The UK and optics prices (1 Viewer)

paddy7 · Aug 24, 2017

All good - thanks for the responses, although i'm not sure if you couldn't spring for a Swarovision 8x42 the Companion CL would be the alternative choice - you never know though...
Nikon have always seemed to be the kings of 'you want it - we've got it' manufacturers, that's true enough.
I think perhaps Swarovski are the company that might still be missing a trick here.
The reason why I'm singling out the UK market, even though i suspect products may be very expensive elsewhere (perhaps E. Europe, as Jos pointed out, and i believe Australia), is the sheer concentration of birders in such a small country. Well over 1 million RSPB members, around 50% of the country feeding birds through the winter etc. BirdFair always attracts huge attendances, and if you're prepared to drive a bit, most folks can get to a reasonable optics retailer. There are also plenty of periodicals where advertising space can be taken - RSPB, BTO, birdwatching mags, National Trust etc. and reserves providing retail outlets.
The market is big and easily reached; i got an email to my phone just now announcing the new Zeiss scope being available from January, for example....Opticron seems to be particularly active with its marketing strategy, and i hope do well as a result.

Troubador · Aug 24, 2017

Patudo said:
I love the way some Americans spit out the word "socialism" like it's a pejorative. The fact is that the UK is one of, if not the least, socialistic of the EU member states; and a pretty large proportion of the country would consider that the wholesale and uncritical (at least by our craven decision-makers and politicians) importation of devil take the hindmost capitalism direct from Wall Street has contributed more by far to the country's ills than any attempts at socialism (which are generally well thought of here). Germany operates on a more socialist basis than the UK and has its own issues but is a very successful country, and not just economically.

Second tier and even third tier binoculars from alpha brands aren't something new - Zeiss had its Diafuns and Swarovski, if I remember rightly, used to produce a series called "Falke" that were a step down from the Habicht range. I would guess that the tier(s) below "alpha" class have always made up the great majority of binocular sales, even to birders. (Edit: I have just checked a survey in British Birds magazine from 1983 and only 24.7% of 671 respondents - probably a more dedicated group of birders than most - owned the alphas of the day). It seems the competition in the tier below is hotter than ever before and that is very much a good thing. There are binoculars that offer probably 90 to 95% the performance of say a Zeiss SF at half the price or less; you could argue that's not a bad bargain.

Patudo

I agree, but be beware how some Americans use the term socialist as many of them only know it from the name National Socialist Party ie the Nazi party of WWII which of course was as right-wing as you can get. No wonder they get confused.

Lee

Troubador · Aug 24, 2017

paddy7 said:
All good - thanks for the responses, although i'm not sure if you couldn't spring for a Swarovision 8x42 the Companion CL would be the alternative choice - you never know though...

LOL. You are right there but the point is Swarovski has dipped its toe into a different price segment in the market.

Lee

Maljunulo · Aug 24, 2017

Binastro said:
Most countries currency devalues with time.
All are printing money.
Sometimes other countries like N.K. help it along by printing other countries notes.
Plus home grown fakes.

My friends abroad used to ask me how much a pound of roubles were worth.

Look at Turkey. I think a million became one new unit eventually.

Some cases have been billions to one.

In addition there is a hidden inflation. It used to be about 2.5% here, but probably less now with such low interest rates.

Then we had Harold Wilson promising us that the pound in our pockets was the same after 14% devaluation.

I remember 4 dollars to a pound possibly even 5? Then $2.80. $2.40. Sometimes near parity.

After WW2 we were nearly bankrupt.

My first wage was £6 a week.

Currencies are traded on a daily basis with fluctuating values. Sometimes these are rigged by dealers or by a countries rulers.

Incidentally, I think that few binoculars keep a value in line with inflation. Eventually one loses. Even if one gets a binocular free, it has to be stored and looked after, which costs money over time.

I suppose the best things are free like fresh air, but even that is becoming hard to find.

It has always struck me as absurd that one piece of paper is worth more than another simply because it has a bigger number printed on it.

Binastro · Aug 24, 2017

I was told that in the early 20th century, roubles, which came in rolls were used as wallpaper.
I suppose any denomination worked, although the higher numbers maybe impressed the neighbours better.

Strontium Dog · Aug 24, 2017

Maljunulo said:
It has always struck me as absurd that one piece of paper is worth more than another simply because it has a bigger number printed on it.

On one level it is absurd - after all, it's just a piece of paper - but it's much more about what that piece of paper represents than any intrinsic value of the materials. Money is just a store of value, which works because people have faith in it. In the case of the pound sterling, that faith has been shaken somewhat recently, which is why its value has plummeted by a quarter in the last year.

Most money, of course, only exists as 1s and 0s in computers, which is even less tangible than a banknote.

Troubador · Aug 24, 2017

Maljunulo said:
It has always struck me as absurd that one piece of paper is worth more than another simply because it has a bigger number printed on it.

Paper and coin money represent how much we trust each other to exchange goods and services to the value mentioned on the money. The paper and coins don't mean so much in and of themselves but the trust that they represent does indeed have a real value.

Lee

Binastro · Aug 24, 2017

I thought that paper money was paper. But a friend said that they are made of cotton, with perhaps linen or other textiles.
Being replaced here with plastic of some kind.

Years ago I found a very large 2 penny piece in our garden, maybe 1700s, on what was previously a brick factory.
I had cufflinks made of Roman coins, which were so numerous as to be worth very little.

Some time ago I asked here what is the largest price paid for a binocular, maybe at auction, but nobody replied.
Binoculars seem to be the poor brothers of photo equipment.

Maljunulo · Aug 24, 2017

I don't know about auctions, but Nikon has just come out with two astronomical binoculars which hover around $6,000 US. Street price may drift downward from that ........... or not.

Binastro · Aug 24, 2017

I really mean a collectable binocular. Which can keep up with or exceed inflation.

With cameras they can be 6 or even 7 figure sums.

The new Nikons are unlikely to keep up with inflation long term.

The most expensive civilian binoculars may be the APM-LZOS 12 inch aperture (304mm f/7.5). Perhaps $300,000?
Weight 2000 kg.

This is still less than the 2 Leica cameras sold at ~ $2m each.

Wayland · Sep 1, 2017

I think a lot of these companies are simply trying it on and economics has nothing to do with it. For example, around 10 years ago a pair of Swarovski EL 10x42 bins were priced just under £1000; about £970 I recall. The same product now is £1500. A more recent example, a pair of Zeiss Conquests were £550 2 years ago. The exact same bins in the same shop are now £685.

A similar thing happened with Gibson guitars. Several years ago they vastly inflated their prices, almost overnight, knowing full well that people will still buy them as their desirability is undiminished - even augmented by the price hike. If you want a Les Paul bad enough, nothing else will do. Whether it's £1000 or £2000 is mostly academic. If you want a pair of Victory SFs or an STX 95 the same applies.

Binastro · Sep 1, 2017

With Zeiss Conquest HDs they have gone up with the devaluation of the pound.

Brexit has to be paid for whatever one's personal views on the matter.

However, a firm may then reduce the price if sales slip too much. Tooling costs have probably been paid for so the unit price may come down.

Taxboy · Sep 2, 2017

Wayland said:
I think a lot of these companies are simply trying it on and economics has nothing to do with it. For example, around 10 years ago a pair of Swarovski EL 10x42 bins were priced just under £1000; about £970 I recall. The same product now is £1500. A more recent example, a pair of Zeiss Conquests were £550 2 years ago. The exact same bins in the same shop are now £685.

A similar thing happened with Gibson guitars. Several years ago they vastly inflated their prices, almost overnight, knowing full well that people will still buy them as their desirability is undiminished - even augmented by the price hike. If you want a Les Paul bad enough, nothing else will do. Whether it's £1000 or £2000 is mostly academic. If you want a pair of Victory SFs or an STX 95 the same applies.

Yes but part of the increase will be due to inflation. According to the site I checked UK inflation was about 32% from 2007 to current date so IF items mirrored that trend the EL should be about £1320 currently. However pricing is far more complex than that with a number of factors involved e.g. profit margin needed, currency movements, market positioning, competitors pricing etc.

At the end of the day the consumer is the ultimate judge for discretionary purchases such as bins. If they're too expensive your sales will drop in that market. Alternatively other markets may be booming and the UK isn't significant enough to force a price adjustment

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Dorian Gray · Sep 2, 2017

The prices of almost all fine, well-made things are increasing strongly as the disposable wealth of a significant group of people increases unabated (even as the majority of people in rich countries tighten their belts) and knowledge of the marginal benefits of ultra-high-end products becomes better known (thanks to the internet, etc.).

Although I’m British, I live in France and earn my (modest) income here, so the falling pound allows me to buy products from British shops before they adjust prices. For example, I just got a Nikon 8x32 HG L for £599 from Clifton Cameras. That was just €654 on the day I bought them.

Troubador · Sep 3, 2017

Wayland said:
I think a lot of these companies are simply trying it on and economics has nothing to do with it. For example, around 10 years ago a pair of Swarovski EL 10x42 bins were priced just under £1000; about £970 I recall. The same product now is £1500. A more recent example, a pair of Zeiss Conquests were £550 2 years ago. The exact same bins in the same shop are now £685.

A similar thing happened with Gibson guitars. Several years ago they vastly inflated their prices, almost overnight, knowing full well that people will still buy them as their desirability is undiminished - even augmented by the price hike. If you want a Les Paul bad enough, nothing else will do. Whether it's £1000 or £2000 is mostly academic. If you want a pair of Victory SFs or an STX 95 the same applies.

Unfortunately economics does play an important part in this, with price inflation and shifting exchange rates all influential.

As for Gibsons, the only direction the price of mahogany has had for years has been up and up and up and a Les Paul is mostly this wood.

Lee

paddy7 · Sep 3, 2017

Some of it may be accountable by folks willing to pay a premium for gear that remains true to its roots, still owned and manufactured by the same company in the same place.
It's not just optics companies that tend to establish a market for themselves, perhaps based on good quality and reasonable price, before selling out, with the new owners shipping production somewhere cheaper (and we know where that is), but continuing to make a killing based on the previous reputation until the 'new reality' kicks in.
I've been amazed recently to find how many walking boots (many from 'good' names) are now assembled in the Far East, with many former fans nostalgic for the good old days....
So perhaps, you have to accept a little 'authenticity tax'

Wayland · Sep 3, 2017

Some interesting points there, however, I still think optics prices are being hiked because they know they can get away with it. I see plenty of other, more low-end products in other fields which have not gone up in price, even come down in some cases. The optic price rises seem disproportionate. I think Dorian Gray's comment about disposable wealth summed it up nicely.

Taxboy · Sep 4, 2017

Wayland said:
Some interesting points there, however, I still think optics prices are being hiked because they know they can get away with it. I see plenty of other, more low-end products in other fields which have not gone up in price, even come down in some cases. The optic price rises seem disproportionate. I think Dorian Gray's comment about disposable wealth summed it up nicely.

I think you may have answered your own question here to a degree. Low end items are generally sold on price so there is competition to have the lowest price which may even result in falling prices. High end items trade on their desirability and to a point exclusiveness

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Troubador · Sep 4, 2017

Wayland said:
Some interesting points there, however, I still think optics prices are being hiked because they know they can get away with it. I see plenty of other, more low-end products in other fields which have not gone up in price, even come down in some cases. The optic price rises seem disproportionate. I think Dorian Gray's comment about disposable wealth summed it up nicely.

Optics prices may indeed be out of step with other products but until you analyse the levels of inflation for the raw materials used in optics, not to mention staff salaries you are guessing, or at least expressing your own dissatisfaction. Most optics companies have wholly owned subsidiaries in many countries around the world and some have more than one service centre. Where does the money for the salaries and rents and electricity come from?

And pricing is rarely about cost of production plus a certain percentage profit (although it should be remembered that profits need to be made at factories, local companies and at dealers) but usually also takes into consideration the performance or rarity or desirability of the product.

If customers like a product and feel comfortable with the price (ignoring the fact that if asked we would all say yes we would like everything cheaper) then the product will sell, and I am not sure that this is 'getting away' with anything or 'trying it on'.

Lee

paddy7 · Sep 5, 2017

Putting on the devil's advocate hat for a moment (a black fedora, i think): you can take into account the R and D side which has led to innovations others will later adopt and the (usually) emphasised after-sales, bigger marketing budgets, presence at trade shows, sponsorships etc. all on the 'outgoings' side.
We also have the disposable income within certain sectors of the population, the prestige factor of simply being seen with an alpha, a (perhaps smaller) obsessive group who have to own what is currently seen as the best, and a very weak pound...
I still wonder how far the parameters can be pushed however. When i spent £2000 on my Kowa 883, it was preceded by at least a week of pacing, mumbling to myself, night-sweats, nightmares of some Gollum-like creature that resembled me, living in a cave and clutching 'my precious...'
What is around £3000 for the new Zeiss scope gonna do?

The UK and optics prices (1 Viewer)

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