• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Sparrowhawks responsible for House Sparrow decline says scientist (1 Viewer)

Mike Price – You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I value your contribution to the discussion, although I disagree with the thrust of your argument. Like politics, science is the art of the possible, and if we can’t measure a variable we can’t test its possible significance. It’s perfectly valid to express an opinion that nest sites or food availability are the cause of House Sparrow declines, but it isn’t an opinion based on science if those variables can't be quantified. By the way, I don’t know who peer reviewed the paper, as it was done by four anonymous referees, and I wrote it in collaboration with well-respected ornithologists from the BTO and Cambridge University – I myself am neither professional nor recognised!

Imans66 – The House Sparrow is indeed declining across much of its range, and I touch on this in the paper's discussion. In North America Sparrow declines have coincided with movement into urban areas of small bird-hunting raptors like Merlins and Sharp-Shinned Hawks, and a similar pattern is emerging in Australia with the Collared Sparrowhawk. Meanwhile in Europe, Eurasian Sparrowhawks have rebounded much more slowly in the East, where organochlorines continued to be used well after their withdrawal in the west, and Sparrows remain common in most Eastern European cities.

Boy Wonder – thanks for posting the link to the recent Journal of Applied Ecology paper showing an apparent absence of predator effects on a range of species, including the House Sparrow. I have a number of issues with the approach used by the authors, but they are statistical so not really suitable for discussion here. Suffice to say I think a different approach might have produced a very different result.

Gropperwinch – Yes, our analysis does indicate that Sparrowhawk incidence can explain practically all of the population variance that accounts in aggregate for the decline, and that there is no evidence of Sparrow decline in times/places where Sparrowhawks are absent. As I mentioned in an earlier post, many would agree that Sparrows have become more shy since the decline, and one could argue that this is contributing to their incipient recovery despite the continued presence of Sparrowhawks. However as Mike pointed out, there is no objective scientific evidence of this. The correlation between Sparrowhawk increase and decrease in other farmland birds has the same status as that for the House Sparrow before our study was carried out – there is a broad overall correlation, but it could well be coincidental. I’m hoping to apply the same methodology as used for the Sparrow study to a wider range of farmland species to see whether a similar result emerges.

Abi107 – I think Ireland is pretty much terra incognita so far as the Sparrow issue is concerned, although Denis Summers-Smith has quoted a decline in Dublin several times. If anyone knows of any Irish studies I would be interested to see them.
 
Mike Price – You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I value your contribution to the discussion, although I disagree with the thrust of your argument. Like politics, science is the art of the possible, and if we can’t measure a variable we can’t test its possible significance. It’s perfectly valid to express an opinion that nest sites or food availability are the cause of House Sparrow declines, but it isn’t an opinion based on science if those variables can't be quantified. By the way, I don’t know who peer reviewed the paper, as it was done by four anonymous referees, and I wrote it in collaboration with well-respected ornithologists from the BTO and Cambridge University – I myself am neither professional nor recognised!

My mistake I always thought science was the about fact not assumptions, working upon the possible is the starting point, proving the fact taking into account ALL the variables is science to me.

Could you tell me what study was done on House Sparrows that have declined in other countries? How did the Sparrowhawks effect them?

Conducting a study on the effects of window collisions or car collision in the same way (ignoring all of variables) would surely make the outcome point to those as being the reason.

I am sorry I still don't understand viability of the any paper that can't take into account all of the actions that make an effect on the outcome.

Forgive me if it is something to do with my lack of knowledge but I just don't understand.
 
"Scientists say"...... meh.
...
Prey and predator, sparrowhawk and sparrow have co-existed for millenia, but suddenly, according to the study, sparrows are being wiped out by sparrowhawks? Nah.

So why aren't other prey species also showing a similar crash, blue tit, starling etc,? I dont pretend to know what's causing the disappearance of the house sparrow but I think this study in barmy.

Purely anecdotal, but when we moved to Catford in S E London in the early 50's, sparrowhawks were certainly around according to my old man and sparrows were ten a penny. He said that when he viewed the house for the first time he was amazed to see a sparrowhawk on the concrete washing pole, plucking a blue tit, something he witnessed several times thereafter. Not something I can attest to because I was too young and spraws were virtually eradicated by the time I was interested in birds, circa the mid 60's, thanks to the DDT debacle.
 
Mike – The point is that if you don’t have any facts to work with, then all you have is assumptions, and nest sites are a case in point. Sure, there have been changes in property design, but we can’t put ourselves in the head of a Sparrow and count all the possible nest sites in a location, so we are simply left with an assumption that because there is say, more cavity wall insulation, there must be fewer nest sites available.

If it were possible to quantify car collisions, find a statistical correlation with House Sparrow decline, and rule out spurious correlation and confounding variables, then yes, it would point to this being the cause. For most variables however, there simply is no correlation, so even a study that ignores everything else would not suggest that they were causal. Conversely, taking account of all possible variables is quite a tall order. Even if many variables were factored into a study – say, nest sites, food availability, weather conditions and competitors, you could still dismiss the results on the grounds that disease, parasites and habitat had not been taken into account, or that certain aspects of weather or food availability had not been accounted for properly.

The references for declines outside the UK are in paper’s citation list, but a good summary discussion can be found in Ted Anderson’s House Sparrow monograph(The Biology of the Ubiquitous Sparrow), especially for North America.

Finally – there’s no need to worry about not understanding. The BTO and RSPB agree with you 100% on the issue of accounting for other variables – see the discussion thread here. However I would point out that applying this argument consistently, the outcome of every study ever carried out will be ‘more research needed’. All good if you happen to be a professional researcher!

Anyway, I’m off down the pub.
 
Note the 'Similar Threads' on BF down at the bottom of this page from the past.

Can't see anything wrong with questions being researched, it would probably take a huge study to try and look at the whole picture at once, and the 'puzzle' has to be looked at a piece at a time to get the whole picture. But it is perhaps why headlines such as the one in the Mail which this thread are about are particularly unhelpful (Soaring sparrowhawk population 'leads to shock decline in humble sparrow').

Edit: cross-posted with Chris above, essentially saying the same thing wrt looking at all the factors at once?
 
Last edited:
having read all this, maybe you have a point, although I don't believe two species which have co-existed for so long will have any long-term effects on each other, a rise in Sprawks might be responsible for a partial decline in House Sparrows, but I belive any serious decline would have to involve something far deeper and out of tune with nature, so to speak.

And Christopher, all the best with your publications, but next time you go to a newspaper with a potentially emotive story avoid the mail. They'll blow it out of proportion and sane people will never take you seriously, even if the report is 100% accurate. Stupid I know but we are only human;)
 
.... it indicated that House Sparrow numbers were generally stable or increasing prior to recolonization by Eurasian Sparrowhawks but declined continuously afterward. We also detected a significantly greater decrease in House Sparrow numbers when Eurasian Sparrowhawks were present using a method that compared annual changes in the abundance of prey species in the presence or absence of a predator.

.... On the basis of these results, we argue that predation by Eurasian Sparrowhawks may be a sufficient explanation for the decline in House Sparrows in Britain. .

A study which fails to take into account other factors that have widely been considered responsible for House Sparrow decline is hardly serious. A correlation alone between the increase in one species and the decrease in another proves nothing regarding cause.

To take an extreme example, here in Lithuania, I could probably produce a reasonably close correlation between the rise in Great White Egret numbers in the country and an increase in the number of cars in the nation, both having mushroomed in the last decade and a half. However, regardless of an apparent match, it would be fanciful to actually make the leap to suggest one is responsible for the other.

Likewise, with the Sparrowhawk-House Sparrow relationship - unless a casual link is shown, unless other variables are also considered, the paper essentially just outlines two facts already widely known (Sparrowhawk populations recovering, House Sparrows declining), no link between the two can realisitically be concluded.
 
Likewise, with the Sparrowhawk-House Sparrow relationship - unless a casual link is shown, unless other variables are also considered, the paper essentially just outlines two facts already widely known (Sparrowhawk populations recovering, House Sparrows declining), no link between the two can realisitically be concluded.

Nothing wrong with that. What's "widely known" among the armchair crowd isn't worth a sneeze until it's explored rigorously. Most of science is about proposing models to explain natural phenomena, and the quantitative/statistical analysis of fitting those models to the data. It isn't about proclaiming The Final Word on all angles of a subject in a single paper/study.
 
How can anyone say that Urban Sparrows are not as used to predators when they have to dodge domestic cats, Magpies, Crows, Jackdaws and Kestrels?

I am not sure why we have less Sparrows where I live but there are not many Sparrowhawks visiting this built up area. Could it be the competition for food from Starlings and Feral Pigeons. The Feral Pigeons would chase off Starlings and Sparrows. There are also a number of cats around.

There has been an increase in many predators over the last 30 years such as Grey Squirrel, Magpie, Carrion Crow and probably more domestic cats as well as increasing Sparrowhawk numbers. I do believe before nature adapts to those changes there will be some rocky roads and some speces could suffer declines. Thats the thing. SOME species are declining and some are increasing.
 
Most of science is about proposing models to explain natural phenomena, and the quantitative/statistical analysis of fitting those models to the data. It isn't about proclaiming The Final Word on all angles of a subject in a single paper/study.

Science to be of any consequence however would look at more than a single factor in a system before concluding that the one variable they looked at was responsible for an observed change, especially when other studies have shown other factors to be of importance.

Also, though the authors of the paper are not responsible for the subsequent reporting by the Daily Mail, the headline 'Soaring sparrowhawk population leads to shock decline in humble sparrow' portrays the issue as fact - clearly it is not so and (though we can expect little else from the Daily Mail) as such is irresponsible, merely adding extra kindling to the anti-raptor groups.


I have only read the abstract, but would also hope they have some supporting data to the conclusion that 'urban House Sparrow populations' long-term release from predator pressure made them especially vulnerable when urban habitats were colonized by Eurasian Sparrowhawks'. What evidence is there for this?
 
Last edited:
Kentbloke – Your Catford anecdote is germane to the discussion. Sparrowhawk populations were indeed at a historical high in the post-war period because of the decline of ‘keepering during the war itself. There were breeding attempts on Hampstead Heath and Holland Park, but they didn’t get as far as establishing themselves in the central London parks as happened in the early 1990s. You also ask why other species are not declining – but they are! Not Blue Tit, but Starling yes, along with a whole range of other species. Also, Bkrownd does have a point: House Sparrows are still one of the commonest species in Britain. They haven’t been ‘wiped out’, simply reduced to a level of abundance more in line with that of many other species.

Dantheman – Yes, I agree that taking ‘all’ factors into account would be impractical, but the more important point is that many potentially influential variables simply cannot be quantified. The argument that a conclusion is invalid because it fails to account for unmeasurable variable ‘x’ is tantamount to saying that a problem cannot be addressed scientifically.

Himalaya – It is true that there have always been cats in urban areas, and Kestrels have been urban breeders in Britain since at least the 1960s, but the threat from Sparrowhawks is of a different order, since they are specialist bird predators. Kestrels will take Sparrows if they can, but they are much less adept than Sparrowhawks because they are basically mousers.

Jos Stratford – You would be right to be sceptical if all we had done was demonstrate a broad correlation between prey and predator, but we did much more than this. One one level our paper is an in depth interrogation of the very question your raise – Is the negative correlation between Sparrows and Sparrowhawks a spurious correlation? We demonstrate differences in Sparrow population trends in urban and rural habitats and in different regions of Britain, and show that these differences can be explained by parallel variation in Sparrowhawk population trends. We also demonstrate that variation in the timing of House Sparrow decline among 200+ Garden Bird Feeding Survey sites can be explained by variation in the timing of Sparrowhawk appearence in the same sites. We also show that between year variation in Sparrow abundance across the whole sample is more negative when Sparrowhawk is present than when it is absent, and that the difference produces precisely the observed trajectory of decline.

Also, to be fair, the full quote from the abstract is “We argue that urban House Sparrows populations’ long-term release from predator pressure made them especially vulnerable when urban habitats were colonized by Eurasian Sparrowhawks.’ We don’t claim we have evidence for this, but put it forward as a hypothesis in the paper’s discussion. Importantly, it’s a hypothesis that could easily be tested by observational and experimental studies on Sparrow populations in cities with and without Sparrowhawks/Sparrow declines, but don’t hold your breath for the professionals to sanction funding for such a study. In the meantime, we are stuck with anecdote: For instance, when was the last time anyone saw this in London?

With respect to the ‘other variables’ issue, the quality of evidence we have presented in the paper far exceeds that produced for the significance of any of the other putative causes. Perhaps we can discuss one or two of these alternative ideas? Which ones do you favour?
 
As somebody who studied mathematical modelling and statistics at university, I suppose I should be in a better position than most to understand your research.
The nearest I got this kind of thing was doing a predator prey assignment, think it was Snowy Owls and Lemmings.

Admittedly reading through your study it seems a convincing model to me.

It appears that sparrows in London were vastly over inflated and are now being restored to a more natural level. It appears they were becoming almost domesticated? Think something on BF was posted that showed a certain type of fox in Russia could be domesticated within a few generations.

I'm very passionate about our green spaces. The fact that in order for all our animals and birds to exist in near natural state we need to plant more native plants in our gardens. Stop paving over and concreting over everything. More natural traditional farming methods etc. etc.
Then our ecosystem can thrive with ALL species as near as nature intended.
If we don't work at providing as much wild areas they need they will become weak and in certain areas will not be able to cope with raptor increases.
 
you sure House Sparrws aren't just declining because they were too common for their own good and ran out of spaces to nest/faulty genes got passed through generations/diseases spread easier. Surely It would be more important to study what effects overpopulation had on them, since we seem to have no idea what efect it will have on us.
 
Maybe i am too far away (geographically and emotionally) from that discussion, but I don't really understand why so many have a problem with the conclusion of that study.

Urban areas have been void of predators for decades, and been full of pampered sparrows, pigeons etc. It seems only logical to me that the appearance of Sparrowhawks in that situation would have an impact on the sparrow population.

I would also expect it has an similar impact on other Sparrowhawk prey like pigeons. And I would think that Sparrowhawks certainly would not be able to wipe out sparrows, but reduce the population to a level when balance is reached...
 
Last edited:
... I don't really understand why so many have a problem with the conclusion of that study.

More a questioning than a problem with the conclusion, a healthy response I would say, especially given one off the authors is on the forum and is kind enough to address points raised.

Pure conjecture on my part, but if Sparrowhawks are eventually shown to be responsible for the decline, it could be argued this is good news, as I would presume the population will level out at a sustainable level, perhaps not the case if the reason for decline is one of the other suggested causes.
 
you sure House Sparrws aren't just declining because they were too common for their own good and ....faulty genes got passed through generations....

I believe 'faulty' genes would be an issue where a population is very small and/or fragmented, not likely in an abundant species where genetic mix freely occurs.
 
but I don't really understand why so many have a problem with the conclusion of that study.

I suspect its because it dares to suggest that an animal in this country might be something other that cute ,fluffy and innocent, not something that generally goes down well over here.


And before anyone says it, No i dont think that means we should go around killing them just that we shouldnt dissmiss a report simply because it says something we dont want to hear,which is what I think a few people did on this thread to start with.
 
I suspect its because it dares to suggest that an animal in this country might be something other that cute ,fluffy and innocent, not something that generally goes down well over here.

You are wrong Adam, I am sure every contributor to this thread appreciates what predators do. I think you will find not one person on this thread that is trying to label Sparrowhawks, or any other species, as 'cute, fluffy and innocent'. Questions were rightly raised as the findings of this study appeared to both be at odds with suggested causes of decline found in other studies and that the study may not have taken into consideration other factors that could be of importance, and have been suggested of importance in other studies.
 
Warning! This thread is more than 11 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top