Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Zeiss - Always on the lookout for something special – Shop now

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

What if......

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Monday 23rd December 2019, 20:24   #1
jan van daalen
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: maarssen holland
Posts: 1,941
What if......

Ok, this has been a while�� but for the record, the following in not in my native language so bare with me please:

The “What if” scenario.

First of all it is important to understand that my business is work and not just a hobby. Work that next to the wellbeing of 7 staffmembers and a workethic of 10-12 hours a day, also an investment requires of 500.000,00 euro which is not by any way financed by Leica or any other company. Decisions like giving Leica the boot are very well overthought and made in consensus with the Optics Team.
What I’m gonna write down will give you an insight in how business is done in my optics world, from my perspective only and has to been seen in that light.
How we got into this business is allready written down by Lee in the interview section, how Leica got into this current mess will become clear below.

Leica is present in our shop for about 20 years now and from day one in the top 4 best sold brands. They contributed a lot of Point of Sale material to us as did the other brands. We visited the Leica plants, both in Solms and Wetzlar on several occasions as we did at the locations of the other brands. We don’t have only the good selling products of them in stock but all of them, like we do with the other brands. With the launch of the Noctivid it seemed to be a good idea to wrap our event car with a cutaway print of this model. Our goal is when people enter our shop they enter the optics paradise. We have a optics “museum” going from 1850 to the present time. We show the original optics trade catalogue from Japan which David Bushnell personally used to purchase optical equipment up to the original Minox Spy camera James Bond used in one of his movies. The road to collecting things is much more interesting than the possession of them��.

Since it is work and not a hobby, we take signals from the market seriously in order to be able to indicate where we will stand over five years. Bushnell is a sub brand in our shop from the beginning and compared to the sales of the big guns it is penny work, but……. Bushnell models in the USA cost 179,00 dollar on Amazone where in Europe 479,00 euro has to be paid within the normal margin rate. Amazone will come to Holland and will dominate the prices of the sub brands. So, where will these brands stand over five years in our shop?

Leica’s management has changed completely several times in the last five years and the current one seems not to show any respect for their authorised dealers who invested a lot of money in Leica stock. Not only decided Leica to sell the Retrovid exclusiv through their own channels, they didn’t inform us in any way about their plans while on every optics trade fair they kept yepping that the Retrovids were to be sold through dealers network. Untill 14 days before launching the Retrovid in their Leica stores. By then the Dutch Leica rep was forced to confirm to us what already was known on several Forums. Leica’s move on this has several benefits for them. They keep the trade margin for their country reps and for their dealers to themselves. Normally such a move would lower the consumer price since margins disappear. Direct sale from manufacturer to end consumer would be a cost effective tool. I did not see this happen with the Retrovid. It is in line with one of the Leica reps sales talks during our last meet in Wetzlar: “the higher the price we ask for it the harder the customer runs”.
Where does this leave us, the optic dealers? Where do we stand over 5 years when Amazone rules over the sub brands and A-brands starts to sell exclusive to the end consumer with or without full margin. For me, there is only one answer to that. Not on my watch. I can not and will not speak for fellow traders but if we do not give a signal……….
Trust is earned and it is short term vision against long term vision. Spreadsheetmanagers are not interested in long term, only in bonus and their next job. They seem to have no interest at all in the product the company is producing. But when they think they can roll over this dealer……think again!

Or, this is just the beginning of a new way of doing business in which case the future of the independent dealer is gone and brands start to sell through exclusive channels direct to the end consumer to reduce the cost price for them, using public fairs/own stores to show them the products in real life. If so, so be it, But no way I’ll accept to be kept in the dark and being mislead like Leica has done by yepping A and doing B in full disregards for the interest of their authorised dealer and seemingly purely for their own benefits.

This was the one and only reason we gave Leica the boot.

Jan

Last edited by Troubador : Tuesday 24th December 2019 at 07:38.
jan van daalen is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 23rd December 2019, 21:00   #2
Canip
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Nordschweiz
Posts: 705
Jan,

You have my fullest respect for your decision.

Trade in general, and optics trade in particular, is a tough business. How it will evolve is not certain, but when everybody, from manufacturers to sales offices, is managed more and more by spreadsheet managers, leading to slashed inventories, laid-off employees and completely outsourced value chains, I fear for the worst. Of course, customers buying everything online are not helping, either. But they sometimes don‘t even have much choice.

The optics business has already undergone enormous changes over the last 30 years. You are now one of a rapidly shrinking number of shops which still carry a sizable inventory and provide a value-adding service to people looking to buy optics equipment. You are carrying a flag that many others have dropped years ago. So, your decision must have been a very tough one indeed.

Again, my fullest respect.

Canip
Canip is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 23rd December 2019, 21:45   #3
OhWeh
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 86
Jan, this is a decision, I fully understand.

I wish, you will not loose too much customers (they will find fine glasses from Zeiss, Swarovski, etc. in your store).

I wish also, that many of your colleagues will follow, so Leica will feel, that this is the wrong way.
OhWeh is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 23rd December 2019, 21:57   #4
Boogieshrew
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 576
Thank you for clarifying things Jan. I was mystified but now I understand. And I think you decision is right.

I hope you have a fine future without Leica.
Boogieshrew is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 23rd December 2019, 22:23   #5
Binastro
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: S.England
Posts: 4,820
Thanks Jan for writing this.

I have been in business for fifty years and things have changed a lot over that time.

Personally, I don't buy from Amazon, Ebay or the internet.

I think it is unethical for people to browse stores and then buy cheaper on the internet.

But people nowadays seem to have different values, at least, many of them.

They are addicted to mobile devices.

But this is the world they choose.

I do use the internet, but mainly as I would an old fashioned letter writing forum.
I do get information from the internet but try to back it up with my own knowledge.

I was a rep for thirty years. It is a hard life, but I enjoyed it.

I fully support your decision.

Happy Holidays.

Regards,
B.
Binastro is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 23rd December 2019, 22:33   #6
quincy88
Registered User

 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Xxxxxx
Posts: 66
Sad news. Your shop sounds awesome. Good luck to you. And thanks for giving us who are strictly consumers a little window into how things are working on the retail side.
__________________
-as you were, q
quincy88 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 23rd December 2019, 22:45   #7
tenex
Registered User
 
tenex's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Colorado
Posts: 622
Many thanks for sharing this story, Jan. If I'm ever in the Netherlands, your store will be on my itinerary! I hope Leica come to their senses, and will be found there once again.

But it's a weak hope. That remark "the more we charge" really rankles me, as a longtime Leica user (cameras also). The world seems to be changing in ugly ways, following only the bottom line or the biggest ego. The signs are everywhere. One story I've followed lately in amazement is the catastrophe of the Boeing 737 Max, an airplane designed by overpaid executives and accountants instead of engineers. Any normal sense of responsibility or pride in quality seems to vanish... and society was built on that. It will be hard to restore.

Last edited by tenex : Monday 23rd December 2019 at 22:51.
tenex is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 23rd December 2019, 23:07   #8
dries1
Registered User
 
dries1's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Delaware
Posts: 1,911
Jan,

Thank you for the explanation of the Retrovids, and clarification on the decision by Leica, which in turn led to your decision.
If any company that sells higher end merchandise, has a reduction of stores where the client can actually see what he or she is buying, their sales will drop since most will opt to buy the cheaper items online.( I would think rather than spending $$$ on a higher end product). I wonder how many high end glass Amazon sells as compared to their cheaper Chinese glass.
This sort of move by Leica will only hurt them in the long run IMO, eventually their products will only be available at their own stores, and I don't think they are going to open up anymore in this era.

Regards,

Andy W.

Last edited by dries1 : Monday 23rd December 2019 at 23:42. Reason: grammer
dries1 is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2018 2019 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Monday 23rd December 2019, 23:28   #9
Steve C
Registered User
 
Steve C's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Klamath Falls, Oregon
Posts: 3,631
Jan,

Your decision, reasoning, and rationale for the decision to remove Leica are completely understandable, reasonable, and justified, in my humble opinion. I will always support people who have their values in order and are willing to stick to them.

I personally think Leica has done themselves more harm than they know, but may soon realize. I suppose we can hope they can come to their senses and move to calm the waters. I'd be pretty ticked off if I was a Leica dealer.
__________________
Steve

"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are". Teddy Roosevelt.
Steve C is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2009 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Tuesday 24th December 2019, 06:02   #10
typo
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 3,938
Welcome back Jan. It's hard to understand why Leica would undermine it's retailer's in this way.

David
typo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 24th December 2019, 07:46   #11
Troubador
Moderator
 
Troubador's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 9,672
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve C View Post
Jan,

Your decision, reasoning, and rationale for the decision to remove Leica are completely understandable, reasonable, and justified, in my humble opinion. I will always support people who have their values in order and are willing to stick to them.

I personally think Leica has done themselves more harm than they know, but may soon realize. I suppose we can hope they can come to their senses and move to calm the waters. I'd be pretty ticked off if I was a Leica dealer.
As usual Steve, you put it succinctly and accurately. I hope, against hope, that Leica come to their senses and reverse their decision.

Lee
__________________
"You are never alone, with a sheep"
Troubador is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 24th December 2019, 08:21   #12
Mike F
Registered User

 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Finland
Posts: 255
Jan,

Thanks or this full explanation of what’s going on. I now fully understand your reasons to give Leica the boot. Profit making is one thing but disrespect to a long time dealer with misinformation and even downright deception is another. I know that Leica keep an eye on this forum (or at least they did several years ago, but perhaps that’s changed?) and hopefully they will realise the degree of alienation towards themselves that they are creating by this action and line of management thinking.

All the best for continued success with your business and please do keep us informed of developments. This, sadly, is a black mark against Leica. Let’s hope that they rectify the situation.

Michael.

Leica.........?

Last edited by Mike F : Tuesday 24th December 2019 at 08:25.
Mike F is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 24th December 2019, 09:09   #13
42za
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Africa
Posts: 142
Hello Jan,

I fully understand why and what you have done.

You are SO RIGHT about the "Whizz-Bang Spreadsheet Managers".


Voorspoed , en mag die son op jou winkel skyn , (translation--Prosperity , and may the sun shine on your store).

Cheers.
42za is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 24th December 2019, 09:31   #14
Troubador
Moderator
 
Troubador's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 9,672
Quote:
Originally Posted by 42za View Post

Voorspoed , en mag die son op jou winkel skyn , (translation--Prosperity , and may the sun shine on your store).

Cheers.
Hey Boykie

That is a nice way to say it.

Lee
__________________
"You are never alone, with a sheep"
Troubador is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 24th December 2019, 09:59   #15
42za
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Africa
Posts: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubador View Post
Hey Boykie

That is a nice way to say it.

Lee
Thanks Lee,

A quote from C.J.Langenhoven:-

"O die Wereld hy draai , maak staat op sy draai
Die een dag so vriendelik , en die ander dag so kwaai".

Have a nice holliday season.

Cheers.
42za is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 24th December 2019, 10:08   #16
Kevin Conville
yardbirder
BF Supporter 2020
 
Kevin Conville's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: State of Chaos
Posts: 2,217
Thanks for the explanation Jan.
I can't add much to what's already been written in response except to say I agree with them.

Best of luck with your shop and business going forward.
__________________
my bird pics

Scott's Miracle Grow KILLING Birds, for Years!
read this: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=226714
Kevin Conville is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2018 2019 2020 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Tuesday 24th December 2019, 10:37   #17
jan van daalen
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: maarssen holland
Posts: 1,941
Quote:
Originally Posted by 42za View Post
Thanks Lee,

A quote from C.J.Langenhoven:-

"O die Wereld hy draai , maak staat op sy draai
Die een dag so vriendelik , en die ander dag so kwaai".

Have a nice holliday season.

Cheers.
Or "everything to prevent the loonies to run the asylum" a quote I received from a dear friend recently

Hi guys,

Thx for the remarks and support.

Merry Christmas for you all and your love ones.

Jan
jan van daalen is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 24th December 2019, 12:49   #18
jan van daalen
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: maarssen holland
Posts: 1,941
Quote:
Originally Posted by typo View Post
Welcome back Jan. It's hard to understand why Leica would undermine it's retailer's in this way.

David
Hi David,

I don't think you can see it as Leica as a whole.
It's their spreadsheet management that puts bonus before the well being of a company they are gonna leave in the future anyhow.
Personally I don't think for a second that the committed Leica's Sales/Marketing department and their reps worldwide are pleased with the way they were forced to go.
It's the culture clash between the department that actually respectfully handles the product they make and the "higher level" that only looks at figures.
I've witnessed the Leica loyalty of the working Force during plant visits. They are Leica. Not some hired guest with an academic degree in economics who's gonna leave anyhow.

Jan
jan van daalen is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 24th December 2019, 16:42   #19
chill6x6
Registered User
BF Supporter 2020
 
chill6x6's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Alabama
Posts: 1,535
Greeting Jan!

It's good to hear from you. I've actually tried to PM you a few times to see how things are going. You've certainly helped me with a few issues.

Enjoyed reading your explanation. Owning your own retail business while fulfilling comes with it many, many decisions to make along the way. This whole Trinovid thing has been a weird journey for sure. I was personally looking forward to calling one of the guys at Cameraland or Sports Optics and ordering the new Trinovid. Now, not going to happen. I had much prefer an independent retailer of ANYTHING vs. a company store. Retail exclusivity leads to a decrease in all things customer service and an increase in price.

The last couple of mouths I had been thinking about a new 8x30-32. Basically thinking about a Trinovid HD 8X32. Then all this came out about the new Trinovid. Long story short I am the owner of a new CL B 8x30!

There's not much you can't match or better with a Swarovski, Zeiss, or Meopta product that Leica offers. The only one IS the 7X models. Probably nothing a nice FL 8X32, SV 8X32, or CL B 8X30 can't fix.

Nice hearing from you Jan!
__________________
Chuck
chill6x6 is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2017 2018 2019 2020 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Tuesday 24th December 2019, 17:41   #20
jan van daalen
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: maarssen holland
Posts: 1,941
Quote:
Originally Posted by chill6x6 View Post
Greeting Jan!

It's good to hear from you. I've actually tried to PM you a few times to see how things are going. You've certainly helped me with a few issues.

Enjoyed reading your explanation. Owning your own retail business while fulfilling comes with it many, many decisions to make along the way. This whole Trinovid thing has been a weird journey for sure. I was personally looking forward to calling one of the guys at Cameraland or Sports Optics and ordering the new Trinovid. Now, not going to happen. I had much prefer an independent retailer of ANYTHING vs. a company store. Retail exclusivity leads to a decrease in all things customer service and an increase in price.

The last couple of mouths I had been thinking about a new 8x30-32. Basically thinking about a Trinovid HD 8X32. Then all this came out about the new Trinovid. Long story short I am the owner of a new CL B 8x30!

There's not much you can't match or better with a Swarovski, Zeiss, or Meopta product that Leica offers. The only one IS the 7X models. Probably nothing a nice FL 8X32, SV 8X32, or CL B 8X30 can't fix.

Nice hearing from you Jan!
Hi Chuck,

Long time no speak

Do we need a 7x35? No.
Do we need a Icon 35? No.
Should I want one? Absolutely!

So do yourself a favor and get one.
Believe it or not, but I'll do the same. Amsterdam (Leica store) is just 20 km from my place and after Christmas I'll walk in, get one and walk out.
It's an icon from my youth. This baby can't help her bosses sucks

Merry Christmas Chuck
jan van daalen is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th December 2019, 02:13   #21
St. Elmo
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 524
Jan,
There's an old saying among shopkeepers (which I'm sure you practice), "Business goes where it's invited." Perhaps manufacturers should take heed.
Mike
St. Elmo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th December 2019, 07:28   #22
42za
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Africa
Posts: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by jan van daalen View Post
Hi Chuck,

Long time no speak

Do we need a 7x35? No.
Do we need a Icon 35? No.
Should I want one? Absolutely!

So do yourself a favor and get one.
Believe it or not, but I'll do the same. Amsterdam (Leica store) is just 20 km from my place and after Christmas I'll walk in, get one and walk out.
It's an icon from my youth. This baby can't help her bosses sucks

Merry Christmas Chuck

Hello,

Errrrr-------If I wanted one I would have to travel 1600 Kilometers.



Seasons Greetings to All.

Cheers.
42za is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th December 2019, 10:01   #23
jan van daalen
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: maarssen holland
Posts: 1,941
Quote:
Originally Posted by St. Elmo View Post
Jan,
There's an old saying among shopkeepers (which I'm sure you practice), "Business goes where it's invited." Perhaps manufacturers should take heed.
Mike
Hi Mike,

You're right, so in this case I'll ask Gijs if he can make time to measure the transmission data and after that I'll take it apart to look inside if I can find any indication of "rice".
In the first run the Far East Uppendahls had too much sample variation.

Merry Christmas

Jan

Last edited by Troubador : Wednesday 25th December 2019 at 13:38.
jan van daalen is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th December 2019, 13:40   #24
Troubador
Moderator
 
Troubador's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 9,672
Quote:
Originally Posted by 42za View Post
Hello,

Errrrr-------If I wanted one I would have to travel 1600 Kilometers.



Seasons Greetings to All.

Cheers.
Hey Boykie, you could always buy via the internet from Leica but personally I agree with you that its always better to view and handle before you buy.

Lee
__________________
"You are never alone, with a sheep"
Troubador is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 25th December 2019, 14:36   #25
Swissboy
Registered User
BF Supporter 2020
 
Swissboy's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sempach, Switzerland
Posts: 3,728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubador View Post
Hey Boykie, you could always buy via the internet from Leica but personally I agree with you that its always better to view and handle before you buy.

Lee
And you also need to be somewhere where the binoculars make to you if they are sent. We usually take such things for granted. But even in the US, there are many places where you might not get things you ordered.
__________________
Robert
--PS: That's a Sooty Falcon on the avatar, photo taken near Sharm el Sheik, Egypt. My highest priority raptor at the time.
What's your species on the avatar? I often have no clue
!
Swissboy is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.20228696 seconds with 37 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 08:24.