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Old Friday 4th September 2020, 19:23   #1
AGDK
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Small bird Poland

Hello

I found some older picture from first of June from my garden with this small bird.. Can anyone help me with an ID?

Sorry for the bad quality, but it's the only one I have got..
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Old Friday 4th September 2020, 20:14   #2
Deb Burhinus
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It’s kind of has the jizz of a Red-breasted Flycatcher with wings drooped down and tail cocked so maybe the white ‘patches’ are fluffed up breast feathers and white underfeathers showing due to moulting coverts? Not a brilliant suggestion but a rather unclear image as you say.
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Old Friday 4th September 2020, 20:22   #3
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That was also my first guess, even it doesn't really fit for me.. The head looks mostly like a spotted Flycatcher, the front as a Red Breasted, but the white wing patch looks more like the Pied Flycatcher.. So I'm pretty confused about it..
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Old Friday 4th September 2020, 20:27   #4
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I have attached a less cropped picture, maybe it can help a bit with the jizz, since it's less pixeled?
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Old Friday 4th September 2020, 20:29   #5
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Just to mention, then we have both Pied, Spotted and Red-Breasted in the area, but have never seen any of them in my garden..
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Old Friday 4th September 2020, 20:33   #6
Deb Burhinus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AGDK View Post
... The head looks mostly like a spotted Flycatcher, the front as a Red Breasted, but the white wing patch looks more like the Pied Flycatcher.. So I'm pretty confused about it..
I also went through exactly the same thought process

I don’t think the ground colour of head and mantle really works for Pied though. Which would leave Spotted or RB with ‘dislodged’, and/or moulting feathers. The posture is very typical for RB not so much for Spotted.

...or it could be something completely different
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Old Friday 4th September 2020, 21:32   #7
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My first reaction to the image was also Red-breasted Flycatcher, despite the apparent white wing patch.
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Old Friday 4th September 2020, 22:09   #8
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Why is this not a juvenile stonechat?
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Old Friday 4th September 2020, 22:11   #9
Alexander Stöhr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opisska View Post
Why is this not a juvenile stonechat?
That was my thought, too
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Old Friday 4th September 2020, 23:16   #10
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Originally Posted by Alexander Stöhr View Post
That was my thought, too
...and mine
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Old Friday 4th September 2020, 23:23   #11
Deb Burhinus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opisska View Post
Why is this not a juvenile stonechat?
Wouldn’t a juvenile Stonechat at the height of the breeding season, (1st June) be a little out of place in a garden with dense mature (shrubs)? (It would also still be in juvenile plumage rather than 1st w so would be much darker and more heavily streaked than the image shows).

Further, the pot-bellied, low-slung rotund shape, along with drooped wings, comparatively long necked/small headed appearance don’t immediately say ‘Stonechat’ to me. Shape-wise, it looks better for a flycatcher imo. When ever I see Stonechats I always think they tend to look slightly barrel chested and more narrow hipped cf to the op image with a slightly erect stance but ‘squat’ necked appearance (although posture and weather influences shape impression)

Stonechat - juvenile 5th June
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?i...cture_id=68395
- July

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?i...cture_id=28695

Adult 16 June
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?i...cture_id=49222

A ‘round’ individual but taken in winter when presumably the temperature would be lower

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?i...cture_id=24448


I’m not saying it’s not a Stonechat but there’s a lot that would stop me reaching that conclusion just on this one image!
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Last edited by Deb Burhinus : Saturday 5th September 2020 at 00:57. Reason: correction
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Old Saturday 5th September 2020, 00:27   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb Burhinus View Post
Wouldn’t a juvenile Stonechat at the height of the breeding season, (1st June) be a little out of place in a garden with mature trees?
It is in front of a Hydrangea or Viburnum shrub - I don't see any mention of mature trees?
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Old Saturday 5th September 2020, 00:45   #13
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Originally Posted by Nutcracker View Post
It is in front of a Hydrangea or Viburnum shrub - I don't see any mention of mature trees?
my bad

Still it would be interesting to know from the OP if he has breeding Stonechats in the vicinity given their preference for scrub and open country.

The voting has started I see so perhaps I will remain alone on the fence in having my doubts this is a juvenile Stonechat. I’m glad I don’t have this trouble separating Stonechats or Flycatchers in the field
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Old Saturday 5th September 2020, 00:48   #14
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Oh I just read Stonechat. I agree it can't be a juvenile but should be female.
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Old Saturday 5th September 2020, 00:54   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CARERY View Post
Oh I just read Stonechat. I agree it can't be a juvenile but should be female.
Can you give your reasonings please and also if you can show me a link with a female with clean cream belly and flanks with a clean cut off of the pale orange upper breast - also an image where a Stonechat is perched with its wings drooped down and tail cocked as I honestly don’t recall ever seeing this posture on a Stonechat like this.
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Old Saturday 5th September 2020, 01:44   #16
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Juv Stonechat was also my first thought. But helas, I don't think it's one.

First of June is an excelent date for juvenile flycatchers to fledge, and I tend to agree with Deb that this is one of the flycatchers, but a juvenile (I'm not sure this is what you had in mind when suggesting it).
The juvenile plumage of flycatchers is usually not shown in fieldguides: what is shown is the plumage that follows the post-juvenile moult: 1st winters. The juvenile plumage is retained for a minimum period and moulted before migration. Juveniles are spotted, much in a juv. Stonechat fashion. I was looking for reference photos to compare and to show you, and I found 1st winters being called juveniles even on ID plates (look here for example: https://identify.whatbird.com/obj/96...lycatcher.aspx)
I think this may be a juvenile Pied (eventually Collared: do you get them around?), possibly already moulting out of this plumage (but the photo detail does not allow to speculate much about this; the white patch should not be coincidental.
Here's a photo of a juv. Collared (Pied are similar): https://www.flickr.com/photos/andrea...er/29829329501 (pay attention to the head pattern, the area behind the eye, and how this is actually a bit reminescent of Stonechat)
and a juv Red-breasted (spotting much more extensive, no white on wing, etc): http://www.rusnature.info/nature/us/pages/03007509A.htm
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Old Saturday 5th September 2020, 02:00   #17
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And yet, after posting this I don't feel it's quite right. Hmmm....
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Old Saturday 5th September 2020, 02:21   #18
Deb Burhinus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RafaelMatias View Post
...the white patch should not be coincidental.
I’m beginning to wonder if the ‘white patches’ are actually artefact on the photo from strong sunlight and shadow coming through the foliage ..

https://twitter.com/carolprobets/sta...798144/photo/2


http://birdingforalark.blogspot.com/...at-mudayy.html
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Old Saturday 5th September 2020, 04:39   #19
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Thanks for all your suggestions.. Now I see why I had some troubles finding the right ID for it.. :)

We have some Stonechats in the area, but I have never seen them in my garden either.. But they are breading regularly like 500-700 meters away.. The closet anyone ever have registered a Red Breasted from my house is around 5 km.. Collared Flycatcher has never been seen in my region.. 300-400 km more east they are common..

Me and my neighbours gardens is just typical gardens, with some tall trees of different types and the usual shrubs.. Mainly surrounded by pine forest, but to the south is a great open area with wetland/rivers with just small trees.. So it's a good habitat for many different type of birds..

It might just be something with the light/camera as suggested, since the camera I had at hand is a pretty old one.. Just a shame I just took that one shot..

Once again, thanks for all your inputs.. Appreciated!

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Old Saturday 5th September 2020, 08:43   #20
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OK let's face it, there is a lot of interpretation about a - no offence - poor photo going on here. Is the white wing patch genuine or just an artefact, are the wings drooped and the tail cocked at all? To me it rather looks like the lower back and rump feathers are fluffed thus leading to this strange jizz. I can't see the tail and the wings seem to be at the right place for a Stonechat. Still, having looked at it again now the head and eyes proportionally seem to be too small for Stonechat. I agree with some here it looks more like a flycatcher which also would fit the habitat better.

As for the suggestion of juvenile flycatchers on 1st June: Pied would be rather early and Red-breasted almost impossible as the bulk arrive not before Beginning/Mid May in Central Europe.

In the end, I think we probably will not know for sure what it was...
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Old Saturday 5th September 2020, 09:57   #21
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Possibly a young Robin with a “wing artefact?”

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Old Saturday 5th September 2020, 10:14   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb Burhinus View Post
Wouldn’t a juvenile Stonechat at the height of the breeding season, (1st June) be a little out of place in a garden with dense mature (shrubs)?!
I was just throwing that idea based on general feel, by no means I insist on it being a Stonechat. But I find the argument of "out of place" really weird on a thread where people suggest Red-breasted Flycatcher, a bird that basically never occurs outside dense deciduous forests!
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Old Saturday 5th September 2020, 13:00   #23
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Originally Posted by opisska View Post
...But I find the argument of "out of place" really weird on a thread where people suggest Red-breasted Flycatcher, a bird that basically never occurs outside dense deciduous forests!
To widen the discussion (not withstanding the OP image, which as Roland says, is probably unidentifiable!) What you say, maybe correct for specific regions (eg where ‘dense deciduous forests’ are the available habitat) but I’ve certainly seen R-bF in mixed or predominantly spruce plantations where there are also a good density of dead trees/snags ... the OP reports R-bF in his area that has both river and gardens/general area being ‘surrounded ’ by forest habitat which sounds fine for R-bF to me.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile...ication_detail


”Because the dominant tree species in the territories of Red-Breasted Flycatch- ers are also the most frequently used trees for nest-sites (Mitrus & soc ́ko 2004), it is likely that Red-Breasted Flycatchers choose territories based on the density or Tree density (indiv./10ha)

38 C. Mitrus, N. Kleszko and B. Soc ́ko
quality of nesting trees. Standing snags may also be an important component of habitat quality because almost 30% of Red-breasted Flycatchers (Mitrus & soc ́ko 2004) and other cavity nesting birds (wesołowski 1989, showalter & whitMore 2002, czeszczewik & walankiewicz 2003) build nests in snags. A territory com- prised of high snag density may also indicate greater food resources because snags harbor many species of insect larvae (aulen 1991, irMler et al. 1996, Fayt 1999). To date, few researchers have described in detail the biotope of the Red-breasted Flycatcher. In eastern Sweden, most Red-breasted Flycatchers territories are located in mixed coniferous stands with only 10% deciduous (tJenberg 1984). In Russia and Belarus, the territories are dominated by spruce and alder (peklo 1987, bysh- nev & stavrovsky 1998). It is likely that for Red-breasted Flycatchers across its breeding range, it is not tree stand composition, but the availability of food resourc- es and nest sites that are of primary importance for territory quality.”
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Last edited by Deb Burhinus : Saturday 5th September 2020 at 13:11. Reason: typos
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Old Saturday 5th September 2020, 13:35   #24
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Well I wanted to say it's a slightly odd picture of a Chaffinch.
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Old Saturday 5th September 2020, 13:56   #25
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Originally Posted by CARERY View Post
As for the suggestion of juvenile flycatchers on 1st June: Pied would be rather early and Red-breasted almost impossible as the bulk arrive not before Beginning/Mid May in Central Europe.

In the end, I think we probably will not know for sure what it was...
You're absolutely right. On both accounts.
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