TWiCE as Many Birds ! ? (1 Viewer)

Surreybirder

Ken Noble

• Jul 20, 2003

• #21

Chuck A Wulla said:

Not for me thanks. As a novice I'm having enough problems with the adults. Charles and Co. were good enough to help me out with a coot chick but no mas. BTW, is there a guide for chicks? Er. . . bird chicks that is.

bob

Click to expand...

There's an old Collins guide to nests and eggs which shows many 'chicks' too, I seem to recall. No idea what the situation is in North America. Of course, you can often ID juvs because they are with their parents (or at least one of them) :bounce:

 

M

Malvolio

Well-known member

• Jul 20, 2003

• #22

"Knot, Sanderling & Barwit??

Sure these weren't first-summer immatures? (do they count?)"

The wings and tail are still juvenile in these birds at this age but the body plumage will have been replaced...so maybe half a tick.

MV

 

S

StevieEvans

Well-known member

• Jul 20, 2003

• #23

Hello Michael

Had a juvvy Curlew sand on 10th July this year, i think they breed a lot further away from us than Bar tail godwit. (Arctic Siberia as opposed to Northern Finland)

The Barwit, im 100% certain of.

Im no wader expert, but the Sanderling was completely different to the other six adults it was with, i thought it was a Little stint (black & white contrast) untill it was obviiously same ssp as its companions.

The Knot, im knot so sure of ! now ive looked at books, it did look scaly, but again the 5 adults it was with all looked different to one another.

So, i think i'll "keep" the Bwit & check again when we get some more of the others down.

*
I've allways enjoyed confirming successful breeding at a site by noting juv's, BUT when you start looking at birds you dont see every day, then it realy is a case of 'twice as many birds'...to identify!

S

 

birdman

Орнитол&

• Jul 20, 2003

• #24

Sorry for the tardy reply, Michael - thanks for putting me right re immature etc. above.

:t:

 

M

Malvolio

Well-known member

• Jul 20, 2003

• #25

I've personally never seen a Juv. Curlew sand before the last week of August. The breeding grounds are not free of snow and Ice much before the middle of June (and that's in a good year) so on the face of things the idea of a juv on 10 July anywhere in the world seems remarkable.

Same goes for Barwit really.

What ageing criteria did you use Steveiwol?

MV

 

Michael Frankis

conehead

• Jul 20, 2003

• #26

Hi Stevie,

Hope I'm not sounding too argumentative, but I gotta agree with MV on this - I've been checking the Northumberland & Tyneside Bird Club annual reports for the last 10 years - the earliest date for a juv Curlew Sand here is 17th August (1996), and the average more like 20th-25th Aug. BWP gives similar dates, too.

It is only just in the last few days that I've seen any juvenile Dunlins, and they're probably local-bred on the Northumbrian moors, not coming several thousand miles from the Taimyr.

Worth remembering that several waders – including Sanderling, Curlew Sand, Spotshank and Barwit – have a fair degree of breeding plumage sexual dimorphism, with females much dowdier than males. Several of the popular field guides skim over this rather scantily, so it perhaps isn't as well-known as it should be.

So perhaps what you're seeing is the difference between males and females?

Barwit and Knot also both have first-summer plumage pretty similar to adult winter; first summers of Curlew Sand and Sanderling are much more like adult summer (only distinguishable at close range).

Michael

 

S

StevieEvans

Well-known member

• Jul 20, 2003

• #27

MV / MF / all

My supper has just arrived from the Curry house. Will reply later.

BUT......having read your replies, i think i Have a LOT TO LEARN here, hope we can cont this later

Cheers

Stevie
(mmmm my curry doesnt taste quite as good as usual, i think ive dropped some clangers with my waders, still God loves a try-er, its back to the conifer woods for me i think...... what an idiot Steven...)

 

Last edited: Jul 20, 2003

M

Malvolio

Well-known member

• Jul 20, 2003

• #28

Gotta disagree with Michael's view that Curlew Sands attain a bright breeding plumage during their first spring moult - most don't, they grow new body plumage of a winter type pattern. Also adult females are only slightly duller than males, tending to show some white around the throat and to have more barring on the very slightly paler breast and belly.

Toatally agree about barwit females being duller than males though - in fact most do not develop any red body plumage so the stunning adult summers are always males. Females in summer look like they're still in winter plumage and are only distinguishable from first-summers due to the more heavily worn juvenile flight feathers of the latter (juvenile feathers are always of an inferior quality to those of adults - partly due to the fact that they all have to be grown simulataneously whereas adults have a staggered moult in which more energy can be put into growing feathers of a more resilient quality).

MV

 

Michael Frankis

conehead

• Jul 20, 2003

• #29

Hi MV,

Thanks for the clarification on Curly Sands!

Michael

 

S

StevieEvans

Well-known member

• Jul 21, 2003

• #30

Hi
I think its going to be to MY best advantage to do some reading up & study of my own before i start to ask advice on where i've gone wrong.

*Ive got to say though i would have bet my life on that Curlew sand being a juvenile. Ive got a few books out, but the picture of the (fresh juv) Curl.sand on page 141 of Collins Bird Guide 1999, is my bird exactly.

Im glad that i dont bet very often nowadays...!

S

 

Surreybirder

Ken Noble

• Jul 21, 2003

• #31

Juv knots are very distinctive with their lovely peachy wash on the underparts!