September Moths (1 Viewer)

Thanks Paul. I looked at the link but still can't see how this moth fits SqSpRustic instead of Suspected which still seems a better match. Especially as I've had quite a few SqSpRustic and this seemed a different shape and 'fuller'. But I am NO EXPERT at all so any pointers useful please.

Allen

I'm struggling with 4 or 5 moths each time which I'm eventually suspecting are Sq Sp Rustics. Right pain! Taking more time than everything else put together, or at least it feels like it. Think a website page showing all the variation and poses would be great!

This is a start -

https://britishlepidoptera.weebly.com/357-xestia-xanthographa-square-spot-rustic.html

Also starting to default look at the hindwing on things (wish I still had the Skinner book which showed the hindwings) as often that can be almost instantly a clincher for some otherwise trickier/similar species. (Click on the 'dissection' tab on above website to see hindwings)

Farnboro John said:

You mean nothing unsuspected..... :t:

John

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You're such a nonconformist John.

121 of 17 last night. Bit blowy.

54 LYU, Setaceous Heb Ch up to 32. Other interesting bits my first Straw Dot (and Common Wainscot) for September too, Frosted Orange, Pinion-streaked Snout, Dark Sword Grass and 2 Black Rustic.

dantheman said:

I'm struggling with 4 or 5 moths each time which I'm eventually suspecting are Sq Sp Rustics. Right pain! Taking more time than everything else put together, or at least it feels like it. Think a website page showing all the variation and poses would be great!

This is a start -

https://britishlepidoptera.weebly.com/357-xestia-xanthographa-square-spot-rustic.html

Also starting to default look at the hindwing on things (wish I still had the Skinner book which showed the hindwings) as often that can be almost instantly a clincher for some otherwise trickier/similar species. (Click on the 'dissection' tab on above website to see hindwings)

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Thanks Dan, this link helps me more to see that my suspected Suspected is a Square spot Rustic as Paul said it was.

Allen said:

Thanks Paul. I looked at the link but still can't see how this moth fits SqSpRustic instead of Suspected which still seems a better match. Especially as I've had quite a few SqSpRustic and this seemed a different shape and 'fuller'. But I am NO EXPERT at all so any pointers useful please.

Allen

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Sorry. It has been a bit of a day. I will respond.

andyadcock said:

Hallelujah it's not just me!

Averaging 6 - 8 moths per night recently, mostly Lge Y Underwing and S-s Rustics.

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Sorry Andy. It has got a bit good this week on my patch. Usual update will follow in the next week or so......

https://twitter.com/PaulBrianChapm2/status/1306675784338333696?s=19

Two patch ticks - Radford's Flame Shoulder & Dark Crimson Underwing!!!

All the best

Very low numbers last night, single digit but a very nice Black Rustic was appreciated. By brother had an Elephant Hawkmoth which seemed very late!

Paul Chapman said:

Sorry. It has been a bit of a day. I will respond.



Sorry Andy. It has got a bit good this week on my patch. Usual update will follow in the next week or so......

https://twitter.com/PaulBrianChapm2/status/1306675784338333696?s=19

Two patch ticks - Radford's Flame Shoulder & Dark Crimson Underwing!!!

All the best

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My possible Lempke's is currently having it's 'nads' pulled, I'll post the result.

62 of 11 last night. LYU beaten into 3rd place by Setaceous Hebrew Character and Square Spot Rustic.

Feathered Ranunculus (f) was new, as was a female European Corn-borer (micro).

andyadcock said:

My possible Lempka's is currently having it's 'nads' pulled, I'll post the result.

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I will be interested.

All the best

Paul Chapman said:

I will be interested.

All the best

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Our recorder has told me that she's dissected a few over the years in Notts, including several which were caught at potentially, much better sites, habitat wise, than mine, none have been Lempke's.

I was lucky to have caught another Gold Spot that same night which allowed a size comparison. The possible Lempke's was considerably smaller, this, combined with visible features, would, without dissection, lead most to conclude that it was a Lempka's.

If it comes back as a regular Gold Spot, it should serve as a lesson to us all!

Isn't it Lemke's (with an 'e')?!


Going back to your original pics, and knowing that Gold Spot can be quite variable - well, will be interesting. Fingers crossed I guess!

dantheman said:

Isn't it Lemke's (with an 'e')?!


Going back to your original pics, and knowing that Gold Spot can be quite variable - well, will be interesting. Fingers crossed I guess!

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Yes, but rather Lempke's :t:

Just got the results back, our recorder writes.....

Hi Andy,

I’ve dissected your moth (a male, fortunately – they are easy to tell apart, but females of these two are much more difficult!)

Not what you’ll be wanting to hear, but unfortunately a typical male Gold Spot (not Lempke’s) in all four key aspects of the genitalia.

Before I dissected it, I had a look online to see if there were any other features of the external appearance that might be a better guide than the* ones people normally go by. I came up with one interesting possible – a “W” shape in the postmedian cross line (see attached downloaded web photos) in Gold Spot, but not in Lempke’s. I examined this in yours with* a hand lens – and if anything, yours had an even stronger “W” shape than in the attached photo of the Gold Spot. So, as it did turn out to be a Gold Spot and not a Lempke’s – I wonder if this is a good feature? Only time and more dissections will tell!.'..............................

So, let this be a lesson to us all and strike all those undisseccted Lempke's, from your lists!

I attach an illustration of the point she makes about the 'W' feature.

I should probably have started a separate thread for this but anyway.

Based on the dissection of the Gold Spot and subsequent comments, I sent our recorder images of two individuals that I caught in Russia and which I had already, tentatively ID'd as Lempke's. She agrees that both are probably Lempke's IF, the 'W' feature is to be relied upon. It should be noted also, that we were in prime habitat for Lempke's

Images of the Russian moths are attached below and seem to reinforce the message that this pair, are very variable and in fact, probably impossible to ID, reliably, without dissection.

andyadcock said:

Just got the results back, our recorder writes.....

Hi Andy,

I’ve dissected your moth (a male, fortunately – they are easy to tell apart, but females of these two are much more difficult!)

Not what you’ll be wanting to hear, but unfortunately a typical male Gold Spot (not Lempke’s) in all four key aspects of the genitalia.

Before I dissected it, I had a look online to see if there were any other features of the external appearance that might be a better guide than the* ones people normally go by. I came up with one interesting possible – a “W” shape in the postmedian cross line (see attached downloaded web photos) in Gold Spot, but not in Lempke’s. I examined this in yours with* a hand lens – and if anything, yours had an even stronger “W” shape than in the attached photo of the Gold Spot. So, as it did turn out to be a Gold Spot and not a Lempke’s – I wonder if this is a good feature? Only time and more dissections will tell!.'..............................

So, let this be a lesson to us all and strike all those undisseccted Lempke's, from your lists!

I attach an illustration of the point she makes about the 'W' feature.

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Andy

Thanks for posting these. Very informative. It just goes to show that you need a classic.

All the best

Allen said:

Thanks Paul. I looked at the link but still can't see how this moth fits SqSpRustic instead of Suspected which still seems a better match. Especially as I've had quite a few SqSpRustic and this seemed a different shape and 'fuller'. But I am NO EXPERT at all so any pointers useful please.

Allen

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Allen

Finally found ten mins. This is difficult as it is as much about the feel & shape of the moth.

Suspected is an unusual shape really. No distinct forehead just a rounded head. If you compare these links, you can see the difference and the head shape of Square-spot Rustic:-

https://ukmoths.org.uk/species/xestia-xanthographa#prettyPhoto

https://ukmoths.org.uk/species/parastichtis-suspecta#prettyPhoto

Suspected has shorter broader more rounded wings. Difficult really to point to differences in markings, oval shapes, etc because your Square-spot Rustic is a very plain one. A friend always said to me that there is no alternative but to look at a lot of moths especially with something like Square-spot Rustic that is very variable indeed.

(It would be late for a Suspected.)

All the best

September records from me confined to mine and a friend's garden in Clevedon, North Somerset.

My garden records:-
1st September - 54 moths of 20 species - nothing new for the year
2nd September - 54 moths of 20 species - Oak Nycteoline new for the year (& repeats of Old Lady and the start of a run of L-album Wainscots)
3rd September - 54 moths of 20 species - nothing new for the year
4th September - 59 moths of 18 species - Duponchelia fovealis a patch tick
5th September - 41 moths of 17 species - Lunar Underwing new for the year
6th September - 36 moths of 12 species - nothing new for the year (but the start of a run of Bordered Beauties)
7th September - 62 moths of 11 species - nothing new for the year
8th September - 80 moths of 13 species - nothing new for the year
9th September - 61 moths of 19 species - nothing new for the year
10th September - 51 moths of 15 species - nothing new for the year (but Dark Swordgrass)
11th September - 54 moths of 20 species - nothing new for the year
12th September - 43 moths of 13 species - Centre-barred Sallow new for the year
13th September - 56 moths of 20 species - Black Rustic new for the year
14th September - 85 moths of 24 species - nothing new for the year
15th September - 72 moths of 16 species - Large Wainscot new for the year
16th September - 81 moths of 21 species - Clifden Nonpareil new for the year (with Bob catching one the same night)
17th September - 41 moths of 15 species - Feathered Ranunculus new for the year
18th September - 60 moths of 17 species - nothing new for the year

My friend Bob Fleetwood stole the show however with the third county record of Radford's Flame Shoulder on the night of 14th September. He then followed that up with a Dark Crimson Underwing on the night of the 16th September which was also the night of our second and third patch Clifden Nonpareils. This was the first Bristol Region record. He also produced Dark Spectacle and Prays ruficeps over the last week.

A few pics starting with this week's Catocala fest........

Pics - Red & Dark Crimson Underwings, Dark Crimson Underwing x 2 & Clifden Nonpareil x 2.

All the best

Paul

The Radford's is an interesting identification being larger & grey than Flame Shoulder with the vertical streak being longer, the hindwing pure white & the clinching feature being the white hairs at the base of a paler abdomen.

The Duponchelia fovealis is also interesting. A possible migrant thought mainly to be an adventive but with a few local hotspots suggesting potential naturalisation.

More pics - Radford's Flame Shoulder x 3 & Duponchelia fovealis x 2.

All the best

Paul

A few more pics - Dark Spectacle, Black Rustic, Feathered Ranunculus, Centre-barred Sallow & Large Wainscot.