Racing pigeons (1 Viewer)

pete1950 said:

Ok the following might be a tad out of date, and the latest record price could be much higher.

The most expensive racing pigeon cost over £110,000 and is called Invincible Spirit and was bought by Louella Pigeon World UK in 1992.


There are an estimated 80,000 fanciers in the UK who raise around 2,000,000 young birds per year.

2,000,000!!! With figures like that, which have been lifted from a pigeon site, could someone please explain how 2,000,000 birds are absorbed into the fancy each year given that the lifespan for an individual bird is around 3-4 years.?

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Omigod, I had not realised it was as high as that. 2 million birds per year with a lifespan of 3-4 years gives a (potential) total figure of 6-8 million birds. Allowing for culling the birds for various reasons, that would give a figure of 3-6 millon birds in the UK alone. This may surprise everyone but that figure is greater than the number of wild pigeons and doves of all species in the UK and also explains why no true estimate can be made of the feral population. At least some of the ferals may be accessories that only visit feral flocks from time to time. If Anthony reads this, it is part of what I was trying to get over about honesty and whether fanciers would be willing to concede points to get some clarity.

pete1950 said:

Ok the following might be a tad out of date, and the latest record price could be much higher.

The most expensive racing pigeon cost over £110,000 and is called Invincible Spirit and was bought by Louella Pigeon World UK in 1992.


There are an estimated 80,000 fanciers in the UK who raise around 2,000,000 young birds per year.

2,000,000!!! With figures like that, which have been lifted from a pigeon site, could someone please explain how 2,000,000 birds are absorbed into the fancy each year given that the lifespan for an individual bird is around 3-4 years.?

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Hi Pete
If you do the math on the figures given it works out to about 25 rings per fancier totaling over a four year period 100 birds bred , losses due to all eventualities (not culling) ammount to about 50% (my guess) leaving the average number of birds to survive at about 50 .
I think that figures quoted say each loft contains between 80 and 100 pigeons , so what appears an enormous figure at first glance then comes into perspective . Another point although most birds do not get to the five year mark some do and pigeons can live to a ripe old age (mainly retired racers or stock birds) I think the oldest bird that I have heard of lived to 27 years .

Anthony Morton said:

Hi The Tom,

There you are, my friend. I was beginning to think that even you had got tired, not to say giddy, of going round in circles. Welcome back!

Anthony

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Hi Anthony
Sorry to have been away so long but Ive bin busy with the young uns , carry on with the good work and keep letting em know we are always at the ready to put the other side of the story , and keep the discussions balanced .

The Tom said:

Hi Pete
If you do the math on the figures given it works out to about 25 rings per fancier totaling over a four year period 100 birds bred , losses due to all eventualities (not culling) ammount to about 50% (my guess) leaving the average number of birds to survive at about 50 .
I think that figures quoted say each loft contains between 80 and 100 pigeons , so what appears an enormous figure at first glance then comes into perspective . Another point although most birds do not get to the five year mark some do and pigeons can live to a ripe old age (mainly retired racers or stock birds) I think the oldest bird that I have heard of lived to 27 years .

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Oh I did the math, but as I understand it the 2,000,000 relates to birds raised, even a relatively small figure of 25 per loft would mean 100 birds over the four years, that is from a standing start, as most fanciers have been going since Cain was a lad that's an awful amount of birds over the years. You say that most birds don't get to five years, this I know which is why I said four years as opposed to five, but that is the flyers, the stock birds last much longer because they do not have the same amount of stress.

A loft of 80 pigeons would swell to (your figures) 130, and you imply that retired racers are kept, or my figures are 180 for a loft of 80 birds over the four years. Should we say that a loft contains 100 birds then it is 200 birds and the need for another loft.

I also note in your reply you have again denied the culling aspect, I don't know why, what are the reasons other than you might get up the nose of some crank? Culling is part and parcel of keeping racing pigeons, (or any other fancy for that matter) it's not perhaps the most savoury part but it is necessary to maintain a strong healthy loft.

To perhaps put it another way, without the flying rat jibe, how else can you keep the numbers down to a manageable level and maintain the strengths of your line without culling? Or even worse selling them off as good birds, for which your reputation would quickly be shot.

The Tom said:

Hi Anthony
Sorry to have been away so long but Ive bin busy with the young uns , carry on with the good work and keep letting em know we are always at the ready to put the other side of the story , and keep the discussions balanced .

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Ye gad's.

I've been around pigeon, poultry, rabbit and dog breeders all my life, I myself have recently retired from showing rabbits, I am not on a witch-hunt, I just tell it how it is. Neither am I implying that cruelty is involved, but culling is a necessary evil that is carried out as humanely as possible but it still happens.

pete1950 said:

Oh I did the math, but as I understand it the 2,000,000 relates to birds raised, even a relatively small figure of 25 per loft would mean 100 birds over the four years, that is from a standing start, as most fanciers have been going since Cain was a lad that's an awful amount of birds over the years. You say that most birds don't get to five years, this I know which is why I said four years as opposed to five, but that is the flyers, the stock birds last much longer because they do not have the same amount of stress.

A loft of 80 pigeons would swell to (your figures) 130, and you imply that retired racers are kept, or my figures are 180 for a loft of 80 birds over the four years. Should we say that a loft contains 100 birds then it is 200 birds and the need for another loft.

I also note in your reply you have again denied the culling aspect, I don't know why, what are the reasons other than you might get up the nose of some crank? Culling is part and parcel of keeping racing pigeons, (or any other fancy for that matter) it's not perhaps the most savoury part but it is necessary to maintain a strong healthy loft.

To perhaps put it another way, without the flying rat jibe, how else can you keep the numbers down to a manageable level and maintain the strengths of your line without culling? Or even worse selling them off as good birds, for which your reputation would quickly be shot.

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Hi Pete
If you read my reply properly you will see that only 12 to 13 birds per fancier (an average figure) survive each year that is about 50 over a four year period by which time the origional pigeons would have decreased exponentially and would then be replaced each year by new young birds so a balance is achieved . As for your assertion that culling is a part of pigeon racing you may have a point but it does not in my opinion play as large part as you seem to say .I have been a fancier myself for many years and only very occasionally have I heard of this anecdotal evidence of mass culling and can honestly say that I have never personally witnessed it .

The Tom said:

Hi Pete
If you read my reply properly you will see that only 12 to 13 birds per fancier (an average figure) survive each year that is about 50 over a four year period by which time the origional pigeons would have decreased exponentially and would then be replaced each year by new young birds so a balance is achieved . As for your assertion that culling is a part of pigeon racing you may have a point but it does not in my opinion play as large part as you seem to say .I have been a fancier myself for many years and only very occasionally have I heard of this anecdotal evidence of mass culling and can honestly say that I have never personally witnessed it .

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You appear to have an obsession with mass culling, nowhere have I said mass culling, all I have said is that culling is part and parcel of animal husbandry (any animal) the dictionary definition of culling is: - To take out an animal, especially an inferior one. That would include ill or damaged, now can you say that you have never dispatched a bird for any of the above reasons?

Sorry to disapoint but we are mostly (99%) resonable people who love our birds and hobby .
I can assure you that not claiming racing pigeons is taken seriously and failure to do so means expulsion from the RPRA .

This quote reminded me of a work mate who keeps the doo's.
He received a letter from a Morrocan gentleman who claimed he had his pigeon and wanted money for its keep. He denied that it was his pigeon and as a result the Scottish Pigeon Federation threatened him with expulsion if he didnt pay up.
I believed him totally not because he's a trusting bloke more that I couldnt believe any of his birds could make it to N Africa. ha ha
Anyway things were looking serious for him when one night the phone rang, at the end of it was a fellow pigeon fancier from down south and it seemed he had the same story to tell.
It turns out that a batch of British rings were found in an old Peregrines nest somewhere in England and these were then sent to Morrocco to help along the scene there.
As a result it seems the Morroccan thought he had latched on to a money making scheme.
With regards to BOP and Pigeons the fact that some end up as food for these birds I have no doubt,however several birds also fly in to power lines,parks and gardens and there is an instance of a flock of c5000 birds crossing the channel only to be wiped out by a large wave,
My point well when these birds dont reapear at their lofts who gets the blame ?

The Tom said:

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I can imagine some kid coming home with a flying rat under his arm saying it's all right Mam I'll keep it in me bedroom.


Hi Pete
I think the above statement shows your true feelings towards racing pigeons so I think we can take your comments with a pinch of salt .
I dont know where you get the idea that there is loads of money sloshing round as you put it , most birds change hands for between £30 and £50 and as for the breeder you mentioned he sells most of his birds for between £99 and £129 for a kit of six young birds , hardly a lot of money in this day and age .
Yes large sums are sometimes paid but this is the exception rather than the rule .

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Correct me if I am wrong but I was led to believe that this Mazzereli character was a millionaire by buying pigeons with big prices that had won top races.
He then breeds these and sells their offspring on much like a stud in horse racing.

Birdspotter said:

Correct me if I am wrong but I was led to believe that this Mazzereli character was a millionaire by buying pigeons with big prices that had won top races.
He then breeds these and sells their offspring on much like a stud in horse racing.

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I think he made his money in ice cream, he does however have extensive interests in both horses and pigeons, both his stud and lofts are operated like a company.

His pigeon loft is open to the public, and yes you can buy youngsters at competetive prices, but these won't be from the top stock. People buy from him just so they can say they have some of his bloodline.

I have read numerous stories in the birding and national press of blame for missing pigeons being laid at the door of Birds Of Prey, most notably Peregrine Falcons. There are many other hazards out there besides BOP, such as power cables, windows and the biggest killer of birds - domestic cats. I hate the attitude that BOP have to be killed to protect pigeons.
All wild birds are precious, and to even contemplate killing them to protect a sport cannot be countenanced. If someone has paid £60,000 for a pigeon, then he/she has obviously got more money than sense and if that bird goes missing - for whatever reason - then too bad. That person could surely afford thousands more reasonably priced ones...and if he/she had sense probably had the thing insured anyway.

My father used to race pigeons, (and yes they always won ), and although it used to upset him for days, he would ring the neck of a pigeon that didn't perform well.

However, there are different categories of performing badly. One particular pigeon was actually amazing, and would win most races, but had one small bad habit.

In order to win the race, the pigeon has to 'trap' at the loft, a racing ring is removed, placed in a small capsule, and locked into a special clock that records the time the ring was entered.

This pigeon had a habit of landing on the roof of the house, and wouldn't trap. He didn't last long. His name was clapper, as he used to 'go like the clappers'.

Many pigeons go astray because they get caught in a storm, we once had one land on a Norwegian Trawler. The owner wrote to my father, then released the bird when it had regained its strength. The bird returned home safe and sound.

So, I was brought up with pigeons, (Ok how many jokes can you make out of that one ), but my view on the BOP issue is this. Even if you are mad enough to pay vast amounts of money for a pigeon, pigeon racing is a hobby. No hobby is worth taking the life of another animal to protect it. If you choose to race the favoured prey of a Peregrine Falcon, don't be surprised if you loose a few.

One thing that does amaze me is that it is often quoted that Peregrines prey on racing pigeons. I'm sorry, but I doubt if a Peregrine knows the difference between a racing pigeon and and a 'roady' or feral pigeon. Do they actually believe the Peregrine checks if the pigeon is wearing a ring?

One of the most amazing pieces of information I have seen used in support of homing pigeons is that 'they saved many lives during the war, and now we are turning our backs on them'. I'm sorry, but we are taliking about pigeons here. They didn't consciously signed up, man took advantage of their homing instincts. Anyway, what about the sacrifice made by the Peregrine Falcon to ensure the pigeons got through.

If pigeon fanciers are allowed to shoot BOP to make their hobby easier, can I shoot tourists who have no idea how to behave near wild animals? Bcause they sure as hell make my hobby of watching and photographing wildlife more difficult.

Gary

Gajo said:

If pigeon fanciers are allowed to shoot BOP to make their hobby easier, can I shoot tourists who have no idea how to behave near wild animals? Bcause they sure as hell make my hobby of watching and photographing wildlife more difficult.

Gary

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Can I shoot racing pigeons eating my wildbird food, which I buy at some expense so that I can enjoy the company of wildbirds???
Not that I would.

Mick

Oh! I forgot to mention the other cause of pigeons disappearing. Pigeon fanciers have another enemy in the bird world, apart from BOP. The 'roady', or feral pigeon. Racing pigeons are often attracted by feral pigeons, and become feral themselves.


Gary

Mickymouse said:

Can I shoot racing pigeons eating my wildbird food, which I buy at some expense so that I can enjoy the company of wildbirds???
Not that I would.

Mick

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Hi Mick,

In a word, NO! Just for the record, the legal advice obtained from the RPRA's solicitors in 1985 was that;

"The relevant statutory provisions under which the shooting of racing pigeons may be a criminal offence continues to be Section 1 of the Theft Act 1969 and Section 1 of the Criminal Damages Act 1971."