Best super zoom camera for bird shots? (1 Viewer)

Speed Turtle · Apr 21, 2009

I'm in the process of trying to find a super zoom digital camera that's suitable for taking photographs of wild birds. Here is some of the criteria that I'm using:

At least 18x zoom
Good image sharpness whether zoomed all the way in/out
Low barrel distortion
Low chromatic aberration
HD video (at least 720p)
Good electronic viewfinder

The models that I'm considering along with the latest prices in US dollars and the respective zoom factors are:

Canon PowerShot SX1 IS (20x) - $599.95
Panasonic DMC-FZ28 (18x) - $259.95
Kodak EasyShare Z980 (24x) - $380.85
Pentax X70 (24x) - $349.00
Olympus SP-590UZ (26x) - $449.00
Nikon Coolpix P90 (24x) - $378.77
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-HX1 (20x) - $447.76

I can't seem to find very much information on the Pentax and Kodak models so I'm inclined to go with one of the other five choices. Any help someone could give me would be greatly appreciated. My plan is to try to purchase a camera sometime within the next month. I've read a lot of reviews but I'm still confused as to what the best choice would be.

Thanks in advance,
Scott

RJM · Apr 21, 2009

I have the Canon SX1 and am thrilled with its still and video performance. I have done some hands-on comparison with most of the models on your list, ex Kodak. The Pentax, Olympus, and Nikon all suck so you can scratch them.

The Panasonic FX28 is due for a refresh and so much cheaper now making it an excellent value if you mainly will do snapshots. But for video, the Canon SX1 has too many important benefits including 1080p Full HD rez, an articulating LCD, very good stereo sound, silent zoom motor, a cool 2x digital TC with NO LOSS of image quality, 2x longer recording times, dedicated video button, etc., that puts it several steps ahead of the FZ28.

The Sony has not made it to stores yet but I did briefly look at it a few weeks ago at the TokyoPhotoExpo. It shares many of the same benefits of the SX1, with a tilt screen, full 1080p video, and CMOS sensor, fast continuous shooting speeds, etc. But nothing I saw exceeds the SX1 features and the Sony lens is SIGNIFICANTLY slower at F8 on telephoto vs F5.7 for the Canon. This will make a BIG difference in still shooting wildlife as you will be almost always at max zoom.

hope this helps,
Rick

njlarsen · Apr 21, 2009

If you have a well assorted shop somewhere close, go in and try the different ones out. I would look for:
1 ability to choose a really small area to focus on in the viewfinder
2 speed of focusing; testing inside the shop in semi-dim conditions might be just right.
3 Fit in your hands, how well you see the viewfinder, etc.

I think there was a thread recently blaiming the nikon for slow focus. I have the FZ18 (an earlier version of the panasonic) which I am happy with.

Niels

Speed Turtle · Apr 24, 2009

Thank you for your help. After careful consideration, I'm tentatively considering buying the Panasonic FZ28 the reason being that it will do most of what I want to plus the price is right. If money were no object, I'd say that it's a toss up between the Canon and Sony models. Another thing that helped to sway my decision towards the Panasonic is the fact that you can slap a 1.7X teleconverter on it which would bring the magnification up to a max of 30.6x (826mm). Don't know that I'll ever need that much magnification but it's nice to know that lens is an option for me. The cost for the 1.7x tcon is $160. Cheapest that I've seen the FZ28 go for is $265. $265 + $160 = $425 which is $175 less than the Canon SX1. To my knowledge, you can't get a tcon for the SX1 because there isn't any threading on the lens barrel. As far as capabilities go, the SX1 has 1080p (1920x1080) HD which is better than the FZ28 720p (1280x720). I'm not sure if that's a big deal really because I've seen 720p videos on YouTube that were shot using the FZ28 the quality of which are quite good. It seems to me that the Canon/Sony is priced too high. Build quality is really good with the Canon which probably helps to explain its high price. My mom has a Canon PowerShot which is a really well built camera (nothing cheap looking about it). It's 7.1 megapixels with a 4x zoom. Takes really great photos. I tried to take some bird photos with that camera but I didn't have much luck because I was unable to get close enough to the subject matter. For example, last year I took a photo of a Blue Heron at maximum zoom. Nice background shot but you could just barely see the bird. What I want is a camera where I can get super close from a long distance away. --Scott

Cactusdave · Apr 24, 2009

Do look at the FZ28/FZ18 threads on the Panasonic section of this forum. You will get a very fair idea of what the cameras are capable of, with links to many example photographs.

rezMole · Apr 24, 2009

Don't forget that an 18x zoom lens IS NOT an 18x magnification. A 15mm-300mm lens is a 20x zoom whereas a 200-500mm lens is only a 2.5x zoom, but the latter will get you closer.

RAH · Apr 24, 2009

Speed Turtle said:
Another thing that helped to sway my decision towards the Panasonic is the fact that you can slap a 1.7X teleconverter on it which would bring the magnification up to a max of 30.6x (826mm). Don't know that I'll ever need that much magnification but it's nice to know that lens is an option for me.

I agree with you. Don't know why Canon eliminated the ability to use teleconverters with their latest superzooms. Big mistake! I have an S5IS, the model before the latest, and use a TCON-17 on it much of the time. Of course, its top magnification level is only about 430mm, which is lower than the latest models, so it evens out somewhat - with the TCON-17 I get about 720mm.

rezMole is right, an 18x zoom is not 18x magnification. That is because all of these lenses start at less than 1 (wide-angle), so the "18x" means the total zoom amount, not the top magnification To determine the approximate magnification amount, divide the top number by 50 (e.g. 600/50 = 12x)

RJM · Apr 24, 2009

Using an optical 1.7x TC puts aperture on the Canon SX10/1 close to F10 at telephoto. Above the diffraction limit for such a small sensor. That is why the camera uses a digital TC since the you can get 2x/2.3x at F5.6. And in HD movie mode on the SX1, there is no loss in quality.

cheers,
Rick

Jim M. · Apr 24, 2009

I am skeptical that there is any digital substitute for actual optical magnification. Companies keep on coming up with various sorts of gimmicks to make people believe manipulating digital sensors can be equivalent to increasing optical magnification by telephoto lenses, etc, but it seems to be smoke and mirrors. I would need to see a lot of support to be convinced otherwise.

And using my FZ18, the addition of the teleconverter does not reduce the available light for photography so far as I can tell, or affect the range of available aperture settings. The Olympus TCON 1.7, by the way, works with a Panasonic superzoom (I know it works for the FZ18, and believe it also works with the FZ28) but it is cheaper than the Panasonic teleconverter.

Best,
Jim

RJM · Apr 24, 2009

J. Moore said:
And using my FZ18, the addition of the teleconverter does not reduce the available light for photography so far as I can tell, or affect the range of available aperture settings.

Well I will leave this to FZ28 owners to sort out, but by any optical standard it should. Afterall, is there not a menu setting to let the camera know the TC is attached? I would think that is so the camera can properly compute the autofocus, IS compensation, and correct exposure based on the new effective focal length. So because the optical telephoto lens is now F4.4 x 1.7TC = ~F8 the camera should naturally use slower shutter speeds to allow more light to reach the sensor for proper exposure.

A digital TC on the otherhand, just uses a cropped portion of the sensor, so as long as resolution is reduced to match the crop size, there will be no loss in quality. I believe the FZ28 does this too.

cheers,
Rick

Jim M. · Apr 24, 2009

RJM said:
A digital TC on the otherhand, just uses a cropped portion of the sensor, so as long as resolution is reduced to match the crop size, there will be no loss in quality. I believe the FZ28 does this too.

Thanks for the comment Rick. The FZ18 has what I believe is a similar feature and is called "extended optical zoom”. Here is a link to a thread I started discussing it, in which most agreed that extended optical zoom added no increase in actual magnification: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=105219

Best,
Jim

RJM · Apr 24, 2009

Yes. Basically, the digital TC is the same as cropping in post-processing. The advantage is it is done in camera in real time and is subject to proper metering and more accurate focus. The advantage over an optical TC is you can get faster shutter speeds if needed.

As for the Canon SX1, it has two different modes. A digital zoom and a 2x/2.3xTC. Digital zoom only kicks in at the end of the optical zoom range. The digital TC however, affects the entire zoom range and is probably best used with video.

The lossless digital zoom can go as high as 80x (fl=2240mm) at 640x480 rez. Good enough for email and web posting. And because the 16:9 HD video is 1920 x 1080 pixels using the digital 2xTC function for 40x also results in no loss of quality. Pretty cool really.

cheers,
Rick

RAH · Apr 25, 2009

RJM said:
I would think that is so the camera can properly compute the autofocus, IS compensation, and correct exposure based on the new effective focal length. So because the optical telephoto lens is now F4.4 x 1.7TC = ~F8 the camera should naturally use slower shutter speeds to allow more light to reach the sensor for proper exposure.

I do not agree with you that the camera needs to know that the TC is attached in order to make a proper exposure.

It is fairly well established that teleconverters that sit in front of the lens do not affect the amount of light reaching the sensor (this is as opposed to DSLR converters that sit behind the lens which do affect the light amount). I believe that Olympus even says this in their literature on the TCON-17.

RJM · Apr 25, 2009

RAH said:
I do not agree with you that the camera needs to know that the TC is attached in order to make a proper exposure.

Care to guess then why the FZ28 has a Rec Menu setting (where exposure, WB, ISO, Color, etc. are set) for confirming if either the TC or Close up lens is attached?

Rick

RAH · Apr 25, 2009

I don't know why the Panasonic has it. The Olympus superzooms do not have it (at least the earlier cameras like the C-750) and my Canon S5 has it, but only so the camera will know better how to set the IS.

It is easy to see this with an actual camera. Set it to say A priority, put it on a tripod, point it at something, and see what exposure you get with and without the converter. With Canon and Olympus superzooms, as well as with my Fuji E900 pont-and-shoot, the exposure remains the same with and without the converter. The camera does not know that the converter is there, so it adjusts to whatever light it is receiving at the time. It doesn't change with or without the converter, so pretty clearly the converter is not affecting the amount of light tha camera is receiving.

RJM · Apr 25, 2009

So you are saying you can take your Canon S5 (set to Auto or Program) and take 3 pics of the same target under identical lighting...one without the TC, one with the TC and TC Menu setting to OFF, and one with TC and TC Menu setting to ON, and all three photos will so show the exact same ISO, Shutter Speed, and F stop values?

With optics there generally no "free lunch" so I think shutter speed should be slower by 1-2 stops to get correct exposure. But if there is no change, that is certainly some feature to have and would deserve much more than just a casual mention in the ads!! I mean an 800mm+ F4.4 lens!? Wow!!!

cheers,
Rick

hollis_f · Apr 26, 2009

RJM said:
With optics there generally no "free lunch"

Well, it's been a long time since I used a T-Con, but I think the extra size of the glass at the front end gathers more light than the lens on its own. At least it did with my Nikon 8800.

RAH · Apr 26, 2009

RJM said:
So you are saying you can take your Canon S5 (set to Auto or Program) and take 3 pics of the same target under identical lighting...one without the TC, one with the TC and TC Menu setting to OFF, and one with TC and TC Menu setting to ON, and all three photos will so show the exact same ISO, Shutter Speed, and F stop values?

Yes.

The "no free lunch" happens with the huge size of the converter, as hollis_f points out. It's twice the diameter of the lens, and the converter itself is almost as large as the camera and heavier. And the WCON-17, the wide-ange converter - is even larger and heavier.

I don't understand why you are so amazed by all this. It has long been thought of as one of the few advantages a superzoom + teleconverter has over a DSLR + teleconverter, because of the light-reducing way DSLR converters work.

You can read a review of the use of a TCON-17 ON A DSLR (yes, attaching it to the end of the DSLR's lens) here:
http://www.wrotniak.net/photo/43/si-tcon.html

It is an interesting idea, although kind of a kluge, and it again says what I've been saying:
"The TCON-17 has its front element and whole optical path wide enough not to cause any visible vignetting; it also should not show any measurable loss of light (except that caused by reflection from glass surfaces)."

As far as these new superzooms that don't take converters, like the new Canons, perhaps their lenses are too large in diameter to take the current crop of teleconverters. However, I should think that they could have provided the capability and produced new converters that would fit.

RJM · Apr 26, 2009

Thanks for that link to the test. I think his pic data confirms what I predicted, the shutter speed is slower... 1/250sec with the TC vs. 1/500sec without it. Funny how the author didn't pick up on this.

So the TCON does seem to reduce light requiring the shutter to be held open longer to get proper exposure, at least in this case. I still think the FZ28 Menu settings for the TCON and Closeup lens is there to assist the Venus Engine with accurate exposure and IS calculations. It would be cool if someone would try the 3 pic test I suggested. Then we can see if the Menu settings have an effect on the pic data.

Rick

RAH · Apr 26, 2009

RJM said:
I think his pic data confirms what I predicted, the shutter speed is slower... 1/250sec with the TC vs. 1/500sec without it.

I see that, but it doesn't prove anything because the light could have changed between shots. You won't let this go, will you. Well, I think you're wrong and you think I'm wrong (even though all the Olympus literature agrees with me), so we'll leave it at that.

Best super zoom camera for bird shots? (1 Viewer)

Scott

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