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A strange move by Canon

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Old Thursday 26th March 2009, 17:06   #51
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Originally Posted by oliver14 View Post
Of cause we have an opinion, but I think we should put things into perspective, we have entered into a great new era in photography and have never had so much control over our pics, and such superb equipment to hand.

Let's enjoy it.
Yep, and let's make it more refined by providing feedback on it.
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Old Thursday 26th March 2009, 20:14   #52
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As has been said the grip won't be the same as the 350D one - the batteries are even smaller (the same as the 450D and 1000D ones).
This is the problem that has put me off upgrading my 350d,it isnt just money for the body,its the peripherals,battery grip (vital in my opinion),batteries,even different storage media,why camera companies cant make cameras more cross compatible I dont know,suppose its a way to increase revenue for the manufacturers,but,as in my case,may put some people off upgrading totally..its all about cost at the end of the day
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Old Thursday 26th March 2009, 22:30   #53
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This is the problem that has put me off upgrading my 350d,it isnt just money for the body,its the peripherals,battery grip (vital in my opinion),batteries,even different storage media,why camera companies cant make cameras more cross compatible I dont know,suppose its a way to increase revenue for the manufacturers,but,as in my case,may put some people off upgrading totally..its all about cost at the end of the day

I take that comment, I was a bit annoyed when I got the 50d and the batteries and the memory card were not the same
as the 450d I also own. You would think that over the Canon range of DSLR cameras these could be designed to fit all
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Old Friday 27th March 2009, 02:57   #54
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I take that comment, I was a bit annoyed when I got the 50d and the batteries and the memory card were not the same
as the 450d I also own. You would think that over the Canon range of DSLR cameras these could be designed to fit all
Well, they're two different series, so that's only to be expected IMO. The 1D series have different batteries as well. You wouldn't be able to fit a 1D battery in a xxxD body - not even using hammer and chisel!

It doesn't make sense to expect that the prosumer and pro level cameras should follow the (presumably lower) standard of entry-level cameras. Furthermore, battery technology move forward just as sensor technology does. So it's only to be expected that the new 500D has different batteries than the 4 year old 350D. Imagine how people would react if it didn't

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Old Friday 27th March 2009, 05:45   #55
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Third Party batteries are so cheap on ebay I don't think it's so important if you have to buy a new set for a new camera body.
Ditto memory cards. You can get 8GB for what, about 10-15 GBP these days?

Battery grips are a bit pricier I agree but not so much it'd stop me getting a new camera if I fancied one.

Good job it's only batteries or memory cards that you have to replace. I'm glad internet forums weren't around when Canon changed from the FD mount to the EF mount. Imagine the howls of rage and indignation that would have resulted in........

As an aside it's shocking how much Canon charge for batteries. It's about 4000 here in Japan for one (400D for me or 450D for the wife, different batteries but about the same price). For that same price from Hong Kong I bought two batteries for my 400D plus recharger plus adapter for using the recharger in the car. They all work fine.
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Old Friday 27th March 2009, 08:07   #56
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Some of us were around when Canon changed from FD to EF, but the big difference then was that the EF were for autofocus cameras, not manual focus like the FD and people appreciated the need for the progress causing the change, as the new mount had to carry contacts and electrics to enable the AF. However, there were indeed a lot of gripes about why the EF couldnt be made to take an FD mount. It would certainly have saved me a lot of money, i still have a box of FD mount lenses and A1 bodies that havent been touched for years.

I do take the point about batteries though, i feel they have missed a trick by not maintaining battery type by series, e.g. all the same in xxxD, and different but equal in xxD. But having said that, rechargeable batteries suffer from memory depreciation, and it may be just as well for manufacturers to have a new type, to prevent old batteries causing internal problems. It could be worse, it could be Nikon, with all the problems they have had with their batteries causing allsorts of faults within their cameras.
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Old Friday 27th March 2009, 08:13   #57
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I do take the point about batteries though, i feel they have missed a trick by not maintaining battery type by series, e.g. all the same in xxxD, and different but equal in xxD.
I don't know about the 10D, but the 20D, 30D, 40D and 50D all share the same battery type (even their PSDs use the same ones). It makes financial sense for Canon to keep the same batery as a range evolves, otherwise they have to tool up a new production line and keep stocks of multiple types. If they introduce a new type you can bet there was a darn good reason for doing so.
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Old Friday 27th March 2009, 10:01   #58
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Yep, and let's make it more refined by providing feedback on it.
You can, I'm off to take some photos.
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Old Friday 27th March 2009, 16:35   #59
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Originally Posted by oliver14 View Post
You can, I'm off to take some photos.
Funnily enough, I'm going to take some photos too.
Providing feedback on a camera doesn't stop me doing this.
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Old Saturday 28th March 2009, 22:01   #60
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I'd be interested in the video aspect on a DSLR, for reasons others have given such as recording animal behavious. However the 5DmkII give 1080 opposed to the 500D's 780 definition - guess I will hang on for a couple more years yet, or buy a camcorder
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Old Sunday 29th March 2009, 15:08   #61
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I thought the 500D was 1080p too?
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Old Sunday 29th March 2009, 15:14   #62
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yes but only at 20fps whilst its 780 is 30fps.
For a guide people see at around 24fps so slower than that and motion appears jerky - thus the 1080 mode on the 500D is not really any good - but for a consumer upgrading from point and shoot it looks like its far better than the current Nikon offering which only dose the 780version (at I think around 30fps as well).
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Old Sunday 29th March 2009, 20:38   #63
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20fps 1080p mode is good for grabbing frames out of a sequence. Basically, you can shoot at 20fps at 2MP resolution. There was a 1080p frame grab in one of the online previews of the 50D an it looked really good...
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Old Sunday 29th March 2009, 22:06   #64
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Originally Posted by AC/DC View Post
I thought the 500D was 1080p too?

yeah, sorry misinterpreted the spec, but would want to shoot at 30fps

so back to waiting innit!
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Old Tuesday 31st March 2009, 15:00   #65
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What I mean by strange is that it comes so soon after the 450D and so close in spec to the 50D (it got 15M and even the cross type 9 point focus) that it will drag down the 50D sale
Not remotely strange: the Canon entry-level new models have always been pushed through pretty quickly, generally once a year. The 500D is a year newer than the 450D which was a year newer than the 400D. Totally standard release schedule.

Nor is it at all strange to see the latest xxxD come close to the existing xxD. That too is 100% normal for Canon. The 20D and 350D had essentially the same 8MP sensor; the 400D was the first one with 10MP (it was out before the 10MP 40D), the 450D had a higher resolution than the 40D, and now the 500D is the same res as the 50D. Again, completely normal. Anytime they release a new camera, Canon use the best sensor technology they have available and ready for production, and they never worry if that is going to equal or even exceed the next model up in the range. The 5D II is another example: it has a sensor possibly even better than that in the much more expensive 1Ds III.

50D sales will slow a bit, just as 30D sales slowed when the 400D came out. Apparently, Canon aren't worried about that. Presumably, they don't care too much which Canon camera you buy, so long as you don't buy one of the other brands.

And of course, as Macshark points out, the 50D nevertheless retains a strong set of features that, to many people, will make it worth the extra money.

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Why market it as a DSLR when its not its a hybrid camera that takes video footage,one package can`t do both things well their must be a compromise somewhere along the line.
Because it is a DSLR. It's designed from the ground up to be a DSLR, and the video function is (a) something all the other DSLRs are starting to offer (Nikon D90, Canon 5D II, all the others will follow one by one), and (b) something that is very cheap and easy to graft onto your existing DSLR design. If the camera can already do Live View (as everything can these days), then all you need to do is figure out a way to send the senor output to the flash card in movie format, which is a simple matter of tweaking the signal processing electronics. ("Simple" is a relative term here, obviously - but it's simple by camera design standards, much easier than (say) designing a new autofocus system or a new lens.)

Being a grafted-on feature in a tool that was primarily designed to be an SLR, it is feature poor: no autofocus for example, and the video frame rate is poor (which it has to be, because a single Digic 4 chip couldn't go much faster, and they aren't going to put twin SP chips in a cheap little entry-level camera the way they do with the 1 Series monsters. What do you expect for nothing? And nothing, let us remember, is pretty close to what it cost Canon to put the video feature into the 500D - a bit of chip reprogramming, that's all. If it does what you want in movie mode, that's great. If it doesn't, buy a proper movie camera in the first place. (For myself, my old 20D does everything I have ever wanted in a movie camera, which is to say nothing at all.)

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I think this is really showing what many felt at the time of the 50D release - that it was more of a stopgap camera released to keep face and competition with Nikon more than anything else.
Stopgap how? I honestly can't see what Canon could have done with the 50D that they didn't do already. It's a superb camera that ticks all the boxes and as a package, is a much stronger offering than the no-change 30D or the lack-lustre 40D ever were.

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that is what is stealing the market from canon at the moment - so many people have shifted to nikon to get that improved ISO performance
Nonsense. Nikon have zero ISO advantage over Canon in the APS-C market. 50D vs D300 vs D90 vs 450D vs 40D ... pick 'em with a pin, they are so close to one-another in the high ISO stakes that you can't sensibly claim any of them is the winner. (But the previous generation Nikons - D200 and D80 - were very poor high ISO performers, so Nikon have at least drawn level now.)

The only place where Nikon have the ISO advantage is the same place that they have the reach disadvantage - in the pro sport market (1D III, D3 and D700) - and the advantage is small and the two factors, of course, are directly related to one another. Use bigger pixels and you get better high ISO at the cost of pixel density (which equals reach). Build in more reach and you get lesser high ISO performance. Pick whichever one is the lesser of two evils for your own particular needs. But this has zero relevance to the 500D. Or indeed the 50D, the D90, or any other APS-C camera.
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Old Tuesday 31st March 2009, 15:54   #66
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I just hope that the MP-war stops right here - Please, no larger APS-C sensors!
Leaving the noise and lens resolution issues aside, diffraction starts to kick in around f8 with a 15MP APS-C sensor. Even if there are lenses that can out resolve a 15MP APS-C sensor, and future technology can deal with the increased noise (in the RAW picture - not just sophisticated JPG noise reduction), there is no way around the diffraction issue. So, as I see it, there is no point in larger sensors. And for some aspects of photography (i.e. macro) the 50D/500D have already pushed things to far.

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Old Tuesday 31st March 2009, 16:03   #67
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If what you have now works....it makes little difference what new product Canon or Nikon comes up with....enjoy your camera and what it can do. Purchase a lens that fits your needs and who cares what improvements Canon does.....

People get way too caught up in needing or thinking that the latest camera is actually the best w/o taking into account their true needs.... Canon oversells...as the case is in any tech related purchase or manufacturer. The manufacturer knows how to hock a product, but we as consumers need to know when the product we now have is simply good enough!
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Old Thursday 2nd April 2009, 13:09   #68
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I for one can't wait for the 500D to be released... it may push the 50D down in price which should in turn shove the 40D down to a price close to my current budget for it.

As for a 50D replacement, the 40D was launched in Sept 07, the 50D (allegedly NOT a replacement for it) was launched in Sept 08, so given the rumours of Canon changing to a 12 monthly life cycle, the 40D could go EOL soon and the 50D could see itself getting replaced in Sept 09.

Or then again, maybe none of this will happen and my 20D will have to continue to serve full time rather than enjoying a quieter life!
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Old Wednesday 8th April 2009, 17:30   #69
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There's an interesting interview on CNet with one of Canon's technical advisors. Amongst the issues he discusses, is the inclusion of video in DSLRs.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13580_3-10...?tag=mncol;txt
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Old Wednesday 8th April 2009, 23:59   #70
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diffraction starts to kick in around f8 with a 15MP APS-C sensor. Even if there are lenses that can out resolve a 15MP APS-C sensor, and future technology can deal with the increased noise (in the RAW picture - not just sophisticated JPG noise reduction), there is no way around the diffraction issue. So, as I see it, there is no point in larger sensors.
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the way diffraction applies to sensors. Diffraction has got nothing to do with sensors. It is purely and entirely a lens issue. 100%. The only difference is that higher resolution sensors are able to record the light coming through the lens more accurately. Diffraction is [i]exactly the same/i] on a 10D or a 50D (assuming that we are using the same lens at the same aperture). Exactly the same.

At any given aperture, a higher resolution sensor records the image more accurately than a low resolution sensor. The only time when the two sensors record the same amount of detail is when diffraction is so extreme that there is not much detail in the picture anyway. (I'm not sure where this point is reached, probably around f/45 or so. Certainly way beyond any aperture that you would actually want to shoot at.) The high-resolution never records less detail than the low-res one.

Summary:
Normal shooting: high-res sensor records more detail
Stopped down a lot: both suffer from diffraction, but the high-res sensor still records more detail.
Stopped down to an extreme aperture: both sensors are the same.
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Old Thursday 9th April 2009, 07:56   #71
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At any given aperture, a higher resolution sensor records the image more accurately than a low resolution sensor. The only time when the two sensors record the same amount of detail is when diffraction is so extreme that there is not much detail in the picture anyway. (I'm not sure where this point is reached, probably around f/45 or so. Certainly way beyond any aperture that you would actually want to shoot at.)
The two different sensors will start recording a similar image once the fuzziness (lurve them technical terms) caused by diffraction effects gets to be larger than the pixel size of the lower-res sensor. From what I've read that's going to be around F22 for a 40D. I know for sure that a 20D photo taken at F32 is horribly fuzzy.

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The high-resolution never records less detail than the low-res one.
And this is the really important point and it bears repeating - the higher resolution sensor will never be worse than the lower resolution sensor. Besides, anybody worried about diffraction effects can always re-size their 15MP image to 10MP and blur all that fuzziness away (along with all the detail).
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Old Thursday 16th April 2009, 09:57   #72
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Video vs Stills

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I don't know why anyone would want to moan about having Video on a DSLR .
If you don't like video, don't use it........ As long as it takes good photographs what's the problem
Whilst I agree with your view I think some people are missing the limitation of video, it needs to have IMHO a decent directional sound recording system etc, not the tiny built in mic that captures the camera & photographers noise. For me the pleasure of photography is capturing the moment that needs no soundtrack. So video in this form is a toy not to be confused with the real thing.

Hope you have room in your bag for the microphone and boom to capture the moment!

Mind in a few years I am sure my comments will be redundant. In the mean time we could use musical dubbing using appropriate songs like "Flying without wings".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1LEISP6e9c

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Old Thursday 16th April 2009, 13:01   #73
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Whilst I agree with your view I think some people are missing the limitation of video, it needs to have IMHO a decent directional sound recording system etc, not the tiny built in mic that captures the camera & photographers noise. For me the pleasure of photography is capturing the moment that needs no soundtrack. So video in this form is a toy not to be confused with the real thing.

Hope you have room in your bag for the microphone and boom to capture the moment!

Jim
Yes the audio is a problem. The pickup on the camera has a horrible pickup of the slightest breeze. It also picks up the camera's noise, IS, clicks from changing exposure etc.

I use an inexpensive external mic that hooks into my hotshoe the Rode Videomic. Its a good improvement. Now I just get audio of people saying "What are you doing" or "take my picture"

As far as adding a boom... well have a look at this:

Full Rig


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Old Thursday 16th April 2009, 13:38   #74
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My first PC came without a hard drive, there were two floppy drives of 360kb each, and that was it. Cost an arm and a leg second hand, and performed beautifully for several years. Of course, that was before digital imaging reached the consumer

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Old Thursday 16th April 2009, 13:55   #75
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Stopgap how? I honestly can't see what Canon could have done with the 50D that they didn't do already. It's a superb camera that ticks all the boxes and as a package, is a much stronger offering than the no-change 30D or the lack-lustre 40D ever were.
40D - lacklustre?? Compared with what that had gone before it from Canon?

Agreed the 30D was anything but exciting as an upgrade compared with the 20D, but having used a 20D for 3+ years, I cannot wait for the 40D to go EOL and when it does I am definitely going to be in line for one.
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