative when it comes to warranties in so far as they usually limit them to shorter periods and only to manufacturing defects. I will be sure to get back to you as soon as I know more.

Cheers

David

David,
Thanks so much for popping in. To my knowledge this is a first for Leica.

Many of us here have several binoculars, and like to save money by buying used. Of course the Leica warranty is not transferrable, so we take our chances.

But while the Zeiss warranty is transferable, I believe the Swaro is not, at least not "in writing", unless it has changed very recently.

I still like the BA/BN too.

Ron

ronh said:

David,
Thanks so much for popping in. To my knowledge this is a first for Leica.

Many of us here have several binoculars, and like to save money by buying used. Of course the Leica warranty is not transferrable, so we take our chances.

But while the Zeiss warranty is transferable, I believe the Swaro is not, at least not "in writing", unless it has changed very recently.

I still like the BA/BN too.

Ron

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Ron- I hear you, and thanks for commenting. I was doing a BGBY (Big Green Birding Year) last year on my bicycle and took a pretty hard fall on a gritty street corner just after snowmelt. I slammed into the ground, my BNs on my chest, knee and shoulder as well straight into the pavement. After a few moments of shock, realizing I hadn't killed myself, I crawled up to my feet. I was worried the BNs would be damaged, as my shoulder and knee would take weeks to eventually recover. As for the binocular, though, I simply dusted it off and it focused again like new. No alignment issues, just pure great Leica views. I was impressed, even after having trashed them for over eight years doing field work on the Cape Sable seaside sparrow in the Everglades, a place that eats gear on a regular basis.

As far as taking your chances with used gear, my suggestion is to make the sale conditional on the seller sending it in to us for a refreshing and checkup. That way you at least start with a clean slate after an authorized Leica repair engineer has taken a good look at it. After that, as I said, Leica will repair any damages for a reasonable and customary fee. No one at Leica wants to gouge you for fixing binoculars; they simply need to keep the repair department functioning within a tight budget.

Thanks again for your comment.

Cheers

David

Not being argumentative wood, and thanks again for your comments. Zeiss and Meopta both have written lifetime transferrable warranties, and Swarovski is legendary for taking care of it's customers whether you buy it first hand, preowned, or whatever. That is inarguable. I visited with the Leica crew at DSC in Dallas this January and they all acknowledged this shortcoming from Leica, blaming it on policies coming from German powers that be. Do you know if Leica is gaining, losing, or just maintaining market share because of this lack of competitive warranty? The worst thing that could happen for the consumer is for Leica to keep it's head stuck in the sand on this policy.

David,

One of the burning Leica questions for the optogeeks on this forum is what's next for the Perger prism? Any information you can share?

Henry

Woodcreeper,

Thanks for your refreshing comments!
In post 30 you mention that all of leica's competitors (IMHO that would be Zeiss, Swarovski and Meopta) outsource production to Asia. Could you be more specific in this matter?
It is no secret that Zeiss outsources production to Asia, but I haven't so far heard this from the other two.

It may be so, that leica has the most comprehensive WRITTEN warranty of all four, but in reality Leica is at the end of the line up in this matter.
The change in warranty in Europe (going from 25-30 years to 10 years) was needed because the new EU regulations forced Leica, Zeiss and Swarovski to do so. AFAIK this had nothing to do with the aging of their products.
Personally I would love to see that leica put their service and guarantee level on the same high level as Zeiss and Swarovski since ages do.

Jan

henry link said:

David,

One of the burning Leica questions for the optogeeks on this forum is what's next for the Perger prism? Any information you can share?

Henry

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Yes indeed! :t: And not necessarily full-fledged geeks either.

Bob