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Vortex Razor UHD 18x56 ?

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Old Sunday 21st July 2019, 19:14   #26
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The point is the article doesn't really say there is NO difference between the Viper HD and the Razor. It is just saying 50 people could not tell much difference within the limits of their eyesight. In the real world that means a lot regardless of the validity of their test methods. To me it means unless you have exceptional eyesight or you are especially critical when evaluating optics that you probably won't notice much difference either. I don't notice much difference between the Viper HD or Razor so to me that is what matters most. Our reality is determined by what we perceive not what actually exists.
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Old Sunday 21st July 2019, 20:29   #27
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Dennis,

That test is functionally no different than that letter chart your optometrist uses. It just assesses your visual acuity, yet that report shows that a significant number in that test group imagined they could see a resolution difference between the two Swarovskis and the Vortex models, and also between the Vortex and the Kowa. They ranked the brand, thats all.

The reality is that, for the Japanese versions at least, the Razor HD has better colour, contrast, and effective resolution than Viper HD. I couldn't tell you what percentage in a blind comparison would appreciate those difference in broader testing, but I suspect it would be rather more than there would be between the Razor and the Swaros. Plenty of binocular industry professionals have assured me that like many industries it's primarily prestige value that sells rather than better performance.

If you have realised you cannot tell a Viper from a Razor it's a really valuable lesson. Now how many Swaros have you owned over the years?

David

Last edited by typo : Monday 22nd July 2019 at 03:24.
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Old Sunday 21st July 2019, 23:45   #28
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"The reality is that, for the Japanese versions at least, the Razor HD has better colour, contrast, and effective resolution than Viper HD. I couldn't tell you what percentage in a blind comparison would appreciate those difference in broader testing, but I suspect it would be rather more than there would be between the Razor and the Swaros."

All right, all right you convinced me. I just traded my Vortex Viper HD 12x50 in for a Vortex Razor 12x50. You better be right or I will come over to the UK and find you. I do think the ergonomics, armour, focuser and diopter are a little nicer on the Razor. I like the Vortex 50mm's because they are light usually less than 28 oz. and compact. The 12x50 format is good for twilight and spotting birds and game at distance. I don't like to spend $2K on a 12x for as much as I use it. I am sure the Swarovision 12x50 SV is the best.

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Old Monday 22nd July 2019, 00:14   #29
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
"The reality is that, for the Japanese versions at least, the Razor HD has better colour, contrast, and effective resolution than Viper HD. I couldn't tell you what percentage in a blind comparison would appreciate those difference in broader testing, but I suspect it would be rather more than there would be between the Razor and the Swaros."

All right, all right you convinced me. I just traded my Vortex Viper HD 12x50 in for a Vortex Razor 12x50. You better be right or I will come over to the UK and find you. I do think the ergonomics, armour, focuser and diopter are a little nicer on the Razor. I like the Vortex 50mm's because they are light usually less than 28 oz. and compact. The 12x50 format is good for twilight and spotting birds and game at distance. I don't like to spend $2K on a 12x for as much as I use it. I am sure the Swarovision 12x50 SV is the best.

I'm glad I kept my Nikon SE 12x50 CF! I have the Tripod Adaptor for it too.

Bob
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Old Monday 22nd July 2019, 01:12   #30
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Dennis...

I hope you didn't really get the Razor HD...

For ONE.....David is referring to the MIJ models which as you know, there are no more. SECONDLY.....in all due respect to David, I owned the 8X42 Viper HD and Razor HD MIJ models both, and I actually preferred the Viper HD. Just look at the Allbinos review for the MIJ Viper HD. It's would be hard for the Razor HD to beat it and I don't really feel like it did optically. The main difference was FOV which the Razor HD WAS an improvement. Beyond that....nah. I shudder to think about the MIC Razor HD. PERHAPS the Razor HD will be what the MIJ Viper HD WAS. That Razor HD really has zero armoring on it and the finish is pretty easy to scratch. The one binocular in the Viper HDs price range that DID better it, slightly was the Endeavor HD II.
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Old Monday 22nd July 2019, 04:29   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
"The reality is that, for the Japanese versions at least, the Razor HD has better colour, contrast, and effective resolution than Viper HD. I couldn't tell you what percentage in a blind comparison would appreciate those difference in broader testing, but I suspect it would be rather more than there would be between the Razor and the Swaros."

All right, all right you convinced me. I just traded my Vortex Viper HD 12x50 in for a Vortex Razor 12x50. You better be right or I will come over to the UK and find you. I do think the ergonomics, armour, focuser and diopter are a little nicer on the Razor. I like the Vortex 50mm's because they are light usually less than 28 oz. and compact. The 12x50 format is good for twilight and spotting birds and game at distance. I don't like to spend $2K on a 12x for as much as I use it. I am sure the Swarovision 12x50 SV is the best.
Dennis,

The CA is creeping a bit in the Razor HD 12x50. The 10x50 would be my choice from the range.

David
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Old Monday 22nd July 2019, 04:53   #32
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Dennis...

I hope you didn't really get the Razor HD...

For ONE.....David is referring to the MIJ models which as you know, there are no more. SECONDLY.....in all due respect to David, I owned the 8X42 Viper HD and Razor HD MIJ models both, and I actually preferred the Viper HD. Just look at the Allbinos review for the MIJ Viper HD. It's would be hard for the Razor HD to beat it and I don't really feel like it did optically. The main difference was FOV which the Razor HD WAS an improvement. Beyond that....nah. I shudder to think about the MIC Razor HD. PERHAPS the Razor HD will be what the MIJ Viper HD WAS. That Razor HD really has zero armoring on it and the finish is pretty easy to scratch. The one binocular in the Viper HDs price range that DID better it, slightly was the Endeavor HD II.
I went over to Cabella's yesterday and compared the Vortex Viper HD 12x50 to the Vortex Razor 12x50 since this discussion started and I actually preferred the Razor by a small margin. I liked the thinner armour better, the focuser was smoother and the diopter was superior on the Razor. I like the appearance of the Razor better also. It just looks more streamlined and higher quality to me. The weight and size on both of them is about the same at about 28 oz. so they are light for a 50mm. I compared the optics very closely and the FOV is about the same same and IMO the Razor did have slightly better color, contrast and resolution. It just was a tad sharper IMO. I haven't had any problems with the majority of the MIC Vortex's I have tried outside of one 10x42 Razor that would not focus properly. I contacted Vortex about it and told them their quality was suffering because they were MIC and they sent me a FREE pair of MIJ Vortex's 10x42. Now that is service! Anyway I ordered a pair of Vortex Razor 12x50's from B&H. I am not afraid of the MIC Vortex's because if they are defective they will send you a new pair. Chuck, if that is your Vortex Razor 12x50 in the picture it looks like the older model which is different than the new model. Here is a picture of the new model Razor 12x50.

https://www.opticsplanet.com/reviews...lar-green.html
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Last edited by [email protected] : Monday 22nd July 2019 at 05:15.
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Old Monday 22nd July 2019, 04:56   #33
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Dennis,

The CA is creeping a bit in the Razor HD 12x50. The 10x50 would be my choice from the range.

David
That could be but I want a 12x50 for long distance wolf and bear spotting in Yellowstone National Part in twilight when they are moving in the early morning. I already have a 10x32 SV and a 10x40 Habicht. I wonder if the Vortex Razor UHD 12x50 is any better for CA? it has a puny FOV 236 feet and it is heavy @36 oz.! I have heard they have AK prisms though.

https://www.sportsmans.com/hunting-g...RoCL3wQAvD_BwE

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Old Monday 22nd July 2019, 05:28   #34
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Chuck,

Are you referring to the Allbino 2011 test of the Viper HD 10x42 that scored 140.9/170? Back then the Viper had dull, distinctly creamy colour balance, the contrast and effective resolution and CA were nothing special. The 2016 Swarovski SLC was yards better on all those points yet scored just 139.8/170. I know as an astrophysicist Arek likes flat fields of view and low distortion so it's no surprise the Vanguard Endeavour EDII 10x42 scored well, but that very odd colour balance kills contrast after sunset, and the super critical eye positioning on the 10x42 makes it a bit of a pain to use. Regardless of a score of 144.8/170 I wouldn't put it anywhere close to the top of my tree.

I should acknowledge the colour of the Viper HD has improved since 2011, but not enough to sway my own opinion on the advantages of the Razor. If you're not convinced that the Razor HD offers better optical performance than the Viper HD, then stick with the Viper. Please, just be wary of justifying it with an Allbinos score.

Cheers,

David
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Old Monday 22nd July 2019, 06:08   #35
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......... I wonder if the Vortex Razor UHD 12x50 is any better for CA? it has a puny FOV 236 feet and it is heavy @36 oz.! I have heard they have AK prisms though.....
Dennis,

I first heard excited whispers about a new top spec Kamakura AK x42 model being offered 3 or 4 years ago, but the weight and price was the show stopper then. Looks like Vortex have taken up the challenge and I'm certainly looking forward to checking them out. Hoping they will arrive for Birdfair next month. I won't know about the CA until then.

Unfortunately Vortex made multiple errors in their description and specifications when the range was announced, and last thing I heard from the British distributor was they still hadn't sorted out the mess. On most websites the FoV of the 12x50 is given as 5.5, but then [email protected] is only 4.5. The Vortex website now shows a more probable 288ft/1000yards, but who knows?

David
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Old Monday 22nd July 2019, 06:21   #36
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Dennis,

I first heard excited whispers about a new top spec Kamakura AK x42 model being offered 3 or 4 years ago, but the weight and price was the show stopper then. Looks like Vortex have taken up the challenge and I'm certainly looking forward to checking them out. Hoping they will arrive for Birdfair next month. I won't know about the CA until then.

Unfortunately Vortex made multiple errors in their description and specifications when the range was announced, and last thing I heard from the British distributor was they still hadn't sorted out the mess. On most websites the FoV of the 12x50 is given as 5.5, but then [email protected] is only 4.5. The Vortex website now shows a more probable 288ft/1000yards, but who knows?

David
They look interesting. You can tell they have AK prisms by the shape of the binocular.
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Old Monday 22nd July 2019, 06:34   #37
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They look interesting. You can tell they have AK prisms by the shape of the binocular.
It's not something I would rely on, but objectives of an AK would be a little more widely separated than the eyepieces, and are usually a bit longer than their SP equivalents.

One of the major discrepancies I mentioned is that the Vortex website doesn't mention AK prisms, but the material they sent out to their distributors clearly does.
http://www.newprouk.co.uk/vortex/pro...binocular.html

David
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Old Monday 22nd July 2019, 09:45   #38
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It's not something I would rely on, but objectives of an AK would be a little more widely separated than the eyepieces, and are usually a bit longer than their SP equivalents.

One of the major discrepancies I mentioned is that the Vortex website doesn't mention AK prisms, but the material they sent out to their distributors clearly does.
http://www.newprouk.co.uk/vortex/pro...binocular.html

David
The Vortex UHD's look similar to the Maven B.2's which have AK Prism's. Kamakura design similarity?
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Old Monday 22nd July 2019, 10:38   #39
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Might well be related, but don't know how closely.

David
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Old Monday 22nd July 2019, 11:26   #40
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Unfortunately Vortex made multiple errors in their description and specifications when the range was announced, and last thing I heard from the British distributor was they still hadn't sorted out the mess. On most websites the FoV of the 12x50 is given as 5.5, but then [email protected] is only 4.5. The Vortex website now shows a more probable 288ft/1000yards, but who knows?
Years ago I had an exchange of mails pointing out to the German Vortex distributor that he was doing himself a disservice by converting FoV in ft. directly into metres. 100 yds.(300 ft.) @ 1000 yds. is exactly the same angle as 100 m @ 1000 m, so conversion is simply a multiplication or division by 3.
Even the specification sheet delivered with my 2011 built Swarovski ATM 65 shows a 42 m FoV as 138 ft.!!!

Incidentally, I think an offset of the optical axis can be achieved with either S-P or A-K prisms but is only mandatory on binoculars with large objectives to achieve an acceptable minimum IPD.
As these were intended for low light applications, S-P prisms would have been the poorer choice, needing an aluminized or silvered reflecting surface up to the turn of the century, and also requiring two additional air/glass surfaces compared to A-K prisms.
Many binoculars with S-P prisms show a small discrepancy between ocular and objective spacing.

John
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Old Monday 22nd July 2019, 13:00   #41
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John,

It seems the feet and metres thing causes more confusion than it should, but then we still buy beer in 568.261ml quantities and want to know my car fuel consumption in miles per 1.20095 US gallon.

I know models like the SP Kite Bonelli 2.0 x42 have an unusually obvious offset, but it normally seems modest in most smaller SP binoculars.

David
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Old Wednesday 24th July 2019, 14:50   #42
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Chuck,

Are you referring to the Allbino 2011 test of the Viper HD 10x42 that scored 140.9/170? Back then the Viper had dull, distinctly creamy colour balance, the contrast and effective resolution and CA were nothing special. The 2016 Swarovski SLC was yards better on all those points yet scored just 139.8/170. I know as an astrophysicist Arek likes flat fields of view and low distortion so it's no surprise the Vanguard Endeavour EDII 10x42 scored well, but that very odd colour balance kills contrast after sunset, and the super critical eye positioning on the 10x42 makes it a bit of a pain to use. Regardless of a score of 144.8/170 I wouldn't put it anywhere close to the top of my tree.

I should acknowledge the colour of the Viper HD has improved since 2011, but not enough to sway my own opinion on the advantages of the Razor. If you're not convinced that the Razor HD offers better optical performance than the Viper HD, then stick with the Viper. Please, just be wary of justifying it with an Allbinos score.

Cheers,

David
David,

I'm curious as to what year Vipers HDs you owned? The two I've owned(8X32, still have and 8X42) certainly displayed no creamy color balance. Also, what year Razor HD did you own? There have been several renditions of Vipers/Razors.

As far as the color balance of the Endeavor ED II vs sunset....I would think that would come into play well after most birders are on their way home.

Allbino's test....like any test/review there are some things that is great info and then some items that just doesn't apply to me. For instance I know of only two places to see actual light transmission data. Pretty awesome info. I also know I have never used a binocular tripod mount as I always use either the Snapzoom universal tripod mount or the Swarovski UTA. Of course I wouldn't put the Endeavor ED II in my list of top three binoculars but it certainly is in my top three binoculars less than $500. Regardless it IS impressive that the reviewer DOES think enough of that binocular TO rank it so highly.
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Old Wednesday 24th July 2019, 17:00   #43
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Chuck,

If you haven't noticed the colour characteristics I described, or not convinced by the Allbinos spectra, then I don't suppose there is much I can do to persuade you that these colour difference are pretty obvious to some. They not only influence purchases, but users also know which binocular to choose for use in different light conditions.

I've probably tried and compared around 50 MIJ Viper HDs and half that number of thr Razor HD in the last few years and know their characteristics pretty well. I've only tried around 15 samples of the Endeavour EDII, but have owned one for several years, but it only gets an outing on the sunniest of days.

David

P.S. "Regardless it IS impressive that the reviewer DOES think enough of that binocular TO rank it so highly". On the contrary, as has been pointed out many times on the forum, it shows how fundamentally misleading totalling scores can be as a guide to performance.

Last edited by typo : Thursday 25th July 2019 at 07:52.
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Old Monday 29th July 2019, 22:35   #44
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Chuck,

If you haven't noticed the colour characteristics I described, or not convinced by the Allbinos spectra, then I don't suppose there is much I can do to persuade you that these colour difference are pretty obvious to some. They not only influence purchases, but users also know which binocular to choose for use in different light conditions.

I've probably tried and compared around 50 MIJ Viper HDs and half that number of thr Razor HD in the last few years and know their characteristics pretty well. I've only tried around 15 samples of the Endeavour EDII, but have owned one for several years, but it only gets an outing on the sunniest of days.

David

P.S. "Regardless it IS impressive that the reviewer DOES think enough of that binocular TO rank it so highly". On the contrary, as has been pointed out many times on the forum, it shows how fundamentally misleading totalling scores can be as a guide to performance.
David:
I am curious, where in the world could you find, and have a desire to try that many examples of a Vortex binocular ?

Jerry
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Old Tuesday 30th July 2019, 04:28   #45
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Jerry,

I could come up with a long and convoluted answer, but it's really just down to the product of time opportunity, curiosity and a lousy memory for secondary detail.

David
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