Soft Focus of 7d + Canon 400mm F/5.6L (1 Viewer)

vipantonio · May 14, 2012

Hello, I'm newbie here

My Canon EOS 7D + Canon 400mm f/5.6 L BIF photos are soft.

I have read many threads, including this one, and wonder if you could tell from these pics if this is SS problem, or miss focus, or stupid photographer

?

I was shooting using One Center Point, AI-Servo mode, High burst rate, Hand-held, RAW. F/7.1, 1/800 sec, ISO 500, 400mm fixed lens mentioned before. Photo on the left is exported directly from Lightroom 4 RAW file, resized to 800px, no sharpening. Photo on the right is 100% crop while zoomed in lightroom and print-previewed, saved fom within Paint program as JPEG.

One more question: how can I check whether I definitely shot in that mode, check Focus point (CF card is already formatted). Thanks

P.S. I have some Bird In Flight photos which show similar results. Should I attach them?

lmans66 · May 14, 2012

vipantonio said:
Hello, I'm newbie here My Canon EOS 7D + Canon 400mm f/5.6 L BIF photos are soft.

I have read many threads, including this one, and wonder if you could tell from these pics if this is SS problem, or miss focus, or stupid photographer ?

I was shooting using One Center Point, AI-Servo mode, High burst rate, Hand-held, RAW. F/7.1, 1/800 sec, ISO 500, 400mm fixed lens mentioned before. Photo on the left is exported directly from Lightroom 4 RAW file, resized to 800px, no sharpening. Photo on the right is 100% crop while zoomed in lightroom and print-previewed, saved fom within Paint program as JPEG.

One more question: how can I check whether I definitely shot in that mode, check Focus point (CF card is already formatted). Thanks

P.S. I have some Bird In Flight photos which show similar results. Should I attach them?

Get closer to the bird....just because you have a zoom lens will not mean given light conditions, camera settings etc...that it will overcome distance. A small bird at a distance is just that, a small bird at a distance... jim

jimthomson · May 14, 2012

vipantonio said:
One more question: how can I check whether I definitely shot in that mode, check Focus point (CF card is already formatted).QUOTE]

You can check all of the shooting parameters in the Metadata window in Lightroom.
To check the focus point you need to use either Zoom Browser or DPP.

Since the grass in front of your bird appears to be in focus I think you may have missed your target in this shot. It is also possible that your lens and camera are front focussing.

vipantonio · May 14, 2012

lmans66 said:
Get closer to the bird....just because you have a zoom lens will not mean given light conditions, camera settings etc...that it will overcome distance. A small bird at a distance is just that, a small bird at a distance... jim

Thanks for the answers. How about this photo? 1st Cropped 50%, 2nd - zoomed to 100%. 1/1000 sec, f/6.3, ISO 400, same 400mm lens

tdodd · May 14, 2012

I have a bird of similar size in the frame shot with my 7D and 100-400 at 400mm, 1/125, f/8, 200 ISO, which would imply similar lighting levels between the shots. Certainly mine appears sharper, despite the much slower shutter speed. One thing that seems very obvious in your shot is the noise. That's certainly not helping when your subject is so small, as the noise is really affecting the tiny details. But really it could be a bit of misfocus, a bit of shake - 1/800 is not that fast for examining a 400mm shot from a 7D at 100% - maybe some atmospheric issues and, God forbid, a filter.

Anyway, here's how my broadly similar shot looks, raw, no edits. I think you will spot the difference in noise very clearly. 500 ISO is not a good choice. It is an underexposure in camera at 400 ISO followed by a 1/3 digital push to bring the brightness up to match a 500 ISO equivalent. I've also included a side by side comparison at 100% for convenience.

So, I think there is room for improvement, but I'm not sure quite what steps you need to take to close the gap, because I don't know, other than noise, what other factors are in play. Filling the frame more would go a long way to improving matters on several fronts.

vipantonio · May 14, 2012

Cashie said:
Jim is right, I think you are just too far away from the bird with a 400mm lens!

Do you really think that this particular attached photo is from too far away?

degsy_safc · May 14, 2012

To prove whether you have an issue with your camera, Stick a page of text from a magazine or newspaper to an outside wall. Make sure you have decent light and mount the camera to a tripod. Shoot the text (camera must be as close to 90 degrees to the wall as possible) at f8, which is probably the sweet spot of the lens.

Check your results on the computer, if the text is sharp and in focus you don't have an issue with the camera or lens and it is probably your technique..

The key to testing this way is that your tripod must be a good quality one, if its flimsy then the camera will move when the mirror lifts and falls (called 'mirror slap') and you will get a blurry shot.

If you don't have a tripod try resting the camera on something stable to prevent it from moving while performing the test.

If you have a focus limiter switch on the lens, check to make sure its not selected and that you are not exceeding the limit else the shot will never be in focus.

Hope this helps....

tdodd · May 14, 2012

vipantonio said:
Do you really think that this particular attached photo is from too far away?

It may well be usable, but it's not optimum. You are already starting out with a "crop" sensor, relative to full frame, and by only partially filling that little sensor with the subject and, presumably cropping in tighter still, you're not maximising the potential offered by the camera. Take it to extremes - lets say cropping to just 1/9 of the frame - and you will turn your 7D into the equivalent of a 2 megapixel point and shoot in terms of sensor area and pixel count, with a 2,000mm FOV equivalent lens waving about in front of it.

Roy C · May 14, 2012

vipantonio said:
Do you really think that this particular attached photo is from too far away?

No it is not to far away for reasonable web images, at that distance you should be getting pin sharp images with the 400/5.6 and 7D. Here are typical results I get with the 400/5.6 (hand held). I have loads more examples like this. I rarely get a shot that I do not have to crop at least 50%. The Wren shot was taken on the 40D.

Your shutter speed of 1/1000 sec should be fast enough, I am not sure what you are doing wrong.

SteveClifton · May 14, 2012

degsy_safc said:
To prove whether you have an issue with your camera, Stick a page of text from a magazine or newspaper to an outside wall. Make sure you have decent light and mount the camera to a tripod. Shoot the text (camera must be as close to 90 degrees to the wall as possible) at f8, which is probably the sweet spot of the lens.

Check your results on the computer, if the text is sharp and in focus you don't have an issue with the camera or lens and it is probably your technique..

The key to testing this way is that your tripod must be a good quality one, if its flimsy then the camera will move when the mirror lifts and falls (called 'mirror slap') and you will get a blurry shot.

If you don't have a tripod try resting the camera on something stable to prevent it from moving while performing the test.

If you have a focus limiter switch on the lens, check to make sure its not selected and that you are not exceeding the limit else the shot will never be in focus.

Hope this helps....

I agree with this to a certain extent, but if the shots are still soft it might only reveal something about the autofocus of the lens, or, more specifically, if it is working well with your camera body. If the AF is out, at least with the 7D you should be able to micro focus adjust the lens to your body. I disagree that it should be done at F8, as, everything I have read about the 400 F5.6 suggests that it is very sharp wide open, so there should be no need to stop down.

Before testing the accuracy of the AF, I would test the native sharpness of the lens by performing a manual focus test. Again, do this on a tripod, but use live view (magnified to 5x, or even better 10x) to ensure that accurate focus is possible with your particular samples of lens & body. Using live view means there will be no mirror slap to introduce vibration.

I also disagree that either bird was too far away to get sharp shots. It's more likely down to technique (not holding the lens steady enough for the shutter speed) or in the case of the stork, you seem to have the main point of focus behind the bird. It's easy to blame the gear, but at least by testing the lens as described above you can eliminate that possibility first.

edit; should have added that you should use the 2 second self timer when performing the manual focus sharpness test in live view.

Roy C · May 14, 2012

SteveClifton said:
I also disagree that either bird was too far away to get sharp shots. It's more likely down to technique (not holding the lens steady enough for the shutter speed) or in the case of the stork, you seem to have the main point of focus behind the bird. It's easy to blame the gear, but at least by testing the lens as described above you can eliminate that possibility first.

I agree with Steve 100% here.

vipantonio · May 14, 2012

Huge thanks for all of you, guys, really appreciate it. Definitely not using any filters here

Can I believe in those photos that Micro Adjustment +2 gives significantly better results? (since I have only that kind of scratchy wall against my balcony). Or should I stick to testing the Text in front of a wall (but this gonna be next day, since it is late now here in Lithuania)

SteveClifton · May 14, 2012

vipantonio said:
Huge thanks for all of you, guys, really appreciate it. Definitely not using any filters here

Can I believe in those photos that Micro Adjustment +2 gives significantly better results? (since I have only that kind of scratchy wall against my balcony). Or should I stick to testing the Text in front of a wall (but this gonna be next day, since it is late now here in Lithuania)

I'll be honest and say I don't see a huge difference between these two, but then the subject matter is such that it is difficult to see if it is really sharp or not, because of the texture of the wall. Also, are these using MF or AF?

Personally I find using a £10 note (or similar) more easy to judge true sharpness. + or -2 isn't that much micro adjustment either, so I wouldn't expect to see a huge difference, even with large crops. I've heard of some lenses needing + or -8 (or more) to sort out a mis-match between lens and body.

Once you have done the manual focus test using live view, you can test AF by switching off live view, manually moving the focus ring on the lens to make it out of focus, then half press the shutter (or back button if that's the method you use) to activate AF. Do this at least 2 or 3 times (and preferably at different distances from the subject i.e. near and far away, but always aimed at the same part of the subject). Then review the images on your camera screen and compare them (fully zoomed in) by toggling between each shot. If there is a noticeable difference between the MF and AF shots, you will then know that you need to make further micro focus adjustments.

jimthomson · May 14, 2012

SteveClifton said:
I disagree that it should be done at F8, as, everything I have read about the 400 F5.6 suggests that it is very sharp wide open, so there should be no need to stop down.

The lens is sharp at f5.6 but it does improve slightly at f8

http://www.photozone.de/canon-eos/173-canon-ef-400mm-f56-usm-l-lab-test-report--review?start=1

That said I generally shoot it wide open

Froggy · May 14, 2012

Agree about the no need to stop down really , mine is razor sharp wide open .
I can see a difference with the MFA applied .
Don't have a problem hand-holding this lens at 1/1000 at all .

Do the bank note test as suggested , make sure you hit the note under the focus point .
Make sure it locks on properly , do not have the focus limiter engaged !

Keep at it Antonio , you will resolve this I am sure .

redeyedvideo · May 14, 2012

Here is a shot taken under very similar conditions as your stork using the same camera & lens. Neither have sharpening or manipulation whatsoever and the second image is a crop of the first. It was taken at 1000/sec 6.3 @ ISO320 hand held. Your +2 shot looks shaper to my eyes and I would practice using a tripod & the suggestions above.

I'm wondering if the light conditions were not good enough for the shutter speed as there's lots of noise there which shouldn't be that bad at ISO400. Let us know how you get on with the tests.

degsy_safc · May 14, 2012

vipantonio said:
Huge thanks for all of you, guys, really appreciate it. Definitely not using any filters here

Can I believe in those photos that Micro Adjustment +2 gives significantly better results? (since I have only that kind of scratchy wall against my balcony). Or should I stick to testing the Text in front of a wall (but this gonna be next day, since it is late now here in Lithuania)

Forget shooting brickwork - use the text, doesn't have to be against a wall a door will do. Or anything to keep it perpendicular to the camera sensor. You need plenty of light as you want your shutter speed high enough to eliminate motion blur - I cannot stress enough the tripod must be robust and up to the job of keeping the camera stable.

I can understand what Steve is saying in testing MF first - but that again will be subject to you interpreting the image in live view to achieve a perfectly focussed image.

Personally i'd stick with the camera in AF - In most cases the issue is not the equipment but rather technique of the user. It's literally a 2 min test. Get the text on the wall / door, aperture at f8 and take the shot or a burst of shots - if the text is sharp - its not the camera / lens its something else..

If the text is not sharp then you can start eliminating whether its the body or the lens using similar tests - but let us know the answer to the AF test of text on a wall first.....

degsy_safc · May 14, 2012

SteveClifton said:
I agree with this to a certain extent, but if the shots are still soft it might only reveal something about the autofocus of the lens, or, more specifically, if it is working well with your camera body. If the AF is out, at least with the 7D you should be able to micro focus adjust the lens to your body. I disagree that it should be done at F8, as, everything I have read about the 400 F5.6 suggests that it is very sharp wide open, so there should be no need to stop down.

Steve - The OP needs to eliminate whether there is an issue with the camera / lens or not. The fastest way to do this is to do the AF test first, its a 2 minute job, plus there is no added manual element in the equation. If the text is sharp - its not the camera, job done.

Additionally the test is not only proving AF of the lens - its proving AF of the lens and the AF sensors in the camera - the only way to physically prove lens or camera is to do the same test with a different lens. MF relys on the operator and to be honest there is no baseline to measure against unlike the AF module in the camera, what your eyes think is bang on may not be the same as the next person.

Regarding stopping down, as you are probably aware, every lens has a sweet spot and it is never 'wide open' stopping down to f8 will help achieve a proper result.

Anyway - OP asked for help and i gave it, hope it works out for them...

GYRob · May 14, 2012

It looks like a mixture of heat haze, high iso, to far away and to slow a shutter speed to me .
Each of these will lose a bit of detail on there own and all of these togather will just give a record shot .
Rob.

robinsslee · May 15, 2012

vipantonio, it looks to me that your lens is either front or back focus, try your MA to correct it. Also if possible, get nearer to the birds

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