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Probable hybrid Black Redstart X Common Redstart, ochruros X phoenicurus

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Old Thursday 3rd March 2005, 09:07   #1
hannu
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Thumbs up Probable hybrid Black Redstart X Common Redstart, ochruros X phoenicurus

See follow link :
http://www.birdlife.fi/lintuharrastu.../redstart.html

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Old Thursday 3rd March 2005, 17:00   #2
luke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hannu
seems to be has charactoristcs of both species being very black redstart on back and more like common on the front

interesting

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Last edited by luke : Friday 4th March 2005 at 17:06.
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Old Friday 4th March 2005, 09:47   #3
Dimitris
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Beautifull Bird whatever it is!Thanks.

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Old Saturday 5th March 2005, 10:27   #4
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I'm assuming that wing formula ruled out some of the more Redstart-like Eastern races of Black-Redstart.... is it phoenicuroides. It certainly looks more like Redstart in build.
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Old Saturday 5th March 2005, 10:29   #5
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Is it me or is that similar to the Eastern race of phoenicuroides?
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Old Sunday 6th March 2005, 19:57   #6
luke
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http://www.tarsiger.com/index.php?p=...ruros&lang=eng

try this link, some pics on it definatly confirm that it is an eastern black redstart pics taken in finland i think

cheers

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Old Sunday 6th March 2005, 21:28   #7
Andrew Rowlands
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From the page linked to :-

*The bird closely resembles the phoenicuroides subspecies of Black Redstart but because of pale mantle colour, distinct white wing-patch and long wing, is most likely a hybrid between Black Redstart and Common Redstart. Perhaps the song, quite extensive pale patch on belly and vent also point in that direction. The emarginations and wing-formula are much like Black Redstart but P8 is longer than found in most of the those (1). The bird cannot be samamisicus Common Redstart because of wing-formula, extensive black throat-patch, indistinctiviness of the white forehead patch and song. What was most likely the same bird was present at the same place in September 2000.*

Certainly sounds much more Black than Common Redstart to me.

Andy.
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Old Sunday 6th March 2005, 21:33   #8
Edward woodwood
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looks a ringer for semirufus Black Red

this very similar to phoenicuroides too!

PS, try Madge and Beaman or Jonsson for semirufus - the Collins guide bird is strange indeed...!

Tim

Last edited by Edward woodwood : Sunday 6th March 2005 at 21:36.
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Old Tuesday 8th March 2005, 13:08   #9
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Dear all, Please see the attachment. We get several birds like this every year in Kuwait. I would be grateful to hear opinions about the identity of this bird.
Best wishes,
George Gregory.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	REDSTART.jpg
Views:	263
Size:	20.2 KB
ID:	17760  
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Old Tuesday 8th March 2005, 13:15   #10
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Dear all,
Here is a higher quality attachment.
Best wishes,
George Gregory.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	REDSTART2.jpg
Views:	257
Size:	63.4 KB
ID:	17762  
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Old Wednesday 9th March 2005, 14:23   #11
hannu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggoldie51
Dear all,
Here is a higher quality attachment.
Best wishes,
George Gregory.
The bird in your photo is Phoenicurus OCHRUROS ssp. phoenicuroides

This kind of birds are quite common wintering bird species e.g. in United Arab Emirates and Oman. This bird breeds in Central Asia and resemble quite much those hybrids.

Hannu

Last edited by hannu : Wednesday 9th March 2005 at 14:58.
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Old Wednesday 9th March 2005, 14:40   #12
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so does the reduced white in the wing of the orig. bird indicate semirufus?
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Old Wednesday 9th March 2005, 15:09   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Allwood
so does the reduced white in the wing of the orig. bird indicate semirufus?
Svensson says that P.o.semirufus's back (Syria, Lebanon, Israel) is VERY black and there is not any white 'panel' in the wing. Small size , wing 76-81 (n 7)
Adult male reminds ssp. rufiventris.

> so this original bird's wing was 89 mm, and it has also white panel in the wing, so it can not be semirufus !

Hannu

Last edited by hannu : Wednesday 9th March 2005 at 15:32.
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Old Thursday 10th March 2005, 10:16   #14
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Dear all,
I am most grateful for your information.
I have seen semirufus listed in at least several countries to the east of its breeding range, even in India! This would require an eastward migration, and I don't think that this is what happens. Probably the birds involved were phoenicuroides or other eastern subspecies. Does anyone have a picture of some eastern subspecies. It would be very useful for us.
Thank you again for your kind help. Best wishes,
George.
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Old Thursday 10th March 2005, 10:32   #15
Edward woodwood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hannu
Svensson says that P.o.semirufus's back (Syria, Lebanon, Israel) is VERY black and there is not any white 'panel' in the wing. Small size , wing 76-81 (n 7)
Adult male reminds ssp. rufiventris.

> so this original bird's wing was 89 mm, and it has also white panel in the wing, so it can not be semirufus !

Hannu
see illustrations in Jonsson, Madge and Beaman etc.... all show a greyish bird with a slight wing panel for semirufus

I don't know who's right but Lars Jonsson is hardy ever wrong...
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Old Thursday 10th March 2005, 11:11   #16
Joern Lehmhus
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A quick google search gave this as a pic of semirufus:

http://www.worldbirder.com/photonew/...p?PhotoID=1330

difficult to judge from this photo how dark upperparts are , but there doesn´t seem to be a real white wingpanel...

Last edited by Joern Lehmhus : Thursday 10th March 2005 at 11:14.
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Old Thursday 10th March 2005, 14:01   #17
hannu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggoldie51
Dear all,
Here is a higher quality attachment.
Best wishes,
George Gregory.
Svensson says also that P.o. ssp phoenicuroides wing is whole dark without white panel, but my friend says that it has whitish panel quite often in fresh plumage. The panel is often weaker than our P.ochruros.

See e.g. (P.o.phoenicuroides)

http://www.tarsiger.com/index.php?pi...66306&lang=fin

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Old Thursday 10th March 2005, 14:10   #18
hannu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Allwood
see illustrations in Jonsson, Madge and Beaman etc.... all show a greyish bird with a slight wing panel for semirufus

I don't know who's right but Lars Jonsson is hardy ever wrong...
Do you have English version from Fågelguiden- Europas och Medelhavsområdets fåglar i fält (Svensson, Zetterström, Killian Mullarney, Peter J. Grant), year 1999?

There is a good picture from semirufus. That bird has same dark black back as the breast. Maybe in brevious photo link from semirufus is not fresh plumage bird. And there is "non-existent panel" . I think that Svensson is GURU in these cases !

Hannu

Last edited by hannu : Thursday 10th March 2005 at 14:13.
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Old Thursday 10th March 2005, 14:37   #19
Edward woodwood
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maybe all the other guides are wrong...

Collins is the only pic i've seen with a really black back

Tim
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Old Thursday 10th March 2005, 15:40   #20
Joern Lehmhus
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For Comparison, this is a link to another probable hybrid

http://users.skynet.be/ch-web/photos/pho_x001.htm


EDIT: also for those interested in behavioural things, here is an abstract on differences in perching behaviour

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/lin...7.2004.03128.x

Last edited by Joern Lehmhus : Thursday 10th March 2005 at 15:44.
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Old Thursday 10th March 2005, 15:50   #21
hannu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joern Lehmhus
For Comparison, this is a link to another probable hybrid
http://users.skynet.be/ch-web/photos/pho_x001.htm
EDIT: also for those interested in behavioural things, here is an abstract on differences in perching behaviour
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/lin...7.2004.03128.x
It seems to be more Common Redstart than Black Redstart... very interesting case, but probably ringers did not catch the bird, so we do know nothing of measurements, unfortunately !

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Old Friday 11th March 2005, 11:06   #22
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Dear all,
There are several discrepancies between published descriptions and photographs of eastern subspecies of Black Redstarts:
(1) Beaman and Madge show semirufus with a bluish back and reduced white wing panel. Svensson says: ''very black above and lacking white wing patch''.
(2) Beaman and Madge say that phoenicuroides lacks white wing panel. Svensson (quoting Shirihai) says of phoenicuroides: ''wing is all dark, lacking white 'panel' ''. The attached Kuwait bird shows a reduced white wing panel.
(3) Svensson (quoting Shirihai) says that phoenicuroides has a ''sharp border to black upper breast and throat''. The attached Kuwait bird does not. (Other Kuwait birds do.)
Either the attached Kuwait bird is not a phoenicuroides, or the descriptions of Svensson/Shirihai need revising.
Please let me know your opinions. This is just one of many subspecies problems that we have found in Kuwait, in the southeast corner of the Western Palearctic, where much further work is clearly needed.
Best wishes,
George.
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Old Saturday 12th March 2005, 10:34   #23
hannu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggoldie51
Dear all,
There are several discrepancies between published descriptions and photographs of eastern subspecies of Black Redstarts:
(1) Beaman and Madge show semirufus with a bluish back and reduced white wing panel. Svensson says: ''very black above and lacking white wing patch''.
(2) Beaman and Madge say that phoenicuroides lacks white wing panel. Svensson (quoting Shirihai) says of phoenicuroides: ''wing is all dark, lacking white 'panel' ''. The attached Kuwait bird shows a reduced white wing panel.
(3) Svensson (quoting Shirihai) says that phoenicuroides has a ''sharp border to black upper breast and throat''. The attached Kuwait bird does not. (Other Kuwait birds do.)
Either the attached Kuwait bird is not a phoenicuroides, or the descriptions of Svensson/Shirihai need revising.
Please let me know your opinions. This is just one of many subspecies problems that we have found in Kuwait, in the southeast corner of the Western Palearctic, where much further work is clearly needed.
Best wishes,
George.

Yes, The outward appearance of these birds can variate a quite concerning the phase of plumage. So back of the bird can be e.g. to bluish black > very black and white panel > non-existent panel depending on the phase of plumage. Unfortunately authors of these books has described very often only one or two phase of plumage...
I think that probably Svensson's description is more accurate than Jonsson or others??

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Old Monday 14th March 2005, 12:00   #24
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Dear all,
I think that male semirufus is a dark-backed bird with a reduced white wing panel just after the summer moult. This panel gradually becomes less distinct due to wear. Perhaps both modern field guides and Svensson/Shirihai should show this in future.
I do not know what the attached Kuwait bird is.
The nominate race, ochruros, is almost never illustrated in bird books, probably because it is so variable. Apparently males usually have a white wing panel.
I do not know if male phoenicuroides and/or rufiventris have a reduced white wing panel just after the summer moult.
Probably more study of specimens and photographs would be very useful.
Best wishes,
George.
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Old Monday 14th March 2005, 17:50   #25
hannu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggoldie51
Dear all,
I think that male semirufus is a dark-backed bird with a reduced white wing panel just after the summer moult. This panel gradually becomes less distinct due to wear. Perhaps both modern field guides and Svensson/Shirihai should show this in future.
I do not know what the attached Kuwait bird is.
The nominate race, ochruros, is almost never illustrated in bird books, probably because it is so variable. Apparently males usually have a white wing panel.
I do not know if male phoenicuroides and/or rufiventris have a reduced white wing panel just after the summer moult.
Probably more study of specimens and photographs would be very useful.
Best wishes,
George.
I took two pics from books, which shows the differences of description of semirufus between Jonsson and Svensson. See attachments...
Hannu

Last edited by hannu : Friday 31st August 2007 at 08:10.
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