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Zoom scope versus camera zoom (1 Viewer)

J

Josef

Well-known member
I've used both but I'm starting this thread to see if there are any particular reasons why one should have a preference for using one over the other.

My first setup was a 20-60 zoom EP with a 1-3x camera. Other than a few experimental tries I ended up using the scope zoom set at 20x and always used the camera zoom to compose the image.

My present setup uses a fixed 21x eyepiece with again a 1-3x camera, specifically kowa 883 scope with an eyepiece designed for the 820 series and adapter to fit the 883. Camera is a sony w300 which I think works well with the fixed eyepiece providing no vignetting all the way through the zoom range. When I first started with this setup I found the 2-3x settings gave sharp results but 1-2X did not so I modified my adapter. My adapter now has a spacer which slides off to get sharp results at 1-2x zoom. Other than the spacer hassle I'm pretty pleased with the the results.

Generally my shooting range is 15-100' and once in a while I'd like to extend it but if I do it becomes an adapter issue. Because of extreme for shortening I don't know if its worth it.

Any direction or comments would be appreciated.

Joe
 
Just get out and practice...You will note that light is important in digiscoping. You will also find that there is more noise issue with digiscoping too...The benefits are that you can get real close, much closer than a camera and lens only. So if you are not selling your photos to national geographic, you will have a great thing to enjoy.

Also....digiscoping is meant for a particular type of bird. I usually find digiscoping works best for larger birds, shorebirds, raptors, etc etc...and for some birds that enjoy perching in trees. But for those fluttering and very active birds, you just can't digiscope too much.
 
Jim,

Good point - practice, I started practicing in 2004 and this is what I've come up with http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showgallery.php?ppuser=9499&cat=500 for my gallery pics.

I agree with much of your comments except the smaller bird one. If you look at my gallery you will not see a raptor. Smaller birds and ducks for example are more difficult to capture but then the reward seems greater.

But getting back to my main question, what works best for digiscoping with a scope? Using the scopes zoom eyepiece or the camera's zoom. I'm not saying that we can't use both some time or another however considering general use the minimal time we have taking the pic it seems having a system to make it go faster would mean one or the other. I'm just wondering what others think in regards to this issue?

Joe
 
Jose..I think it depends on the quality you are speaking of. If you have a quality scope and eyepiece, such as an expensive Swaro or Kowa etc...I would think the quality resides in the scope zoom itself....up to a point. While you can still zoom past 30x, it loses light when you do. The camera zoom I feel adds noise. I was reading it is almost best to not zoom with the camera and keep at 1x ....and play with the scope up to 30. You still get great magnification. The key as always...you guessed it...be close to the bird.

Nice shots ...:)
 
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Jim,

I don't consider your 1x comment credible - a couple days ago in about 3 hours of scoping I shot around 250 pics all at 3 power. My camera has an excellent burst mode.

And unless someone explains otherwise I don't see a difference between camera and scope zoom. If the sensor sees the same image what difference does it make in how the image gets there?

I agree you get the best quality the closer you are to the subject, but that is like saying to get perfect results don't push it, buy a descent dslr with a 300mm and sit in a chair next to a feeder. The more I digiscope the further I want to expand on its capabilities.

A short time ago there was an incredible pic in the gallery of a falcon taken at 450' - my favorite pic is one I took of a small bird at 16'. To be able to have the flexibility to do both with the same equipment is what I think digiscoping is about.

Joe
 
Joe...I agree...Digiscoping is something that grows on a person. It is more cumbersome and a person has to essentially be 'more set up' as opposed to a camera and lens where you have a bit more play in how you shoot and do so much faster.

But the closeness you can get by digiscoping is simply amazing. And....do be honest, are these pictures for you or are you selling them on the side for extra cash? If they are just for you, the only way you are going to notice some of the extra noise is by blowing them 100% or there-abouts. I really love digiscoping for the technique is more difficult but I feel the difficulty of it all, almost draws me closer to knowing my subjects (birds or other wildlife) since I have to be patient and wait and do more digiscoping as opposed to just snapping off 50 pics of the same bird in 10 seconds....

Now, don't get me wrong, I enjoy both digiscoping and camera+lens but feel there is a place for each and more importantly, there are times where and when I prefer one over the other. ...jim
 
Thanks Paul, my 20-60 will be arriving in about a week and I'll set up a test. I suppose the quality of my Zeiss camera lens has made it difficult for me to detect.

Joe
 
Trying 20-60

My Kowa 20-60 arrived and before I had it home I was experimenting hand held (which I never do). I was near a lake so I went to see some gulls, eye viewing. There sure isn't any comparison between this zoom and my old one other than the name Kowa. A couple days later I found a way of using the removable eyecup wrapped with stiff paper to allow my adapter to fit on the eyepiece: I tested DOF, focusing and general use in my yard. After doing this a second time I felt I had a procedure down that would work in the field.

DOF is similar for both EPs, however when going to higher mag and greater distance the increase in DOF is nice. I didn't shoot much at 60x and found the camera having a more difficult time focusing starting at 50x, now to working in the field.

First of all I noticed using the 2 zooms adds another step so some shots are missed. Second I noticed finding the bird with both zooms wide was easier, I normally use a sight and am using it again so taking more distant shots is easier. Thirdly I noticed I was having a lot more fun. My 21x was so limiting and now I feel plus 100' is comfortible.

One thing that surprised me was the detail I could get at the greater range. On my first success I took a robin at about 125’ holding a couple crickets, when I opened the image on the screen I found a grasshopper next to the robin and could see texture on the grasshoppers wings and the reflection in its eye. I typically make 8x10 prints and if I like them put them on my gallery and was surprised so much detail gets lost.

For tracking in the brush at 30’ can’t beat my 21x but I think it will be taking a rest for awhile.
 

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Josef said:
One thing that surprised me was the detail I could get at the greater range. On my first success I took a robin at about 125’ holding a couple crickets, when I opened the image on the screen I found a grasshopper next to the robin and could see texture on the grasshoppers wings and the reflection in its eye. I typically make 8x10 prints and if I like them put them on my gallery and was surprised so much detail gets lost.
Click to expand...
This is what makes digiscoping special for me....I love the close-up you can get which is way more than a camera from a distance. Now, if you have the same situation, 10 meters away, a camera will do just fine too but usually with digiscoping it allows you to view wildlife from afar. This distance avoids the spooking of many wildlife and allows you to see more of them in their natural world..... A huge advantage to digiscoping.

Also, because it takes a bit longer to get that 'shot'...you the birder will spend more time in the field concentrating on that one bird or insect, thus allowing you more 'one on one' time with that species. I find I pay much more attention to the wildlife when digiscoping than I do with a camera+long lens..... just my thoughts... jim
 
Imans,
Since this thread is in the Digiscoping Forum and a place many beginners may look I thought I should mention I didn't start this thread for anything a beginner should follow. I started the thread in hopes of getting input from experienced users. Beginners usually buy zoom EPs which can be OK but save some time and practice with either one of the zooms FIXED. Get the basics down like focus and then move on. When using the fixed EP my hit rate in the field was close to 80%, practicing with the 20-60 it was less than 20%.
Joe
 
Josef said:
Imans,
Beginners usually buy zoom EPs which can be OK but save some time and practice with either one of the zooms FIXED. Get the basics down like focus and then move on. When using the fixed EP my hit rate in the field was close to 80%, practicing with the 20-60 it was less than 20%.
Joe
Click to expand...

Yes...but I like others are not into the fixed zoom...so not sure I follow all of your remarks. The same thinking applies though whether you use a digital or a zoom lens
 
Imans, all along I've been talking about having both zoom on the camera and also on the scope. All I'm saying is when starting its more important to get some good shots than to try and master 500 footers. Start with a wide angle and get the technique down, then move forward.
 
Josef,
One important point re your original question is camera-eyepiece -compatibility, which can vary a lot. With your earlier zoom setup you had an eyepiece (old Kowa 20-60x?), which practically had sufficient ER for digiscoping only at 20x. Now your new Kowa zoom should work at almost any powers with a camera that has a short zoom (3x optical). Should you have a 5x camera, the situation would be different.

Usually the easiest/safest way is to have the zoom eyepiece at lowest power (best ER) and zoom with the camera, but if there is sufficient ER beyond 20x, it gives conveniently some more reach and may let your camera to work at 'sharper' zoom range.

Best regards,

Ilkka :t:
 
Ilkka,

Thanks for your comment and yes it was an old 20-60 kowa. My camera is a 3x (sony w300).

After work today I ran a short test at about 225 ft. With the camera at 3x and scope at about 30, I focused on a tree trunk (lighting wasn’t great but adequate). Then I took successive shots decreasing the camera zoom while increasing the scope zoom so that the same area of the tree trunk was covered. I was a little surprised with the results since it seemed inconsistent with my field tries, my sharpest results occurred with the camera at low power (1.5x and 1.3x) and the scope zoom high (wish now I had checked what it was).

On my last setup when I started with a fixed scope EP I found I was getting my best results with the camera above 2x and below it got fuzzy. After testing I ended up with a spacer being removed to allow the camera lens closer to the EP when shooting with the camera below 2x. On the current setup, as in the test, I have the camera lens as close to the zoom EP as possible. Sort of the opposite result of the fixed EP but if there is the will there probably is a way. The eye view through the 20-60 is surprisingly clear at 60 power so it sure would be nice to be able to use it digiscoping.

Joe
 
I had some time to spend with the 20-60 EP this last week end and came to a couple conclusions. One test I ran was to determine results of similar combined zoom, 20 x 3 = 60, 1.5 x 40 = 60, or1.3 x 50 = 65. I also did the test with combined zoom at 90 and 120. By examining the results side by side I could see the higher scope zoom had sharper resolution. Now I can see what Paul was trying to tell me.

With the fixed EP all I had to work with was the camera zoom so in early field tests with the 20-60 I kept up the same habit and had a low hit rate. On Sunday I went to the field and used the 40-60 heavily and came up with much better results and very high hit rate despite lousey conditions (wind). The subjects were non active birds but detail was better considering the reach. Dove was at about 150ft and hawk about 90ft.
 

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The IQ on these is pretty good i reckon. Nice work

The bird you say is a Hawk, looks like a bird called a Nightjar in the UK
 
Ah yes, when you said Hawk, thats a raptor here. It looks identical to our Nightjar, so i suspect they are one and the same, if not very closely related
 
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