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Nikon FF (and DX) Mirrorless rumours/ announcements

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Old Thursday 15th August 2019, 15:40   #276
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Is there much of a market for a small sensor ILC? It seems like it's 24-200 P&S or superzoom bridge cameras.
I think many here recognise the benefits of the '1' system, it's potential, and lament it's virtual passing as a supported ongoingly developed system.

It could be argued that it's AF system was state of the art and led the way when it was introduced. I think the system's demise was entirely avoidable - it seemed to come from a combination of i) too expensive (including accessories) , ii) hamstrung to protect existing DSLR's , iii) undecided ergonomics - did it want to be small or easy to hold (to be fair this is a criticism I have of all market offerings - really only able to be solved by converter or add-on grips) , iv) lack of fast lenses at launch. I would have liked to see what they could have done with a 300 or 400mm f4 or f5.6 at a pinch for a 4 or 500mm telephoto perhaps even now using diffractive optics technology , v) Sensor wasn't quite there - too much chroma noise. The offerings now in the J5, Sony RX series, and the new Canon GX series are bang on what is required.

The beauty of the 1" system is that as well as the three or so interchangeable lens product ranges (V, J, AW, etc) , the bulk of the components and operating systems, and accessories etc could have been parlayed into a couple of fixed lens bridge cameras as well. It seems to me that there is a good market for the wide angle - short tele zoom Sony RX100 /Canon GX type cameras, as well as the longer telephoto zoom types such as the Sony RX10 IV etc.

I would really like to see a really wide 1" bridge telescoping zoom of say 20-200?mm , with high quality lenses as fast as they can be made (f1.4-f2.4 ?). This would be the pocket/travel/street model.

The other model would be a long telephoto model of say 35-750 or 800mm f2.4-f4 again top quality lenses. Sony has really set the standard here with it's Zeiss lenses.

This is about as much business case as you could squash out of this system, perhaps even a video centric model that could do 4K/60p as well.

As Niels said, the question is could they make any money out of each additional unit sold that would earn it's keep in the product and business portfolio ? and indeed do the facilities and expertise still exist or have they been converted to other product lines?

I could see an unhampered '1' system let off the leash to capitalise on it's full capabilities having a place. Addressing the concerns I mentioned and turbocharged with computational photography abilities, AI, and all the goodies (pixel shift frame stacking, eye AF etc) it would offer something above and beyond what is possible with smartphones .......

We can only hope that Nikon gets in a position to resurrect it one day ....



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Old Friday 16th August 2019, 14:07   #277
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Nikon Z Mirrorless APS-C Camera Mockups

https://nikonrumors.com/2019/08/15/n...-mockups.aspx/

Interesting size comparison with the Z 85mm f1.8 S lens on - that would be just a little more length than the size of a 16-200mm maybe f3.3-f4.5 which should be the standard kit lens (24-300mm eq).




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Old Friday 16th August 2019, 14:20   #278
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
I think many here recognise the benefits of the '1' system, it's potential, and lament it's virtual passing as a supported ongoingly developed system.

It could be argued that it's AF system was state of the art and led the way when it was introduced.
In 2014 a German AF comparison test had the Olympus OM-D E-M1 winning among the mirrorless cameras, but it added this remark:
Quote:
As far as the pure AF system is concerned, the Nikon 1 V3 is noticeably better, but due to its user-unfriendly handling of the motive tracking, it gambles away the victory. Nikon has to do a lot more here.
I shoot raptors in flight with the Nikon V2 and rarely miss. Same with doves, gulls etc. Being familiar with the V2, who needs tracking? Also, the V3 has a much worse AF-C than the V2. Thus if Nikon were ever to produce a V4, how can we be sure the AF-C were actually an improvement?

The OM-D E-M1 ii is said to be a huge improvement for "birds in flight". But I keep waiting for a serious shoot-out between the Nikon V2 and the E-M1 ii.
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Old Sunday 18th August 2019, 18:30   #279
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What I was trying to say: even as an N1 enthusiast I couldn't say how the V4 might have looked - the V2, V3 and J5 behave so differently in terms of AF-C and AF-A. The N1 philosophy seems to have found its "dead end". The N1 stood for simplicity, yet the general trend is the opposite. Users want to play with all the settings, just like a mini-D500.
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Old Thursday 29th August 2019, 05:52   #280
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Nikon to drop 5 DSLR lines ....

https://nikonrumors.com/2019/08/28/d...of-dslrs.aspx/
Along with the rumoured entry level APS-C Z Mirrorless, we can draw inferences for what this means for both DSLR and Z Mirrorless ranges into the future.

Currently Nikon has DSLR's available in:
D3xxx, D5xxx, D7xxx, D5xx, D6xx, D7xx, D8xx, D5, and Df.

Out of these I think the entry level D3xxx, D5xxx are for the chop to be replaced by virtually a single entry level APS-C Z mount Mirrorless - maybe in two flavas - one with EVF, and one without. D6xx would also be for the chop, arguably replaced by the Z6 already. The next ones for the chop would be the Df, and the D750 after it is upgraded with the D760.

I can see a case for amalgamating the Df and D760 lines into a retro style DSLR with the guts of the Z6, but than can also screw drive, and handle manual aperture, for older lenses. OK so I've chopped 5 DSLR lines, and brought one hybrid one back.

The D500 is a strange one - there was a rumour that it would be discontinued, but you'd have to ask yourself why? It is arguably the best APS-C camera available. The recent release of the mirrorless Sony 6600 just resulted in lots of fanboi's and girlz crying into their breakfast - it was anything but the 'mini a9' that many had hoped for. It seems that Sony is now every bit as crippling and Micro segment marketing as the CaNikon duopoly dinosaurs. I can't see why the D560 successor or whatever they call it couldn't just easily and cheaply build on the same winning formula with a higher resolution (26MP BSI) sensor, 4K60p cropped /4K30p uncropped video, a few more fps, and an uprated metering and AF system from the new D6 that is on the way. This will give Nikon valuable time to get the Mirrorless Pro DX up to scratch with an AF system that will at least match the D500.

I'm not sure on the fate of the D7500 whether it continues in both F and Z mount. Essentially the remaining entry level DSLR's - D7600, and D760 -> D760/Df II hybrid, become parts bin specials - largely tweaking hand me down technology. I think the 'Pro' D500, D850, and D5 next generation successors will play the same DSLR + Mirrorless game, perhaps named the Z5, Z8, and Z9 ranges ? Very interesting that the mirrorless Canon M6 II and the DSLR 90D both share sensors and processing.

I think Nikon may do something similar but with better mount migration possible. It's the best way to shepard customers through the transition while keeping a reign on development costs and time frames. Some DSLR customers will be stalwarts until EVF's advance to offer no compromise shooting and viewing compared to an OVF, and Mirrorless AF systems assert superiority (the rumoured Sony a9 II should be interesting in this regard).

Eventually when the Pro Mirrorless systems surpass the DSLR's they will all completely transition, maybe having just the one Pro level DSLR continue on along with an entry level Df II for all the retro stylers out there!





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Old Saturday 31st August 2019, 03:49   #281
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They need to keep a prosumer DSLR or get a new FTZ-D that can do screw drive lenses with an aperture feeler. The current situation w/ the FTZ and older lenses is a joke.

I don't think Nikon can afford to release another Z mount with subpar sports AF compared to the high-end DSLRs -- well, at least not a Z that costs so much! They also need a big tracking usability upgrade, having to initiate it from full-frame auto AF is a losing strategy. Hopefully they can fix it in the Z6/Z7 too.

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Old Saturday 31st August 2019, 20:27   #282
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Interesting to see that Nikon is putting a lot of work on IBIS & video in the D6 (if the rumor is true). Maybe it will live longer than expected.

Perhaps even the D500 will survive for another generation.
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Old Saturday 31st August 2019, 21:17   #283
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Interesting to see that Nikon is putting a lot of work on IBIS & video in the D6 (if the rumor is true). Maybe it will live longer than expected.

Perhaps even the D500 will survive for another generation.
IBIS is probably an order of magnitude harder to implement in a DSLR than in Mirrorless, because of the way that they meter, focus, and expose. I wonder how far down the line this feature will go ? - I'm thinking not far given the D6 will cost the same as a reasonably priced car !

I think in general (and especially at the Pro levels), DSLR'S will live on until all Mirrorless banding /star-eating, and EVF resolution /speed /lag /blackout issues are resolved. The OVF seems to have a lot of life left in it yet - you would have to think that a hybrid overlay showing live blinkies /zebras is the next trick in the book for the mid-life upgrade say ~3 years down the track. The development pace of DSLR's may slow, and I expect mid range models to become parts bin specials. I think low end DSLR's will disappear purely on a Bill of Materials cost saving basis by transitioning to Mirrorless.

That's not to say this delays Mirrorless - rather they coexist - 1 declining in the rate of R&D, the other one progressively ramping up. I think we will see APS-C Mirrorless Z's soon, and then the ~60MP Z8 next year sometime. I think the Pro Mirrorless doesn't land until 2021 ......

I really hope the D500 gets a generational update based on the D6 - at least improved metering, focus, and processing hardware and software, and maybe another genuine 2fps up to 12 with AF/AE/Tracking, and keeping the 200 full RAW buffer. IBIS may be a bridge too far at the APS-C price point for now. Smooth uncropped video capabilities at 4K30p oversampled at least seems to be a must in this market, the higher frame rates can be cropped to offer differentiation from the D6.

Paired with a PF 600mm f5.6 surely it would have to put plenty of bums on seats. Importantly as I've mentioned more than once - I think releasing this D500S or D560 or whatever, would buy valuable time for Nikon to develop Pro level Mirrorless AF systems. I agree with previous comments - those need to be right and competitive with what is likely to be a pretty impressive Sony a9 II market leader, straight out of the blocks.




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Old Saturday 31st August 2019, 22:06   #284
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IBIS is probably an order of magnitude harder to implement in a DSLR than in Mirrorless, because of the way that they meter, focus, and expose. I wonder how far down the line this feature will go ? - I'm thinking not far given the D6 will cost the same as a reasonably priced car !

I think in general (and especially at the Pro levels), DSLR'S will live on until all Mirrorless banding /star-eating, and EVF resolution /speed /lag /blackout issues are resolved. The OVF seems to have a lot of life left in it yet - you would have to think that a hybrid overlay showing live blinkies /zebras is the next trick in the book for the mid-life upgrade say ~3 years down the track. The development pace of DSLR's may slow, and I expect mid range models to become parts bin specials. I think low end DSLR's will disappear purely on a Bill of Materials cost saving basis by transitioning to Mirrorless.

That's not to say this delays Mirrorless - rather they coexist - 1 declining in the rate of R&D, the other one progressively ramping up. I think we will see APS-C Mirrorless Z's soon, and then the ~60MP Z8 next year sometime. I think the Pro Mirrorless doesn't land until 2021 ......

I really hope the D500 gets a generational update based on the D6 - at least improved metering, focus, and processing hardware and software, and maybe another genuine 2fps up to 12 with AF/AE/Tracking, and keeping the 200 full RAW buffer. IBIS may be a bridge too far at the APS-C price point for now. Smooth uncropped video capabilities at 4K30p oversampled at least seems to be a must in this market, the higher frame rates can be cropped to offer differentiation from the D6.

Paired with a PF 600mm f5.6 surely it would have to put plenty of bums on seats. Importantly as I've mentioned more than once - I think releasing this D500S or D560 or whatever, would buy valuable time for Nikon to develop Pro level Mirrorless AF systems. I agree with previous comments - those need to be right and competitive with what is likely to be a pretty impressive Sony a9 II market leader, straight out of the blocks.

Chosun
Possibly IBIS is more targeted at video with a slight crop, for news shooters etc.

Perhaps Nikon will make cheaper "APS-Z" cameras. But will they sell any?
Maybe the market just isn't there.

The D500 would definitely be worth an update. Battery life for ever and OVF are nice things to have.
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Old Saturday 31st August 2019, 23:11   #285
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....Perhaps Nikon will make cheaper "APS-Z" cameras. But will they sell any?
Maybe the market just isn't there....
Yes ! That is the $64 Million Dollar question - literally !

All the market analysis (as evidenced by the major player's CEO's public comments) seems to indicate that smartphones (and saturation) is taking all the volume out of the market, and compacts, and DSLR's in particular. Certainly recent sales numbers seem to indicate this is so.

Nikon's APS-C lines are it's volume sellers. They are the ones expected to take a hit. The Mirrorless EOS-M range is a huge seller for Canon, and seems to be weathering the storm somewhat.

Nikon will be betting a large chunk of the house on APS-C Mirrorless Z being a similar saviour for their volumes. At least they got the Z mount part right so migration won't be an issue (though this doesn't really seem to be hurting Canon).
https://nikonrumors.com/2019/08/15/n...-mockups.aspx/

Engineering and Business-wise it makes very good sense. The money they save on mirror boxes, prisms, separate metering and focusing circuitry, etc will pay for the necessary R&D with the rest able to be plugged back into the bottom line.

It will be critical that they have not only Mirrorless offerings however - but ones that tick all the boxes consumers want. The DSLR D3xxx, D5xxx, and D7xxx are actually very good for what they are ..... Nikon will have to improve on these with the Mirrorless products if they are to succeed - consumers want it all ! Sony also has set the bar quite high as far as AF and tracking goes, right throughout their product ranges - that will be one area among many that Nikon will have to at least equal. Canon also seems to be getting lots of positive punter press for their new EOS-M6 II.

Nikon has got it's work cut out - not only for bodies, but lenses too. I will be interested to see how long it takes them to come out with native Z DX lenses like 10-24 f4 (3.5?), and their 16-80 f2.8-f4 (3.5?) as well as a basic kit 16-200 f3.5-f5.6 .....

Fingers crossed for Nikon.





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Old Friday 6th September 2019, 13:30   #286
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Cool New 2020/2021 Nikon Nikkor Z S-Line Lens Roadmap Leaked

It will be interesting to see how accurate this is .... ? No Z telephotos of any real length .....
https://nikonrumors.com/2019/09/05/n...p-leaked.aspx/





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Old Friday 6th September 2019, 18:08   #287
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It will be interesting to see how accurate this is .... ? No Z telephotos of any real length .....
https://nikonrumors.com/2019/09/05/n...p-leaked.aspx/

Chosun
My understanding is that telephotos don't really benefit from the wider mount or decreased flange distance, so adapting them (assuming the AF speed is the same) is about the same image. Sure, they could be a tiny bit shorter, but it is not on the scale of differences you see in the shorter focal lengths.

And I'm sure they want to keep the sports stuff all in the D5/D6 until the last possible moment.

FWIW, Jared Polin said that he dumped his D5/D500 a while ago while they still had good resale value and uses the A9 for all his action shooting now, though he does seem to like the Z6 + S lenses for portrait. I know I've been selling off D lenses, like the 135.

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Old Friday 6th September 2019, 19:19   #288
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My understanding is that telephotos don't really benefit from the wider mount or decreased flange distance, so adapting them (assuming the AF speed is the same) is about the same image. Sure, they could be a tiny bit shorter, but it is not on the scale of differences you see in the shorter focal lengths.

And I'm sure they want to keep the sports stuff all in the D5/D6 until the last possible moment.

FWIW, Jared Polin said that he dumped his D5/D500 a while ago while they still had good resale value and uses the A9 for all his action shooting now, though he does seem to like the Z6 + S lenses for portrait. I know I've been selling off D lenses, like the 135.

Marc
Purely considering the optical design then yes, the biggest benefits are at the wide angle end of the focal range. In theory redesigning all lenses for the Z mount could offer a 30mm length saving at least, however a few seem to be just the old design with a 30mm hollow tube tacked on to the end. Perhaps this has been done for expediency or cost reasons.

There is a link somewhere in this thread where the designers state that better more precise focus is possible with the Z system due to the increased communications pathways between body and lens. This advantage seems to be even greater with dual focus motors, even driving groups in opposite directions to converge on the focal spot quicker. We could have some really snappy focus lenses ....

It does seem for now at least that Nikon IS keeping the sports / wildlife capability in the Pro F mount cameras. I can only hope they lighten the supertelephotos Pronto to match the competition, and hurry up delivering the PF 600 f5.6 !

Perhaps this bodes well for a DSLR successor to the D500 too - I'm sure they could transfer just enough D6 tech to keep it at the head of the pack (even if Sony does manage an a7000) - it would be awesome if they used the 26MP chip as in the Fujifilm. They could probably hobble the feature set (no dual card slots, less fps etc) enough to use the same sensor in a D7600 too - that's looking a little rusty now that Canon has come out with a high res /high speed 90D ......




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Old Saturday 7th September 2019, 17:33   #289
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It will be interesting to see how accurate this is .... ? No Z telephotos of any real length .....
https://nikonrumors.com/2019/09/05/n...p-leaked.aspx/
A few strange ones on this road map ....
I don't fully understand why you would bring out the 24 /f1.8 the year before the 20 /f1.8 when the only thing wider than that to start with is the f4 wide-angle zoom ..... ?

But the real kicker is what the holy Hector is the 28-70 /f2.8-f3.5 ?! Why on earth would you need that when you have 24-70 /f4, and 24-70 /f2.8 ....... surely there are other more profitable and volume selling lenses to make ?




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Old Saturday 7th September 2019, 18:45   #290
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A few strange ones on this road map ....
I don't fully understand why you would bring out the 24 /f1.8 the year before the 20 /f1.8 when the only thing wider than that to start with is the f4 wide-angle zoom ..... ?
To make people buy the 24 when the really want the 20, so they then buy the 20 later.

Quote:
But the real kicker is what the holy Hector is the 28-70 /f2.8-f3.5 ?! Why on earth would you need that when you have 24-70 /f4, and 24-70 /f2.8 ....... surely there are other more profitable and volume selling lenses to make ?
I don't understand the 28-70/2.8-3.5. I could understand doing a kit zoom that is smaller and lighter weight. But they already have an f/4, so could this be smaller? I don't think so. It's a head scratcher.

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Old Saturday 21st September 2019, 06:46   #291
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A few details of what is likely to be the 60MP Z8 ....
I can only hope that the lossy RAW compression is in addition to proper lossless compression. It may be a good alternative to Jpeg (but then there may be better alternatives to that anyway just waiting for widespread adoption) , as long as all the different modes are available as a user choice.
https://www.nikonrumors.co/leaked-ne...bit-nef-files/
https://nikonrumors.com/2019/09/19/f...ef-files.aspx/




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Old Saturday 21st September 2019, 07:32   #292
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Mirrorless APS-C design patents

Nikon has made two design patents for it's Z mount APS-C Mirrorless models. The format looks very much along the lines of Sony's a6xxx series of cameras - maybe one even has pop-up flash and pop-up EVF ..... ?
https://nikonrumors.com/2019/09/20/n...-cameras.aspx/

It will be interesting to see how the feel compares with the D3500 /D5600 DSLR's. Also interesting to see if there is any real advancement in computational photography and connectivity .....





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Old Monday 23rd September 2019, 13:45   #293
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“We Want To Increase The Development Speed Of New Products & Shorten the Lead Time ."

https://nikonrumors.com/2019/09/22/n...products.aspx/





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Old Monday 23rd September 2019, 13:56   #294
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Nikon to announce the Z mount APS-C mirrorless 'Z50' and 2 lenses

https://nikonrumors.com/2019/09/23/b...ced-soon.aspx/

Well, the announcement will be welcome, but I wonder if a mere 20MP will cut it in 2019? given the competition. I'm also a bit disappointed that they are sticking with the 2 lens kit type approach. I think it's a missed opportunity not to do a single 16-200 f3.5-f5.6 ......





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Old Monday 23rd September 2019, 16:34   #295
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https://nikonrumors.com/2019/09/23/b...ced-soon.aspx/

Well, the announcement will be welcome, but I wonder if a mere 20MP will cut it in 2019? given the competition. I'm also a bit disappointed that they are sticking with the 2 lens kit type approach. I think it's a missed opportunity not to do a single 16-200 f3.5-f5.6 ......

Chosun
If that is what you want you better switch to Olympus: https://www.43rumors.com/olympus-12-...ging-resource/

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Old Monday 23rd September 2019, 17:09   #296
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If that is what you want you better switch to Olympus: https://www.43rumors.com/olympus-12-...ging-resource/

Niels
Niels,

I'd be inclined to go more for something like the 12-100 f4 Pro https://m.dpreview.com/products/olym...100_4p0_is_pro

In the APS-C Nikon DSLR DX mount third party providers match the lens you posted, and nearly do what I suggested https://m.dpreview.com/products/tamr...16-300-3p5-6p3

With equivalent FL glass, aspherics, and CFRP and other engineering plastics, such a lens as I suggested could come in at the same size and weight of these offerings or less. Important to get the long end aperture sped up to at least f5.6 I feel.

I just don't see that Nikon has done anything innovative, nor anything to capitalize on the Z mount dimensions. Apart from more fps, and future proofing, where's the compelling argument over the existing APS-C DSLR's ........ ?

People tossing up whether to buy this in addition to their new iPhone 11 Pro would have to search quite hard ..... it's no good having the larger DX sized sensor with a couple of slow lenses you have to swap between imo.



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Old Tuesday 24th September 2019, 17:08   #297
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https://nikonrumors.com/2019/09/23/b...ced-soon.aspx/

Well, the announcement will be welcome, but I wonder if a mere 20MP will cut it in 2019? given the competition. I'm also a bit disappointed that they are sticking with the 2 lens kit type approach. I think it's a missed opportunity not to do a single 16-200 f3.5-f5.6 ......
I think this is typical Nikon. Release a first set of not-quite-what-you-want lenses and bodies so people buy them, then release the lens/bodies that people really want. I'm sure they will do a new all-purpose walk-around Z lens in 9-12 months.

From the design patents, the bodies look like very small (think a6400-size) bodies targeted at consumer, not prosumer. I bet with those kit lenses they can nail a sweet spot that will fill the d3xxxx and d5xxxx market.

I'm still waiting for the d500 replacement. It's looking like Sony will get there first with their a7000 (or whatever it will be called).

It is not clear to me if these two new lenses are Z-mount DX image circle lenses or small FF lenses. I'm assuming they are targeting a small DX image circle.

The current rumor is the Z50 sensor is based on the d500, and they are not sure if the smaller a6400-sized bodies are for the Z50 or not. They said this is supposed to be on the d7xxx quality level.

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Old Wednesday 25th September 2019, 11:28   #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcsantacurz View Post
I think this is typical Nikon. Release a first set of not-quite-what-you-want lenses and bodies so people buy them, then release the lens/bodies that people really want. ....
Unfortunately I think you are right about that. It's the same situation as not releasing the 20mm f1.8 Z lens before the 24mm ...

Granted that the APS-C Z's will be cheaper to manufacture, but really where is the 'compelling' reason to get these over the D3/5/7xxx DSLR's ? I mean the existing F mount DX lenses would all readily adapt anyway for those stuck in that outdated 2 kit lens approach.

It seems a crazy strategy to continue on with the same modus operandi that has seen your market share plummet right in front of you. There's opportunity here and I'm a bit cranky that Nikon isn't seizing it. By making one decent 16~200 f3.5-f5.6 APS-C Z mount zoom lens as I suggested instead (especially for a D7xxx level camera https://nikonrumors.com/2019/09/24/n...-updates.aspx/ ), they could also save on the timeframe to put the other essential lenses out that existing or potential customers are waiting on .....

The pricing of all of these vs the run out entry level legacy DSLR's will be interesting to see. Interesting also to see if the bread and butter DX upgrade camera - the D7500 continues on at all, let alone gets an upgrade ....




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Old Wednesday 25th September 2019, 18:50   #299
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If the Z50 is a d7500-based sensor, I doubt there will be a d7600.

It does seem odd to bill it as a d7500-class camera and have those lower end consumer lenses. I suspect they are going for small size & weight as the differentiating features, at least that's all that makes sense to me given what we know.

I guess they are trying to compete against the A6600? Same 11FPS, but lower res. We'll need to see if they have something that tilts the scale towards Nikon from Sony.

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Old Friday 4th October 2019, 07:41   #300
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Z50 further details ....

Looks like it is billed as a Sony a6400 competitor .... No IBIS
https://nikonrumors.com/2019/10/02/n...ormation.aspx/
Just under a grand - interesting pricing !?!




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